Math Problem - Apple Lossless File Sizes

Horizons · « **on:** 2 Jan 2006, 06:57 am »

I started ripping a few CDs with iTunes to Apple lossless. Sounds great but the average CD is ripping to around 250-300 MB (roughly half of the total wave file size). I originally thought that I could rip 1000 CDs in this format and that it would fit on a 250 GB drive. I see that I can only fit about 100 CDs in Apple lossless on 250 Gigs.

Is my math right? If so, I either need a much bigger drive(s) or a switch to FLAC to get more compression. I guess adding multiple drives is another option.

Watson · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 11:29 am »

Your expectations may have been off a bit. FLAC and Apple Lossless both have nearly identical compression ratios (about a 40% savings in space). See here for results of testing all the available lossless codecs:
http://members.home.nl/w.speek/comparison.htm

The difference between ALAC/FLAC and the very best lossless codec is only about 5%. There is a real limit to how good lossless compression can be, even given unlimited time for encoding. Mathematicians call this the information-theoretic lower bound.

ctviggen · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 02:06 pm »

I'm getting about 328 MB per CD for FLAC. Yikes! That means I'm going to have to buy a massive hard drive in order for my squeeze box to see all of my songs.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 02:09 pm »

Quote from: Horizons

I started ripping a few CDs with iTunes to Apple lossless. Sounds great but the average CD is ripping to around 250-300 MB (roughly half of the total wave file size). I originally thought that I could rip 1000 CDs in this format and that it would fit on a 250 GB drive. I see that I can only fit about 100 CDs in Apple lossless on 250 Gigs.

Is my math right? If so, I either need a much bigger drive(s) or a switch to FLAC to get more compression. I guess adding multiple drives is another option.

Your math isn't quite right. If you're getting 300MB per CD, that'll let you rip about 3 CDs per 1GB. So on a 250GB drive, you should be able to get about 750 CDs (a lot more than 100 CDs)...

Horizons · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 03:05 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

Your math isn't quite right. If you're getting 300MB per CD, that'll let you rip about 3 CDs per 1GB. So on a 250GB drive, you should be able to get about 750 CDs (a lot more than 100 CDs)...

Thanks for the clarification.

I plan on using both EAC/FLAC and iTunes/Apple Lossless and do some sonic comparisons.

Folsom · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 09:16 pm »

Quote from: Horizons

Quote from: PhilNYC
Your math isn't quite right. If you're getting 300MB per CD, that'll let you rip about 3 CDs per 1GB. So on a 250GB drive, you should be able to get about 750 CDs (a lot more than 100 CDs)...

Thanks for the clarification.

I plan on using both EAC/FLAC and iTunes/Apple Lossless and do some sonic comparisons.

You will find FLAC better I am sure. I noticed a huge difference in transparency and dynamic range.

John Ashman · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 10:08 pm »

FLAC, by definition, can't be better than Apple Lossless. If you noticed a difference, I have some cryogenically frozen cables I'd like to sell you.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Jan 2006, 11:52 pm »

Quote from: Destroyer of Smiles.

You will find FLAC better I am sure. I noticed a huge difference in transparency and dynamic range.

Depends on what you're using for playback, no? If using a Squeezebox, Slimserver converts Apple Lossless to FLAC before sending it to the Squeezebox...

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 12:02 am »

I have a related question...I just got a 250gb external HDD. I was trying to use the backup software to back up the pictures as well as the Itunes folders which include everything I have in terms of Apple Lossless and MP3s. What I realized after spending a good 30 minutes to 1 hour letting the backup take place was that the backup was incomplete. I mean, the Iphoto files end up to about July 2004 and it stopped there. The same happened to Itunes files, it goes from whatever lose MP3 to a point and it does not want to copy Itunes music folders and its subfolders. I was able to drag and drop copy the missing files but the software tells me that "the name path is too long" whatever nonsense and I have to skip that file to continue the backup path. What is happening here.

BTW, I am operating OSX panther on my Mac mini.

Suggestions would most like to be welcome.

