Audio Technica AT440ml...AT150mlx cartridges = upgrade-itis?

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 9 Feb 2006, 09:27 pm »

This is really one fine, fine cartridge once you dial it in to the right geometry, use a medium to heavy mass arm and don't pay it no matter for the first 20 hours + of play time (it's very screechy in that timeframe).

It's already a great tracker, that becomes all the better and more dynamic after the van Alstine/Longhorn mod to it (in whole or bastardized part). Really, it's amazing that this cartridge sells for under $90 everywhere new. I have no idea what $$$ you must spend to match it in every area it does well...tracking, dynamics, bass, great bounce. Yeah, it's not got that luxurious midrange of even my Ortofon X5-MC ($200 at Jacks Music Factory), but it's preferable in every other way (except, occasionally, with classical). And, when I'm horny

(ha - just seeing if anyone is reading my blather here)

The next step in their line, the top of their offering list in the US at least, is the AT-150mlx.

It has a few enticing enhancements to the AT440ml...namely, a gold plated boron cantilever (versus more mundane aluminum alloy) and mu-metal shield between left and right generator system. I don't see any other differences except for fancy gold color on more the expensive sibling.

Further, I asked A-T today and they affirmed, that the replacement atn150mlx styli will fit the AT-440ml just dandy.

It's a helluva spread moving to the AT-150mlx - the lowest I've seen for US retailer is $299.00 (J & R). Audiocubes seems to be grey marketing these at $269....I'd dubious working with them. Anyone out there have experience with this cartridge? Not much chatter out there on this model on the net...as opposed to the nearly 1/4 priced similar AT440ml.

One possible alternative is to just buy the AT150mlx stylus for $225 online when I wear this one thru....using the 440ml body (as it's already aligned right on my table - a bugger to do all over again). All I'd miss is the mu-metal shielding...which is questionable whether my system is up to hearing it's benefit anyway.

A boron cantilever, however, may well be a notable upgrade path

Toka · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Sep 2006, 08:39 pm »

I'm interested in reading anyone's opinions of the AT150MLX...compared to something like a Denon DL-110 if possible. Hard to find solid reviews in English (or any language, for that matter).

lcrim · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Sep 2006, 09:16 pm »

Chair Guy;
The AT440ML is a high compliance MM cart which is most at home on a low mass tonearm. You can get it to work w/ a medium mass tonearm but a heavy arm will make the resonant frequency too low, so I wouldn't overdue it, then it won't track warped records very well. Within its limits it is a very nice tracking cart that I found to be very unfussy and easy to live with.
I personally would be very hesitant about making changes to the cantilever asembly as the one that comes with it works rather well. But chacon a son gout.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Sep 2006, 09:56 pm »

Hey Larry,

I wrote this many months ago in conjunction with the JVC DD unit i had...which had a low-to-medium S shaped Japanese tonearm typical of that era.

The 440ml worked good after 40 hour break in (strident before that), improved measurably when I made my home made damping trough with tin foil and 20,000 cst silicone (inspired by KAB/Kevin's creation), then really got good with addition of the Longhorn mod.

On my Rega 250 arm now, it never sounded good...as this is more of a medium mass arm I'm told. Exactly as you state, it tracked good to great in the JVC arm, and fairly poorly in the Rega.

A-T did confirm that the 150mlx replacement needle fits right in the 440ml. You're mostly swapping out a 'better' boron line stylus for aluminum one this way...but you miss out on the slightly upgraded internals of the 150 model (which seems to amount to nothing more than PC-OCC coils/Pure Copper - Ohno Continuous Cast).

The problem is A-T priced the 440ml so keenly at $89, it's hard to fathom the betterment that and exta $180.00-$200.00 will get you to buy the AT150mlx ($269-$299) retail or so. In fact, replacement stylus for the 440ml is like $75 and a whole new one is $89...making replacing the whole cartridge somewhat smarter than just the stylus.

