[Bob15]

After reading all of the previous posts I did a search on DogPile using just the word "Bryston" and found three web sites on the first page of results that are selling Bryston products well below retail, claiming to be A stock & factory fresh.  A brand new (or stated so) 4B-SST for USD $2,495.  One openly listed that they are not an authorized dealer, that they use an associated dealer network for supply & service and the original manufacturer will not honour any warranty.  They did state that they will dup ...

Here is my suggestion to the post above, and the question asked earlier by a poster "if bryston knows which serial numbers are going to each dealer wouldn't it be simple to figure out who is selling the grey market units" to which JT replied, "only if there was a warranty issue and that is usually long after the event."

WELL.........why doesn't Bryston buyback a couple of these amps from each of these three websites, then from the serial number find out which friggin' "legitimate" dealer is scamming them?  And then immediately warn them once or revoke their authorized dealership.  Makes sense to me.  No?

[95bcwh]

I wonder, Bryston has such a good reputation, it can easily do without middlemen, why not start selling direct & cut-out the 40%-50% mark-up price which gives dealership a fat margin?

In that case, there's no need for every customer to keep their receipt because every product will be sold direct, and with the lower price means bigger sales volume, more profit for Bryston. ..more value for customer ..

but zero value for the middlemen...

[Bob15]

I wonder, Bryston has such a good reputation, it can easily do without middlemen, why not start selling direct & cut-out the 40%-50% mark-up price which gives dealership a fat margin?

In that case, there's no need for every customer to keep their receipt because every product will be sold direct, and with the lower price means bigger sales volume, more profit for Bryston. ..more value for customer ..

but zero value for the middlemen...

I'd rather have my question answered.  It seems just too obvious a solution.

[Phil A]

I wonder, Bryston has such a good reputation, it can easily do without middlemen, why not start selling direct & cut-out the 40%-50% mark-up price which gives dealership a fat margin?

In that case, there's no need for every customer to keep their receipt because every product will be sold direct, and with the lower price means bigger sales volume, more profit for Bryston. ..more value for customer ..

but zero value for the middlemen...

I'd rather have my question answered.  It seems just too obvious a solution.

Bob, you could try sending them an E-Mail asking if it is the latest version incl. front panel membrane switch (just to try to play a bit on the not so informed side) and ask them if they have the serial nos. or date manuf.  If you want to send the links, I'd be happy to do it.  All they could do is not answer.

In the real world, Bryston can't do a private investigation of every dealer anywhere in the world.  There are shops that do voltage conversions so there is no guarntee where such things can turn up.  I've seen seller's list things as dealer's demos that in fact were stuff they bought from a sales person working at a dealer (who obviously got an accomodation sale).  What is Bryston to do, check every employee (and every relative of the owner and spouses too - look at what Wayne Gretzky's wife was involved with) of every dealer too?

So, in summary, people should recognize that conditions warrant some change and that the company can only do so much.  I feel like significant parts of this thread have been unfairly trying to burn poor James Tanner to the stake.  James Tanner has always been great on dealing with customer issues.  Long before I joined this board, I got prompt and accurate answers to my questions.

[Mike36]

"I don't get this unauthorized dealer business. People don't just make Bryston in their garages...the units all start their lives at the Bryston plant, and are either purchased directly from Bryston or through an authorized dealer. All thse units you claim are "unauthorized" at SOME POINT came from an authorized dealer, or Bryston directly".

James what do you say about this?

[Watson]

"I don't get this unauthorized dealer business. People don't just make Bryston in their garages...the units all start their lives at the Bryston plant, and are either purchased directly from Bryston or through an authorized dealer. All thse units you claim are "unauthorized" at SOME POINT came from an authorized dealer, or Bryston directly".

That's true.  The problem is that Bryston, like most high end audio companies, enforces minimum pricing policies on its authorized dealers.  So some authorized dealers shift stock to grey market dealers who sell for less.  This hurts authorized dealers who abide by their dealer agreements.

Of course, eliminating the price fixing policy would instantly solve the grey market problem.  The alleged problem with this is that dealers would shift to carrying lines from other manufacturers who still engage in price fixing in order to maintain their margins.  (There are a host of assumptions underlying that reasoning which may or may not be true.)

