I hate when I'm wrong! CES 2006/THE Show thoughts on CDWG

John Casler · « **on:** 10 Jan 2006, 03:23 am »

I hate when I'm wrong! CES 2006/THE Show thoughts on CDWG

For years, I have had the opinion that it is simply impossible to have a Soundstage with 3-D depth and palpable images and imaging from a two speaker system, unless you are "equal distance" between the speakers.

I mean it only makes sense that the image will "collapse", due to the fact that the ear/brain will follow the louder speaker and "that" will then become the basis for where the sound comes from and determine the soundstage.

In short, I always said the image will collapse to the louder speaker.

I have heard it a "million times" and never heard "any" high quality, resolving system have a sweet spot wider than ONE person.

Sure there are "soft" imagine and fuzzy sweet spots 2-3 people wide with monopoles and maybe even 4 seats wide with dipoles in a large room, but with 3-D depth and "REAL" imaging???? I said it just doesn't happen.

Oh yeah I heard all the time that "MY" system will do it from various people, but when I sat down and put the system to the test, it just never happened.

Until now!

Early on, Brian gave me a pair of "prototype" CDWGs and I found a very "undescribable" (or is that "indescribable") quality to the imaging depth, that I felt was really the key quality to the use of the device.

My system is set up so that you will generally be in the sweet seat and you can't really do multiple seats across listening, because it is a single chair.

Well CES 2006 has put egg on my face

(as well as a smile

) because NOW I understand what Constant Directivity really does.

How many of you have been to Disneyland and been in the Haunted House where you have paintings on the wall, that no matter where you walk in the room, the eyes follow you, and the image of the face and head stay perfectly formed?

The CDWG is the Sonic version of that.

At CES we were swamped from the time I got there on Thursday, till Sunday afternoon.

There was very little time from opening to closing each day where we didn't have 3-8 people crammed into that little room (14' x 15")

Much of the time I was "Remote Control Guy" meaning I stood off to the side, a couple feet from the left speaker and hit the remote to change track on CD's for people auditioning.

As I did so, I had this idea that all I would hear is the left speaker.

WRONG....

Standing only 2-3 feet in front of and to the left of the left speaker, I could close my eyes and have a perfectly formed image of a performer "between" the speakers, with iamging and all the fixings.

Now while the refelction in the room didn't allow perfection, I would move around to most any spot in the room and close my eyes to let the image set up, and Holy Mackeral it was there.

I have never heard anything like this from a monopole speaker before.

How does it do this?

I'll explain after I workout (Its 7:30 here, and I need to make up for the 4-5 workouts I missed while in Las Vegas)

John Casler · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 03:52 am »

lkosova · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 04:52 am »

HI John,

I can attest to what John is saying. I went there on the 3 and 4th day of the show(in past years this is when the speakers sounded their best).

The VMPS room was really the only room that was constantly busy. I went to both Alexis park and the St. Tropez shows.

I sat down to listen to Dina Krall and BAM!!! The sound is very 3-D. I looked behind me to see what was going on and it had nothing to do with the door being slightly opened. It just hits you in a different way. On "THE Girl in the room" the cymbal shimmer is just unreal. If you close your eyes you can locate the exact point on the cymbal the drummer is hitting it....very freaky!! It seemed like the instruments were "floating" in the air but in all the correct places. Imaging and soundstage are so much better then the RM-30's I have had for the last few years. Diana could of been sitting in my lap but that would make Elvis mad.....I was extremely skeptical also and as we both admitted to this but hearing is really an eye opener.

You can stand and move toward the speaker and not lose much. I was also standing on the extreme side of the front left speaker since I was nudged out by customers(customers always come first) and it was quite unreal how I could hear things like I was in a better acoustical spot...

The sweet spot is still the best but the seats off axis sound like my setup does now. I get holographic acoustics on my setup but this just takes it to a new level.

I personally did not hear drop off of the highs but this room was a hard room to treat and John and Brian did a very good job with a very poor room. (John will describe later I am sure.)

I enjoyed watching John do his thing. If I am going to learn, learn from the best!!

Larry
www.automatedhomeandbusiness.com

nathanm · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 05:20 am »

warnerwh · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 05:24 am »

John: It appears you had a LEDE setup in the room. Is this correct? Reason I ask as I've been curious how the CDWG's will work in my room.

Mathew_M · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 05:42 am »

Thanks Nathan. I hate seeing bad photos of expensive gear

Tubes do make a big difference with the ribbons. I would attribute a lot of the 3-D sound to the amp. With that said I'm currently getting excellent sound out of my Squeezebox running straight into my Panny XR-25. A very layered, smooth sound that isn't quite 3-D but getting there.

John Casler · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 06:32 am »

Quote from: warnerwh

John: It appears you had a LEDE setup in the room. Is this correct? Reason I ask as I've been curious how the CDWG's will work in my room.

