[Davey]

Hugh,

I can understand if you're not interested in bulk sales of a bunch of units.  However, you've designed a supply that's aimed at a product (The Orion ASP) that has a bunch of users out here! 

If it really is a top-performing product then sell/license the technology to someone who CAN turn out 100 or 200 or more of them.  You'll still get the notoriety/credit for the design and you won't have to do all the tedious work with construction, marketing, etc, etc.

If this PS is just some type of proof-of-concept test mule that was never intended for sale then I guess I misunderstood.  I thought you wanted to sell a bunch.  Intellectual challenges are fine, but if you solve a technical problem that could benefit multiple users in the market then you should figure out a way to make this work available.

My two cents.  Worth what you paid for 'em.

Davey.



Andy,

EE's are not bad guys, but they do think that engineering requires a certain discipline and methodical approach to solving problems.  They are not seat-of-the-pants by nature....usually. 

Davey.

[aurelius]

I hear my alias being used in vain?

Buy the power supply... or don't; no skin off my nose.

There's nothing meaningful I can say in this context... any time I articulate the perceived profound influence of Hugh's power supply, I get painted as a brainless zealot. 

I flatter myself that this is somewhat ironic...

[ctviggen]

Andy,

EE's are not bad guys, but they do think that engineering requires a certain discipline and methodical approach to solving problems.  They are not seat-of-the-pants by nature....usually. 

Davey.

Our Archilles' heel is that we want to know why things are the way they are.  Therefore, if a power supply does improve perceived performance, we'd like to know why.  It's not enough to know that it does.

[andyr]

Our Archilles' heel is that we want to know why things are the way they are.  Therefore, if a power supply does improve perceived performance, we'd like to know why.  It's not enough to know that it does.

I appreciate where you're coming from, ctviggen, but every time I see a comment like that, I can't help thinking of the "EE approach to designing power amps" ... which is typically to make them achieve vanishingly low distortion specs.

Almost without exception, such (by definition ss) amps sound sterile and uninteresting to listen to - as you know, being a member of the Aspen Forum ... whereas amps which are designed/voiced around other parameters do not!   

I'm an applied mathematician myself so I also like to know why things work ... but sometimes IMO, you have to "take a punt" and buy something you can't understand.  Then when you're reaping the benefit of having taken this jump into the unknown, you can try to figure out the "whys" at your leisure. 

Regards,

Andy

[AKSA]

Hi CTV,

Thanks for rocking up to our little forum!

I've just had a good rest, collected my thoughts, and am feeling pretty chipper.  Without pointing the finger at you, or any other EE, let me offer a few points about club membership.

#1  As members of an engineering (and indeed, any other) fraternity, you are naturally proud of your achievements, and most come to base their perceptions of the world on a 'them/us' scenario.  The medicos, attorneys, priesthood and academic professions are likewise structured.  This can get pretty interesting, too, see 'Bodies' a BBC series on hospital politics in Britain for a great example.
#2  The engineer's job is to take known science, and apply it to the world to create real, reliable, economically viable products.  Difficult task, requires method, application, discipline.  Engineers are very planted, seeking to measure and control all the variables, though there are some very dubious products out there for three reasons:  bean counters strangling costs, entrepreneurs cynically exploiting contrived markets, and crackpots.  God knows, there's enough of them.
#3  After a lifetime of success at this profession, most would justly say that there are no problems which cannot be reduced, analysed, and solved.  Therefore there are very few products which cannot be created out of this methodology.  This reductionist view of the physical world is both a strength and a weakness, the latter because it allows of nothing which cannot be analysed by known science and techniques.  After all, everything has an explanation.
#4  Such a world view is exclusive by nature, and any pronouncements made by non-engineers of a 'breakthrough' nature are viewed with suspicion, and often, incredulity and/or hostility.  Galileo dared to suggest the Sun as the center of our Galaxy;  he was not a priest, this made a few waves!  The warm and fuzzy feeling of a fraternity protects and nourishes the group and gives comfort to the mediocre, but it is not true to say that all advances come from such reasonable men as engineers.