[skrivis]

That's true.  The problem is that Bryston, like most high end audio companies, enforces minimum pricing policies on its authorized dealers.  So some authorized dealers shift stock to grey market dealers who sell for less.  This hurts authorized dealers who abide by their dealer agreements.

Of course, eliminating the price fixing policy would instantly solve the grey market problem.  The alleged problem with this is that dealers would shift to carrying lines from other manufacturers who still engage in pr ...

Well, even on grey market items, Bryston still makes their money. It's only the dealers that play by the rules that get hurt by grey market.

You can certainly argue that the end customer gets hurt by grey market too.

What bothers me about Bryton's new approach is that it puts all of the burden on the end customer. I question whether the end customer should be responsible for policing the dealer network.

I'm buying a Bryston product. I find someone who says they're an authorized dealer. Why do I have to do anything more than that?

Some companies tacitly encourage grey market sales because it sells more product. I'm not saying Bryston does this, but such behavior is at the heart of the grey market problem.

So I buy an amp. It says Bryston on the front panel. Unless it's a counterfeit, I'm leaning towards Bryston owing me some kind of service.

With computer hard drives and other parts there's a problem because the manufacturer may sell to an OEM at a low price which includes an agreement for the OEM to handle warranty and service work. If the OEM then sells excess product into the grey market, we do have a problem.

AFAIK, Bryston is not in a similar situation. They're just trying to protect their honest dealers. I'd say it's their job to police their dealer network and not mine. It would seem easy enough to do, and it would have immediate results.

If I do buy a Bryston product, I will do whatever I can to insure I'm buying from a legit dealer. I'm going to protect myself as best I can.

But what about the less savvy customer who has heard about Bryston for years and goes to buy one? How are they to know that they're buying from a legit dealer? They probably won't even know there's a problem until 10 years down the road, or maybe not at all.

I really do think companies should handle problems with their dealers directly. They've got a contact with them in most cases, and the number of dealers is small compared to the number of customers. The end customer is just the poor shnook who gets stiffed. The company should do what it can to protect the end customer, not use them to police the dealers.

[skrivis]

That's true.  The problem is that Bryston, like most high end audio companies, enforces minimum pricing policies on its authorized dealers.  So some authorized dealers shift stock to grey market dealers who sell for less.  This hurts authorized dealers who abide by their dealer agreements.

Of course, eliminating the price fixing policy would instantly solve the grey market problem.  The alleged problem with this is that dealers would shift to carrying lines from other manufacturers who still engage in pr ...

There will always be customers that only pay attention to price. They don't consider the added service that a good dealer provides to add value.

On the other hand, there are local dealers that don't really add any value.

I tend to frown on fixed prices. I lean towards the dealer charging prices that are commensurate with the service they offer. It's up to the dealer to then justify their prices. And maybe the dealer doesn't really want bottom-feeders as customers? They're likely to want wholesale prices and 5 star service, then they'll just jump to someone else who gives them $1 off.

But I do understand that dealers that do offer service and have an actual store and let people audition products need to make money. It certainly isn't fair for people to come in and use their time and facilities, and then buy off the net.

I was a cheap SOB back when I was in school. I'm sure the local dealers didn't like me much. Since then I've learned that there are times to go for low prices and times to pay more and get more.

[pbash]

I think this new warranty will hurt Bryston authorized dealer sales in the long run.

I have a 2yo 9B-SST, a 5yo BP-25 and a 15yo 3B-ST and for me the price was a stretch each time. The sound is great but the major reason I paid the price was the security of the 20yr warranty. Now, I'm one of those people who has trouble keeping track of his birth certificate and social security card so how likely do you think it'll be that I'll keep track of the bill of sale for 20 years?

The pre-0608 stuff will go up in value and desirability because of the pure *lack of hassle* (and keeping a receipt, unless its made of steel and permanently attached to the product -- you know, like a serial number -- for 20 years is a *BIG* hassle). At the same time, there will always be a pool of "less" desirable post 0608 stuff without bills of sale at relative bottom drawer pricing to undercut authorized dealer sales (and we all know how solid Bryston gear is so out-of-warranty purchases aren't that *big* a gamble). For at least the next 20 years, until all the pre-0608 gear goes off warranty, the used market is going to continue to be strong and continue to be at the expense of the authorized dealer and new product sales.