Damn stupid sales and marketing people (of which I am one

)

John / TCG

Quote from: lcrim on 11 Sep 2006, 09:16 pm

Chair Guy;
The AT440ML is a high compliance MM cart which is most at home on a low mass tonearm. You can get it to work w/ a medium mass tonearm but a heavy arm will make the resonant frequency too low, so I wouldn't overdue it, then it won't track warped records very well. Within its limits it is a very nice tracking cart that I found to be very unfussy and easy to live with.
I personally would be very hesitant about making changes to the cantilever asembly as the one that comes with it works rather well. But chacon a son gout.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Sep 2006, 12:01 am »

Well, I took a look at my old AT440ml cartridge last night....it sounded bad in my relatively new Rega 250 arm because I musta' 'dinked' it in trying to install it. The suspenson seems too bouncy now compared to when it was new. I have heard it worked fine with other Rega arms, so I think I now have my reason for it not working well.

So, I looked on the internet today.

It appears that in the ever-confusing nomenclature of Audio Technica, the original AT440ml (officially called the AT440ML/OCC which is the one I dinked) has been replaced by a AT440MLa version. The specs are different (worse) in stated frequency response and channel separation...and the output is a full 1 mv less at 4.0 (this is perhaps better or perhaps worse).

But if you read very carefully inot the specs you notice that it no longer has coil windings of PC-OCC (Perfect Crystal - Ohno Continuous Cast). This is a very beneficial, patented process making for very long grain copper wiring only done in Japan that all the higher end AT offerings have had. Now, only the pricier AT09 moving coil and AT150mlx cartridges feature it.

So, tho I've been very happy with the AT440ML in the past...the new 'a' model may not be as good value.

But, it now makes the leap to the AT150MLx model a bit more substantial...as that model has wider frequency response, lower coil inductance (350 vs. 490 mH...yields further high frequency response), a boron cantilver with gold evaporate, PC-OCC coil windings, mu-metal shielding, anti-resonant ceramic block and better channel separation figures.

The AT440MLa is still $85-$99 all over and I've seen the AT150MLx for $269.00.

So, caveat emptor when buying the AT440ML now....it may not sound a glowingly good as it's forebear, the AT440ML/OCC

Jampot · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 11:34 am »

Ordered a week or so ago and it shipped on the 19th - just checked the invoice and it's an 'a'.....

Have to wait a while and see how it compares with the (resurrected) Shure M95HE I'm using at the moment. I bought an old guys complete system recently on ebay and it included a Technics SL1600 so I have it (at least for the time being) in my office sytem, and the Shure sounds quite well in there, but it is VERY old. I seem to remember using it in an old Garrard Zero 100 years ago and found it in the back of a drawer

Enjoyed re-reading your 'it can be done for $400...' thread TCG (which was where I found the AT440 reference) and was struck by the similarity of your old JVC and the Technics. I must research our local equivalant of the 'plasticlay' and see what I can do in that area, and when the cartridge arrives I will look at giving it 'Longhorns'

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 03:05 pm »

Hey Jampot,

JVC is a wholly owned subsidiary of Matshushita (Panasonic)...the JVC even has a few Matsu labelled parts inside. So, it's no wonder they are somewhat similar. I have tended to prefer JVC renditions over Panasonic in a few categories...but it may be sheer subjectivity at work, not actually any better.

I owned a M97HE waaaay back...on a JVC JLA1 belt driver circa 1978, followed by a Grace F-9 that seriously bettered it. I also have owned the (last version) of Shure's V15...I never could get it to sing.

The AT440ML was at least as good as the Grace (and that it viewed by many as pretty much a classic) and I felt better than the Shure's I owned.

The AT440ML/OCC came in a very nice box, with even PC-OCC leads as part of the package. When you get the 'a' version, let us know if it is still packaged with it. I suspect a little more budgetary trimming was had and AT no longer uses PC-OCC wiring for coils, but also does not ship it new 'a' version with nice PC-OCC headshell leads.

It may not matter much as I suspect the AT440ML to still be quite excellent for under $100.00, but the internet is quite democratizing in fully spelling out things.

Here's the best place pricewise on the 'net for Plast-i-Clay: http://www.allartsupplies.com/item.php?articleId=120 You will find several pounds inside will greatly improve your Technics.

Quote from: Jampot on 25 Sep 2006, 11:34 am

Ordered a week or so ago and it shipped on the 19th - just checked the invoice and it's an 'a'.....