Setting aside GB Shaw's famous comment that progress can only depend on 'unreasonable' men, it is still true that for every case of an engineering marvel, there are a good number created by non-engineers.  Tesla, a wonderful engineer, highly creative;  Wilbur and Orville Wright, non-engineers;  Brunel, builder of the Great Eastern, amongst other marvels, engineer;  Thomas Edison, non-engineer.  The list goes on.

My point is this:  If something works, but is easily explainable, everyone is happy.  If something works, however, but cannot be explained, then confusion, even suspicion, reigns.  I put it to you that there are few technologies where the engineering approach and the subjective appreciation clash as much as in audio technology;  there remain many things in audio which are not explainable - or even correlateable - with the subjective observations.  An example might be two amps which share 1dB points at 10Hz and 40KHz, yet one sounds bright, the other dull.  Why is this?  Why do a few extra pF of lag compensation have such profound effect on the WHOLE range, not just the top end?  I won't even mention cables.....  These observations can be tricky to explain - and the temptation is to fully examine the FR across the whole range looking for peaks and troughs to do so.  But in all cases, we are forced to use single frequency tones to do this, while we listen to music, which is irreducibly complex - far to difficult to analyse.  This is, of course, the archilles heel of specifications in audio.  We listen to music, yet we test with tones.

In my case, I make the observations, try to understand the phenomenon - often without much success despite wide reading and experimentation -  and then I try to exploit these observations in a commercial circuit.  The important word is commercial;  I don't have time to dwell too long on why, I just work at utilising and working within the observations as best I can.

Snake oil?  Smoke and haze?  Sorcery?  Difficult to say, though intent has something to do with it, I guess.  If you are trying to make as much money as possible, then possibly, but if you are quietly hammering away for the love of it, the very real challenge, and a quiet living, then maybe it's not the same.

Finally, I feel very little obligation to explain anything in technical detail.  Why?  Well, I find the language difficult, obstruse, and obfuscating, the math tricky and time consuming, and I note that lots of people out there spend a good deal of their waking time trying to pick faults, often in a very personal way, in some awfully complex arguments.  Just read the Bob Cordell thread on negative feedback at diyaudio.com for a good example.  Besides, why would I reveal all my 'secrets' in an area of technology very poorly served by the patent system?

One final point:  If I made a lot of money from electronics I'd have a good suite of test equipment, but all I have is a siggen, Tek 466 storage CRO, numerous DMMs, and a couple of irons.    I know you'd like to know why my PS works;  I too would like to know why FF error correction works so well in an Orion power supply, but I can't quite figure it out.  But I do know how to make a better power supply using the principles, and that's all I'm doing.  If you can suggest why it works, let's talk it over, but keep it simple, EVEN though music is so complicated!!

BTW, Aurelius, a good friend and very clever guy, is an EE, and he knows the technology backwards, and he doesn't know why any more than I do!!  One final point;  you feel it is not enough that it works, you want the reasons;  I'm there too, you know, but I find that explaining it makes very little difference to my customers.  They want the sound, and be damned why!!

Thanks for listening,

Cheers,

Hugh 

[bhobba]

I'm an applied mathematician myself so I also like to know why things work ... but sometimes IMO, you have to "take a punt" and buy something you can't understand.  Then when you're reaping the benefit of having taken this jump into the unknown, you can try to figure out the "whys" at your leisure. 

Hi Andy

I am with you.  As an applied mathematician myself I don't quite understand why amps sound different except I know that they do (my suspicion is it is something to do with the feedback).  People whose credibility, and knowledge of hard engineering, to me is beyond question (such as Hugh and Van Alstine) are able to pick it blind.  Although I still believe your biggest bang for the buck comes from upgrading speakers rather than amps.  But still if one has the speaker one likes what else is there to do?