Paul K

Folsom · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 02:27 am »

Well I assume Apple Lossless with Itunes... I have no idea what else can play them. Foobar2000 will not play them even though it has support for them?

Watson · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 03:22 am »

Quote from: Bemopti123

I have a related question...I just got a 250gb external HDD. I was trying to use the backup software to back up the pictures as well as the Itunes folders which include everything I have in terms of Apple Lossless and MP3s. What I realized after spending a good 30 minutes to 1 hour letting the backup take place was that the backup was incomplete. I mean, the Iphoto files end up to about July 2004 and it stopped there. The same happened to Itunes files, it goes from whatever lose MP3 to a point and it does not want to copy Itunes music folders and its subfolders. I was able to drag and drop copy the missing files but the software tells me that "the name path is too long" whatever nonsense and I have to skip that file to continue the backup path. What is happening here.

What's likely happening is that the 250GB external drive came formatted in FAT32 format. OS X can read and write to FAT32, but there are some limitations. First, it's much slower than writing to a native HFS partition, partly because resource forks have to get stored as separate files. Second, the FAT32 format is old and has maximum path depth limitations (the error message you're getting), as well as a maximum file size limitation of 4GB, and a maximum number of files per directory. Getting proper backups of an HFS drive to a FAT32 drive can be hit and miss. Not all programs do it right and handle all the little peculiarities.

I'd recommend using the Disk Utility to format the drive to HFS+ (Mac OS X Extended Filesystem, Journaled). Apart from making backups easier and much faster, you'll also gain the reliability of a journaled file system, and you will also gain a sizable amount of disk space. FAT32 uses a very inefficient indexing scheme and with a realistic number of files you can expect to get 30% more space on the drive with HFS+. That might work out to 70GB or more extra for you.

bmed · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 03:51 am »

Bemopti123,

If you want a simple backup software program for your Mac, try SuperDuper!. It has a simple and easy to follow interface, it can also allow for scheduled backups of only newly added data to speed up the process. I have it scheduled to backup every few days. If you're using a Firewire drive, you can make a bootable copy of your OS in case of disaster (only firewire drives are bootable for Apple). No connection to SuperDuper!, just a happy customer.

Cheers,
Brad

Horizons · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 05:32 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

Quote from: Destroyer of Smiles.

You will find FLAC better I am sure. I noticed a huge difference in transparency and dynamic range.

Depends on what you're using for playback, no? If using a Squeezebox, Slimserver converts Apple Lossless to FLAC before sending it to the Squeezebox...

Now that is something interesting that I did not know. Is there a utility to convert Apple lossless to FLAC?

PhilNYC · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 05:42 pm »

Quote from: Horizons

Now that is something interesting that I did not know. Is there a utility to convert Apple lossless to FLAC?

I've never used it, but I have heard MacFLAC is pretty good:

http://www.download.com/3000-2182-10211614.html

Folsom · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 08:33 pm »

Quote from: Horizons

Quote from: PhilNYC
Quote from: Destroyer of Smiles.

You will find FLAC better I am sure. I noticed a huge difference in transparency and dynamic range.

Depends on what you're using for playback, no? If using a Squeezebox, Slimserver converts Apple Lossless to FLAC before sending it to the Squeezebox...

Now that is something interesting that I did not know. Is there a utility to convert Apple lossless to FLAC?

Yes.. dbpowerconverter will convert it. You have to download the extra codecs but that is easy!

konut · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jan 2006, 10:06 pm »

I have been researching this topic today and heres what I've found. http://flac.sourceforge.net/download.html Also Roxio Toast Titanium for Tiger will rip directly to FLAC. This is probably the route I will take. I'm not 100% sure but I think Apple Lossless Encoding will not do gapless playback, which is simply unacceptable, unless you save the whole disc as one file. Also with APE you lose the ability to use FF and FRW. This is a good reason, for me, to avoid APE altogether.

Folsom · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Jan 2006, 12:06 am »

I prefer EAC because it is so dang good. You can attach a FLAC converter to it.... I however prefer to rip with EAC and convert with dbpowerconvter. Foobar2000 makes the file naming all automatic and easy as well. I can explain how to do it if you like.