Yes, Warner it was LEDE, and the sound was pretty spectacular.

I visited at least 8-9 of the BIG NAME rooms and (Of course I'm biased) nothing came close to the overall sound in the center of the room.

I say the center because even with the subs "OFF" the bass around the perimeter and in the corners was quite LARGE.

I couldn't beleive the RM30"C" which is about 42Hz (-3db) was playing the low "freaks" (frequencies) of Flight of the Cosmic Hippo and the cuts from American Beauty Original Score. It must have been an "Aural Illusion". No doubt helped by the SR-71 package. And all this bass "with" TUBES no Less!!

John Casler · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 06:37 am »

Quote from: Mathew_M

Thanks Nathan. I hate seeing bad photos of expensive gear

Tubes do make a big difference with the ribbons. I would attribute a lot of the 3-D sound to the amp. With that said I'm currently getting excellent sound out of my Squeezebox running straight into my Panny XR-25. A very layered, smooth sound that isn't quite 3-D but getting there.

Yes Nathamn, THANK YOU

And the Tube amps were Bruce Moore mono blocs and line stage, which were stellar. They had it all, Highs, Mids, "AND" Bass. So much so that I have signed on a Dealer.

The amps pictured are $15k and 225wpc and can play down to 2 ohms (has 2 ohm tap) I'd load up the room with people and turn off all the lights and let the soft tube orange tube glow set the soundstage.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 06:49 am »

Brian fixed the assumed 6 dB 10k Hz low-pass tweeter rolloff: With the tweeter horn removed, its output is virtually the exact inverse of the above rolloff. I heard no problem with the highs.

VAC & Von Shweikert had a killer setup down the hall, maybe $100k total, speakers $36k. BC's sounded better to me, no doubt. The grand piano on the same CD definitely sounded far better. I was overwhelmed with emotion in Brian's room on that one cut, no where near the same reaction on the VS's.

John Casler · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 06:56 am »

I should also mention the basic system:

TRL (Tube Research Labs) modified Sony DVP-NS900V SACD/DVD Player
Bruce Moore Line Stage
Bruce Moore MonoBlocs (225w)
RM30C speakers with, Auricaps, and CDWG
Pair VMPS Original Subs

All wired up with Brian Kyle's Xtreme Cables (who is now also a VMPS dealer) with a proprietary blend of copper and silver and with cotton dielectrics and no plastic.

Even the line stage, the speakers, and all the power cords were wired with X-treme Cable.

Thursday is sound great.
Friday it sounded better
Sat it had bloomed even more
Sun Morning I tweaked the room, and seating positions a bit more and had about 90 minutes of "uno on uno" listening in the sweet seat and put the pedal to the metal.

Bach - Little Fugue in G minor!
Pictures at an Exhibition - Great Gate of Kiev
Hugh Masekela - Stimela
American Beauty Original Score
Heart - Crazy on You
BlackLight Syndrome/Bad Plus
Led Zepplin - Stairway to Heaven
Stevie Ray Vaughn - Tin Pan Alley
Ricky Lee Jones - Dat Dere
Theme from the Red Violin (Soundtrack)
Kraftwerk - Music Don't Stop (Techno-Pop)
Bruce Hornsby - That's Just the Way It Is
Various Cuts off Jook Joint by Quincy Jones
Some Where Over the Rainbow - The Huge Samoan Singer who is no longer with us (sorry I don't know his name

)
Several Jack Johnson cuts,
and as you can see a wide variety of music and just everything that was recorded well, sounded dynomite!

As various vendors started to trapes in, they all slipped in stood behind me and left shaking their heads. One well known tube equipment room came back three times and finally ask if we might have another pair of RM30s that they could put in their room, since the sound they were getting was only about 80% of what we had.

Sad to say we only had a single "back up" speaker.

No, I won't mention names, but it was a very nice compliment, and the speakers they were using were "highly regarded" (as well as a bit more expensive) and one of my most favorite "non" VMPS speakers.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 07:09 am »

John...Israel Kamakawiwoole is the singer on Somewhere Over The Rainbow. Nice tune selections....

John Casler · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Jan 2006, 07:17 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42

John...Israel Kamakawiwoole is the singer on Somewhere Over The Rainbow. Nice tune selections....

Thanks LW42,

Sorry I didn't know the name, but Clement Perry (Stereo Times) brought by his Demo/Reference Disc and ask B to run it on the Reality Check CD burner so he could see if there was a difference (there was) and I was using it, which has this cut.

lkosova · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 02:45 am »

Jim,

I agree no high rolloff at all in my limited time hearing the speakers. It is really an accomplishment of what Brian was able to achieve with this speaker....this is an exciting time to move forward with speaker design.