Thanks
Bill

[Davey]

Hugh,

Your points are understood by most me thinks.  It's true that non-engineers have designed some terrific things in world history.  However, so have engineers.  This is an old cliche' but I think it works.  "I'd rather drive across the bridge designed by an engineer than the one designed by a creatively-inclined architect."

Audio seems one of those industries where methodical, engineering types are almost looked down upon for their efforts, and seat-of-the-pants (not saying that you are SOTP) "creative" folks are elevated to a status they don't deserve.  I don't think that's right. 

This Orion ASP power supply seems like a good case in point.  You've designed a unit using some proprietary feed-forward technology and have published no specifications or objective test data, but rather describe it totally in subjective terms and subjective results.  You admit you "can't quite figure out why it works, it just does."    However, if someone questions the design you reply with "rude" comments.  I'm sure you can understand why something like this might rub people the wrong way.  I understand you don't care if it does or not, but the fact remains it does.

It seems obvious from your PM that you have no interest in producing multiple copies (or even licensing the technology) of this unit for Orion owners.  That's cool, but the technically inclined among us are still interested in the design both objectively and subjectively.  I guess just for informational purposes.  At this point in time we're left with what looks like a bait-and-switch tactic.  We're still interested in it, but considering you can't supply the unit I'm not sure where that leaves us.  Probably right where you wanted us to be, eh? 

Cheers,

Davey.

[AKSA]

Hi David (I'm assuming this is your name, you won't respond to my questions),

Great to see you here - in good form, too.

BTW, I have a degree in English (does that make me an Englisheer?), and must say, you do write very well.....  I'd be happy to read it anywhere, even driving over a bridge!!  (I'd say Joe Strauss's masterpiece in SF would be a good start, nice and lyrical, too!)

Audio seems one of those industries where methodical, engineering types are almost looked down upon for their efforts, and seat-of-the-pants (not saying that you are SOTP) "creative" folks are elevated to a status they don't deserve.  I don't think that's right.

I was not aware both camps were being so treated;  this is unfortunate indeed.  There really should be more justice in these matters.  My golly, these creative folk have really got beyond themselves, haven't they?   

As a rule I only respond with 'rude' comments when people are rude to me.  It really is that simple.  I imagine you are the same, no?

Furthermore, I have no obligation, and specifically do not wish, to discuss circuit details in public with anyone, though when asked by customers I'm always happy to explain privately.  Why would I?  Can you think of a good reason?  I've even gone to the trouble of fully encapsulating the circuit!!  Has this never happened before in electronics?

Actually, David, I really do need to make more money, so spread the word!  I need to buy more test instruments....   

Cheers,

Hugh

[Davey]

Hugh,

Thanks anyway.  This unit can't be worth the abuse.

Or maybe it is....but somebody else will have to find out with their money. 

Cheers,

It's "Dave" by the way.  Nobody calls me "David" except my mother.

Davey.

[DSK]

In most things in life I thoroughly research all available options before selecting the one that best fits my needs. This frustrates some people as it means the decision takes longer to be made and the apparent lack of action sometimes makes me appear to be doing nothing. However, it certainly minimises mistakes and wasted money. But nobody has the time or desire to build expertise in everything. I have virtually no audio circuitry design knowledge and no measurement equipment (excluding room acoustics) other than my ears, yet I enjoy beautiful audio reproduction at the flick of a few switches and the turn of a couple of dials. If my creed was such that I would only purchase audio equipment comprising circuitry that I completely understood and approved of, I wouldn't even have a crystal radio set! I am one of those subjectivists ... if it works the best (ie. sounds the best to me) then it is also the one that measures the best against my requirements (my ears/brain). I couldn't care less how it measures against other people's ears, let alone some piece of circuitry. If the audio component was designed with the assistance of these things then well and good, but my decision to buy will be based purely on my own ears and resultant satisfaction (ignoring cost for the purposes of the current exercise). If the design was the result of educated guesses, hunches and the willingness to simply try things not previously tried, that is fine by me. In most fields this would be applauded as innovation.