So nothing really changes except customer dissapointment with Bryston as James has heard on this thread.

[rhart]

I really don't see the problem with the new warrantee rules. It simply bifurcates the used market for those products that fall under the new requirements. Those with point of sale receits will be worth more than those without. It will be interesting to see how much more people will be willing to pay...

One potential problem, I suppose, will be fake bills of sales that will need to be cleared with Bryston before purchase. This creates more work for them, but we're talking about a company that offers a 20 year warrantee and  responds daily to emails and forum questions. VERY customer service oriented.

If the new warrantee system helps Bryston maintain its level of support, R&D, and product offerings, I'm all for it.

[samurai]

why not make it life time guarantee as long as there is proof purchase from authorised dealer.  because right now it seems this new rule will only serve bryston not the customer.

[eddiem67]

After reading all of the previous posts I did a search on DogPile using just the word "Bryston" and found three web sites on the first page of results that are selling Bryston products well below retail, claiming to be A stock & factory fresh.  A brand new (or stated so) 4B-SST for USD $2,495.  One openly listed that they are not an authorized dealer, that they use an associated dealer network for supply & service and the original manufacturer will not honour any warranty.  They did state that they will dup ...

But its websites like this one that keeps the honest Bryston dealer (like myself) from selling products.  The biggest thing I hear is...I can get online for 500 less...the internet has become the small business owners enemy.

[skrivis]

But its websites like this one that keeps the honest Bryston dealer (like myself) from selling products.  The biggest thing I hear is...I can get online for 500 less...

This really depends upon what the customer wants. If they don't want the extra service that you provide, then they likely won't want to pay for it either.

I think a possible problem is that you're not making it apparent to potential customers that you do anything to justify the higher prices you charge. (This could be a failure to make it apparent on your part, or a failure in perception on the customer's part. Either way, you're likely to be the one who has to put in the work to change things.) You're not showing that you add anything of value to the transaction. (Having a local showroom _is_ a value add, so that's something you can stress.)

Or maybe you don't want the bottomfeeders as customers anyway? They tend to want the best product and the best service and still want to pay the lowest prices.

Maybe most customers are used to lousy service from vendors and figure they might as well just go to the cheapest one?

Please do remember that there could be a number of viewpoints on this.

the internet has become the small business owners enemy.

Or the small business owner's biggest friend. Just ask any number of the manufacturers on AC that sell pretty much only on the net. Ask all of those people who are making a nice living selling on Ebay.

It depends upon your viewpoint.


I'd also like to say that I've had wonderful service from some vendors, including local brick and mortar, as well as from mail order or internet vendors. And then I've had really poor service from a variety of types of vendor. I'll go back to the vendors that offer the superior products and service, even if I have to pay a bit more to do so.

[Phil A]

With the HT boom, there has been a boom in the custom HT installation business.  Many legit installers (I know some) have businesses and are authorized dealers for selected products.  They enter into agreements with other installers around the country to get different brands for the customers in their market.  They may acquire things for a job and have a customer back out or change their mind.  They then may sell equipment as non-authorized dealer.

Bryston cannot prevent companies from entering into such agreements.  Many of the cos. involved are reputable cos.  Like any other group, there always can be a bad apple or two.  So it gets to be a very complicated situation of policing every dealer's store, every employee and relative of such dealers, any groups that the dealer belongs to for the purpose of obtaining equipment for its customers.

[Levi]

Here is what I think

Hi James, Thank you for the head's up.  Hopefully I (or my son)  will not have warranty issues in the future.

[opusone]

Hey Levi,

Is that a dead a** or a dead horse?  It's kind of hard to tell.

 

opusone

[Levi]

It looks like beating a dead cow. Huh.    

Hey Levi,

Is that a dead a** or a dead horse?  It's kind of hard to tell.

 

opusone

[opusone]

Ahhh....now I know how 'they' get my filet mignon so soft.

Scary...I think I'm going to switch to tofu.