One thing....the cabinet finish and style of the CDWG was really attractive and made the speaker look more like a work of art then without the waveguide....it is actually very cool looking and will get a big
WAF thumbs up.

We get speakers with the grilles sorta off and the wife gets a really nice style. This finish looked to me like one of Mark's best.....

Funny little story.....as I was leaving for good and said my good byes there was a guy that sorta just got to the "The show" very late...he asked me where the numbers on the building were to know whom to go to , to listen to speakers. I told him the only speaker you need to listen to was VMPS and he say's....."that's the ones I really want to listen to"!!!!!!!!

So I escorted him directly to the room and introduced him to Brian....he had a big smile on his face when he sat down to listen also...

Larry

woodsyi · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 05:52 am »

John,

I am glad you and Brian finally saw the light to feed the ribbons some serious tube power!

When I heard your 30s at your place last summer, I made a mental note that I like the way my tubes did the human voice better than what your SOA amp did. But now, I bet those big tubes really made the 30s sing at the show....

As I type this I am playing with a Behringer DEQ2496 between my transport and DAC per Warner's recommendation. I think this neat gear will care of any dips and roll offs from CDWG on music from digital sources. I still won't do AD/DA on my analog ends but somhow my TTs don't have much issues with the CDWG 40's.

warnerwh · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 06:08 am »

woodsyi: Very glad you got this piece. It's a bargain considering what we have into our systems. Be sure that if you use the autoeq function that you set a curve as you don't want a flat response in your room let it sound thin in the bass and bright in the treble. Maybe Eric or George will chime in regarding room curves. Also be sure to not try to do more than several db of correction. Then tweak with the parametric eq. Take your time above all. Good Luck.

John Casler · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 07:36 am »

Quote from: woodsyi

John,

I am glad you and Brian finally saw the light to feed the ribbons some serious tube power! When I heard your 30s at your place last summer, I made a mental note that I like the way my tubes did the human voice better than what your SOA amp did. But now, I bet those big tubes really made the 30s sing at the show....
...

Hi Woodsyi,

Actually Brian (and I) are quite fond of tubes at various places with VMPS. I have heard them with Herrons, DeHavillands, Jolidas, Eastern Electric, and Bruce Moore.

I think the reason less people use tubes is that they need the larger wattage tube amps ($$) to sound their best or they can be used on the mid-panels and tweeter, but this requires very good integration. (and more dough$$)

As far as the SoA, I think the "edge" you might have heard was caused by a failing CD player (which I had to replace not long after you were here) which was causing some distortion, which I first noticed in Upper Bass and Female Voice. That got progressively worse. The SoA is probably one of the most "tubelike" SS amps around.

But back to tubes....The Bruce Moore Monblocs "WERE" heavenly in most every area including bass (@225wpc) In fact, most were quite amazed that we were playing the VERY DEEP BASS notes on cuts like "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" and "American Beauty" Original score.

The amazing thing was that we were using RM30 "C's" which are generally only good down to 42hz (-3db)!!!! Something was giving us Bass FR at a much lower range.

Those Bruce Moores, while not cheap, ($15K retail) had BIG brass cajones

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 07:43 am »

I'd think the Butlers would be popular with VMPS. I haven't heard them, but reportedly they have good slam, lots of power and don't cost a lot compared to other tube amps with decent power.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 07:54 am »

I got the speakers tuned in with my new CDWG's tonight.

I played one of my favorite CD's, Blue Note 590264, Dianne Reeves, "Remember". The zylophone on one cut sounded like it was literally about 10' behind & way left of the left speaker. I never experienced imaging like this before. I am still adjusting to the performance improvement. It's fantastic. I turned up the treble, & may still need to notch it back a bit.

I'm very much looking forward to getting a room analysis in the near future, possibly change the walls a bit, setup LEDE damping, change the seating, hard reflective floor on the listening end 2/3rds, & get a better DAC.

Mine are production CDWG's made by MLS. They are impeccable, the ones in John's picture. They are piano black to match my speakers. They provide a dramatic cosmetic improvement. They are perfectly finished, IMO up to the standards of Wilson Audio or any other premium top flight brand. Not a blemish anywhere.

BrunoB · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 08:39 am »

Quote from: RibbonSpeakers.net

Brian fixed the assumed 6 dB 10k Hz low-pass tweeter rolloff: With the tweeter horn removed, its output is virtually the exact inverse of the above rolloff. I heard no problem with the highs.
...

Do I deserve some credits here?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24221.msg215531#215531&highlight=horn+10khz+tweeter#215531

Bruno

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Jan 2006, 09:34 am »

I've never been into that particular fetish (imaging) but I'd still love to hear something like that. Up til now I suppose the Onix Ref 1's are probably the best I've heard in that regard.

I'm curious as hell how 5 x 626r's w/CDWG would work for MC music.