Have to wait a while and see how it compares with the (resurrected) Shure M95HE I'm using at the moment. I bought an old guys complete system recently on ebay and it included a Technics SL1600 so I have it (at least for the time being) in my office sytem, and the Shure sounds quite well in there, but it is VERY old. I seem to remember using it in an old Garrard Zero 100 years ago and found it in the back of a drawer

Enjoyed re-reading your 'it can be done for $400...' thread TCG (which was where I found the AT440 reference) and was struck by the similarity of your old JVC and the Technics. I must research our local equivalant of the 'plasticlay' and see what I can do in that area, and when the cartridge arrives I will look at giving it 'Longhorns'

Wayner · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 03:27 pm »

Hey Chair Guy,

I have been using my new AT440MLa for 3 weeks now and I love it in my AR-XA turntable. Yes, it still comes with the nice leads that you are looking for. I think this cartridge sounds better than my Sumiko Blue Point Special. Tracking is very graceful and bass, mid's and HF seem just right.

W

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 05:16 pm »

Wayner,

Good to hear that the AT still packages the 440 with the leads...they are nicely made.

I have an old Sumiko Blue Point, re-tipped with a van den Hul stylus, and I think overall I liked my old AT440ML better than it, too

The AT440ML sounds like good CD to me (no particular warmth, not particularly emphasized midrange, not quite luxurious highs, maybe a bit articifical in the highs as opposed to more luxurious Moving Coil highs) ...not at all a bad thing in all I think. Best of all,it really 'bops' to the music.

Factoring in in sub $90.00 price most places, quite remarkable, actually.

Jampot · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 08:52 pm »

Thanks TCG and Wayner!

I feel a lot better now.

My 'crafty' daughter is visiting from Texas and she tells me plasticlay is what we call plasticene - the kids play with it in kindergarten, is that right?

I won't get the cart until she sends it on to me from Tx (in the UK it sells for 89 pounds sterling so it is near half local price), and sounds like it will be a nice improvement on what I have. They brought me Tirade's Bolder modded Teac in their luggage this trip so maybe I need to look for a nice phono stage. At the moment I am listening using the Technics su 8088 that came in the ebay deal and I have a Quad 77 in my main system with a decent phono stage (hmmmm, maybe I should post in the vintage circle!).

Thanks for your comments.

Jim

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 09:09 pm »

Excellent Jim/Jampot - rock on with your bad self with that AT440MLa

You might want to note that you're in the UK within your moniker (go to your 'profile' tab up top to add a location). The assumption is that everybody is in the states as that's the largest contingent here.

If folks know your locale in your post, they might lead you to a closer place to find what you're looking for.

Let us know your thoughts on the AT. BTW, don't make any judgement on it until 20++ hours on it - it's quite icky as it breaks in

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Sep 2006, 11:42 pm »

Just finished a long listening session with the last album by Billy Idol, Whiplash Smile with the new AT440MLa cartridge and I must say........Yum.

The system is:

Turntable: AR-XA (MINT)
Cartridge: Audio Technica AT-440XLa (new)
Pre-amp: Audio by Van Alstine Transendence 8 (new)
Power amp: Audio by Van Alstine 170EX
Speakers: Dynaco A25XL's.
Beer: Miller Light

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Sep 2006, 12:50 am »

Wayner,

If you haven't added the Longhorn horn to that AT, you're missing out. It's clearly the same cartridge with it on; just a little more of the good stuff when you add it

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Sep 2006, 08:40 pm »

Chair Guy,

The Longhorn is on my list but I had to fix a little problem with my AR. When I turned the turntable off, I was getting a spike through the system. But good guy Frank Van Alstine told me where to put a .01 uf 1000 volt disc capacitor and solved the problem! Thanks Frank!

On another note and maybe of interest to you TCG, I have purchased 2 AR-XA turntables this last weekend on eBay and one of them has a bad base. Well, a friend of mine owns a granite company and has lots of black African granite that is going to become the plinth for one of them. I hope to post photos of the project as it delevops. I have always wanted to build a table on a granite slab. If I do it right, I'm hoping for ultra black and quite background! I will for sure mount the AT440MLa into this one.