I completely understand and admire those who need to understand the workings down to the last resistor as a mental challenge. However, those with this capability (and less capable mimics) are also able to copy the design and build their own without credit or payment to the original designer. If Hugh Dean did not rely on AKSA to feed his family, I'm sure he would relish the opportunity to throw open the design on the technical forums and fervishly participate in the ensuing discussions. I'm sure some very clever engineers could even figure out exactly why the design works and perhaps refine it even further. It is a pity that patent applications (and enforcement) are not a quick and inexpensive process. The curiosity of so many engineers could then be satisfied. Meanwhile, to criticise a designer for "innovation" or "secrecy" is inappropriate.

BTW, I don't think the "bridge" is a valid analogy. Most people cannot tell the structural integrity of a bridge by looking at it. But any audio fanatic can tell whether a component suits their taste by listening to it.

[andyr]

In most things in life I thoroughly research all available options before selecting the one that best fits my needs. This frustrates some people as it means the decision takes longer to be made and the apparent lack of action sometimes makes me appear to be doing nothing. However, it certainly minimises mistakes and wasted money. But nobody has the time or desire to build expertise in everything. I have virtually no audio circuitry design knowledge and no measurement equipment (excluding room acoustics) other than my ears, yet I enjoy beautiful audio reproduction at the flick of a few switches and the turn of a couple of dials. If my creed was such that I would only purchase audio equipment comprising circuitry that I completely understood and approved of, I wouldn't even have a crystal radio set! I am one of those subjectivists ... if it works the best (ie. sounds the best to me) then it is also the one that measures the best against my requirements (my ears/brain). I couldn't care less how it measures against other people's ears, let alone some piece of circuitry. If the audio component was designed with the assistance of these things then well and good, but my decision to buy will be based purely on my own ears and resultant satisfaction (ignoring cost for the purposes of the current exercise). If the design was the result of educated guesses, hunches and the willingness to simply try things not previously tried, that is fine by me. In most fields this would be applauded as innovation.

I completely understand and admire those who need to understand the workings down to the last resistor as a mental challenge. However, those with this capability (and less capable mimics) are also able to copy the design and build their own without credit or payment to the original designer. If Hugh Dean did not rely on AKSA to feed his family, I'm sure he would relish the opportunity to throw open the design on the technical forums and fervishly participate in the ensuing discussions. I'm sure some very clever engineers could even figure out exactly why the design works and perhaps refine it even further. It is a pity that patent applications (and enforcement) are not a quick and inexpensive process. The curiosity of so many engineers could then be satisfied. Meanwhile, to criticise a designer for "innovation" or "secrecy" is inappropriate.

BTW, I don't think the "bridge" is a valid analogy. Most people cannot tell the structural integrity of a bridge by looking at it. But any audio fanatic can tell whether a component suits their taste by listening to it.

Well said, Darren,

Absolutely Hugh should not publish his IP as any competent Orion builder would then be able to build it themselves, without paying him a sous for his efforts!   

However, IMO it's a shame that because of this headbutting we've had, the vast majority of Orion User Group members will now be denied the chance to have a better speaker (I say the vast majority since I assume the two current owners of the Orion PS - who are very happy with it - also participate in the Forum?).  Davey made a generous offer which would've assisted his fellow Forum participants but now, ...only those two Orion owners who happened to be AKSA owners - and therefore trust Hugh - will be in the fortunate position of having the best Orions on the planet.   

BTW, I'm glad you said "In most things in life I thoroughly research all available options before selecting the one that best fits my needs".  If you'd have said "In all things ..." I'd have had to query this, as I'm sure you didn't select your wifey in such a cold, calculating manner!!        I selected mine because I loved the way her tits jiggled under her silk dress the first time I met her - and luckily for me, there was sufficient reciprocal attraction that we came together ... for 28 years now!   

Regards,

Andy

[DSK]

...I selected mine because I loved the way her tits jiggled under her silk dress the first time I met her - and luckily for me, there was sufficient reciprocal attraction...

....you mean .... she loved the way YOUR tits jiggled under your silk dress too 

[LM]

DSK,

Not owning Orion’s and not being in the market for said power supply, I have only been an observer to this thread but well said.

I for one am amazed by the extensive polarised argument on so many forums (not just AC) between the ‘if you can’t measure it you can’t hear it’ Vs the ‘I heard it but can’t explain it’ schools.  Cables, CD players and Amps feature mostly but now obviously power supplies as well.  Life is too short to go round and round in circles in pointless and unresolvable argument when the simplest way is to have an open mind and simply listen.  Measurements are a great start point but in the end I listened to the LifeForce, I loved the sound and I ordered the product.  QED.  If the expectations had not been realised, I wouldn’t be here now.

[AKSA]

Folks,

Sadly Davey has now dropped his request for the PS;  a great pity, but he suggested that Dan Kolton was interested, and I will make a similar offer to Dan as I did to Dave, and this way the revelation open to Phil and Mark, both Orion owners, will be shared with at least one more.

I have to say that nothing frustrates me more than the exclusivity of fraternities.  I carry baggage in this area, and have to date always lived my life on the outer, never a member of anything, subscribing to Groucho's comment, 'I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member'.  When an Engineer condemns my work, or even shows scepticism (which is quite reasonable) based on my amateur status, I become a different person.  We are all people, and I am well educated, and I can't see why anyone can't learn informally to any depth if he wishes under his own guidance.  I have a few pet notions about how the audio debate has been hijacked by objectivity and specification and yet delivered ice-pick-in-ear presentations relentlessly for decades now (thanks Paul, great metaphor!!).  The stand and deliver arguments are tiresome, particularly in a world with sparse and costly protection for good ideas, and I feel no obligation to contribute to technical arguments amongst the mathematically gifted on internet forums.

I regret the way it turned out, as I was growing to like Davey, I thought his willingness to take on the PS impressive in light of our exchange.  At 55 I've finally learned to curb my verbal excesses, but it could be I have something more to learn with my forum exchanges.....

In any event, game over, we all learn something.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Davey]

Fellas,

I totally understand the "if it feels good (or sounds good) do it" approach.  Subjective enjoyment must ultimately trump all other aspects in the audio system.  And, I understand that there are satisfied customers with Hugh's approach.

My misunderstanding was I thought this PS was going to be available to a large (or fairly large) number of users for Orion systems or possibly other systems.  As Andy says it appears that only a very limited number of folks will have the opportunity to use or even evaluate the PS.  My mistake.

Heck, I don't even mind getting beat up on by a home crowd.    I won't bug you guys anymore.  Sorry for the distraction.

Okay, the bridge was a poor analogy.  Spur of the moment. 

Later,

Davey.

[andyr]

....you mean .... she loved the way YOUR tits jiggled under your silk dress too 

Haha ... smartarse!      

After I wrote the post, I thought you might pick me up on that!   

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

My misunderstanding was I thought this PS was going to be available to a large (or fairly large) number of users for Orion systems or possibly other systems.  As Andy says it appears that only a very limited number of folks will have the opportunity to use or even evaluate the PS.  My mistake.

Davey.

Davey,

Sorry but I have to point out that you are twisting my words.

Yes, I said it would seem only a very limited number of Orion owners will gain the benefit from Hugh's ASP PS.  This "limited no. of Orion users" would appear to be those who are Orion owners and also users of Hugh's amps ... currently 2, I believe.

Most if not all current AKSA owners had to make a leap of faith when they bought an AKSA amp ... very few - if any - of them would say they regretted making this leap of faith.  So they have been rewarded.   

If all Orion owners are the kind of people who must hear something before they buy it, then it would appear they are unlikely to get the benefit of Hugh's PS (BTW, I find it hard to believe this would be so ... not every Orion owner could've made the trip out to SL's place, to listen to his demo system?  ) ... unless someone within the OUG will do the necessary to make one available to the community for audition.  You offered and have now withdrawn your offer ... so maybe someone else will come forward.