W

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Sep 2006, 09:03 pm »

Awesome....you're ill, ya' know? aa

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Oct 2006, 09:46 pm »

Well, I did a little research on the subject of the new-ish AT-440MLa; seems it does have the PC-OCC coils of it's forebear, comes with the freebie leads with the package (that's worth $20.00 alone if you need an extra pair!) and the cartridge goes for the same money.

Further, it seems to many that the new version lost a bit of it's hotness on the upper registers and is more balanced throughout. In all, a very fine upgrade on an already outstanding <$90.00 cartridge.

I may just have to see what all the fuss is all about. Incidentally, I found the 440ML/OCC that I had to greatly benefit from a silicone damping trough....but the two (H.O. 2.0 and 2.5 mv) moving coils I have bettered a smaller bit from it. It could be that the moving coils were better suited to the (both Rega 250 and JVC cheapie) arms, or is it because moving magnets kick back some more energy (moving magnets weigh more than moving coils within the body of the cartridge) back into the system and benefit more greatly from damping?

Regardless, it seems damping betters all cartridges somewhat - no matter the type.

Jampot · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 09:01 am »

TCG, You are the man

I don't know that I understand the stuff about the coils and all, but your revised veiw and Wyner's enthusiasm has me going.

The cartridge has arrived in Tx and I just need my daughter to mail it here (as a 'gift' - so I don't pay duty and vat).

The $90 dollars or so showed up on my credit card statement as £51 - a nice saving on the best price I could find it for here, even after the cost of re-mailing it.

Our locations still don't seem to show, I wonder if The Borg missed our post's in Town Square, or it needs a lot of fixing?

Jim

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 05:33 pm »

Right on, Jim

Let us know your thoughts when you receive and break-in the cartridge.

Do NOT make a casual observation about this cartridge until 20 hours minimum are on it...some recommend 50 to fully break it in. It's kinda' awful until it breaks in.

For me, the 440ML/OCC sounded most like CD with low noise, excellent tracking, dynamic, good bass (but complete with tipped up high frequency production)....but left most of the analog virtues in tact. If the new 440MLa actually tamed the erratic frequency response and left the other virtues in tact....this cartridge may be the de facto moving magnet buy well up into the $300.00 range of cartridges

TheBorg is kinda' busy with a new job these days (maybe, exterminating humans for the collective

) ...so I'll bring up the missing location issue to him when I think he has time to hear it.

Wayner · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Oct 2006, 08:35 pm »

TCG,

It was about two weeks of listening (25-30 hours) when I noticed a change in the sound. I usually expect the sound to get worse as I get use to the new cartridge, but this definetly got better. What a cartridge!

I don't want to hi-jack this post with my granite AR project, but CAD drawings are done and I am getting a price on water-jetting holes. I will start different thread on this when it starts to get to a reality stage, but it will feature the AT440MLa cartridge. I can't wait!!!!!!! aa

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Oct 2006, 01:07 am »

Lucky me - my AT440ML/OCC is indeed working. It's a lot spring-ier (compliant) than my other cartridges and appeared to be dinked, but is in fact, not.

Not happy with my vdH re-tipped Sumiko Blue Point overall, I hooked it up today. It wasn't quite as good as I remember it. Then I remembered - I had forgotten the van Alstine Longhorn.

Added the Longhorn, re-balanced the rig and played. WOW! That's fun music - real swing. It is a little on the hot side on the treble (didn't seem to notice when last played a few months ago), highs are still a bit brittle/fake...but with the Longhorn stabilizer attached it's bottom end is terrific. Tracking is stupendous - I'm not noticing any difference with anti-skate or not; the Longhorn is THAT effective. It's very cartridge dependent as a tweek...it was a mild upgrade for the two moving coils, but scrumptious on the A-T.

I highly recommend it Wayner/Jampot.

I forgot to mention earlier that I glued my stylus assembly to the cartridge and got all sorts of benefits in doing so. The A-T stylus fitting method leaves some measure of play in the structure - not helpful for good for audio production

Replacement stylus is almost that of the cartridge itself these days, so no big loss to do it. But, if you are adverse to doing so, use a toothpick-ful of Plast-i-Clay in the joints between the stylus assembly and body to shore up that looseness (recommended by Audio by van Alstine's Audio Basics newsletter of 1982)

I lost a little of that surreal ambiance/imaging from the vdH Blue Point, but made up for gobs more fun in listening, in general.