IMO this can only be win-win ... the Orion community gets to improve their sound and Hugh gets to sell more stuff!   

I myself was interested in becoming an Orion user (amandarae will vouch for my long term interest) but when mac (as moderator) banned me from the OUG because I had the temerity to argue with him, I changed my focus to the Naos.  Not that I'm in a position to do anything until I'm able to offload my Maggies for a goodly sum! )

And why am I so positive that Hugh's PS will improve the sound of the Orions? ... two reasons:
a) marcus here in Oz has tried one out and says it does - and having met the guy and listened to his Orions, I consider him someone whose ears I can trust, and
b) I heard the improvement which a prototype of this PS made to my phono stage and my active XOs, compared to conventional LM-regulator PSes.

Finally, Hugh's PS is not ASP-specific ... it can be used for any "source device" (ie. something that pulls a couple of hundred milliamps, max).  So it wasn't built just for Orions ... it's just that, as you say, here's a ready market of folk who would benefit from having it.

Given that you're not prepared to go to the effort of orgainsing an audition, I suggest you owe it to your fellow "Orionies" to get someone else to do this? 

Regards,

Andy

[ctviggen]

Are these actually available for purchase?  The link on the webpage says they're coming.

[Davey]

Andy,

Because I decided not to follow through with the demo funding I should now advocate another of my fellow Orion owners to take up the cause?  No, I don't think so.   I already went farther than I needed to in this effort.  It's obvious from my PM's with Hugh that he doesn't think the majority of Orion owners represent a valid customer base and he's much more interested in supplying a Squeezebox PS.  His decision.  I can live with that.

I'm not sure how I twisted your words.  You said that only a "few people will have the best Orion's on the planet."  I agreed..("very limited number of folks")...  You confirmed.  "2."
I also mentioned that the supply may have other uses besides Orion ASP's.  Did you read that part?

Leaps of faith are customer decisions based on available information at the time.  Most Orion owners are probably NOT people "who must hear something before they buy it."  They made a leap of faith based on the fact that Siegfried is an acknowledged speaker design expert with a long history and in reading his website they probably found themselves in agreement with his design philosophy.

I'm not sure what the reasoning was for your banning from the OUG.  I admit to not following (closely) that aspect of the forum.  I know mac will not put up with any BS from members.  Peter was banned also, but made a case and has now been re-instated.

Cheers,

Davey.

[AKSA]

HI CTV,

Thanks for the post!  Indeed, they are now available, and prompted by yesterday's dialogue I worked last night to install the modules and fuse clips on three Orion PSs.  The remainder of the parts will follow this weekend.  Then I can get two existing orders out the door, and if Dan Kolton is interested, one for him as well!

Dave,

You mentioned that I don't consider the Orion users a valid market.  That's not quite right.  Let me explain my precise position, lest I be maligned on the OUG for dissing what I truly regard as an outstanding product!!

1.  Orion users are highly competent technically, and thus less inclined to take my subjective claims seriously.  After all, the improvements can't be measured - at least to my knowledge - and I make no attempt to measure them to 'prove' my point.
2.  The circuitry is novel, and I have encapsulated it.  There are four modules on the pcb, and each takes about an hour to fully make up, that's quite a bit of labor!  The SB supply is quicker to fabricate.
3.  SL and I work to very different agendas.  I do not wish to 'interfere' with his product, which he would consider more than adequate as it stands.   Above all, I respect his position and ability and will not put myself further in a compromising position.
4.  The numbers of Orion users is large, but the numbers of Squeezebox users is far larger and growing rapidly.  The latter is the bigger market.

I hope this makes it very clear.  I will say it again;  I do not want needless antagonism between Aspen users and Orion users.  The best way to achieve this is to keep away from this market.

That said, if asked, yes, I will certainly sell my power supply for use with the Orion ASP.  The cost is $USD300.

Thank you for your post,

Cheers,

Hugh