[Folsom]

Love.

I know not every one thinks it sounds better, but by all manners of listening I think it does. Well I think good pressing sound better.

Love? Love!

I believe Vinyl came from a time when the love of music meant appreciate for good instrument playing, and quality vocalists. I also think love the reason people got into the recording industry below the CEO's of the big corporations, during the time.

Now it seems to be more about money, fame, and who can top TRL. The stuff that come out now that is comparable to Vinyl in quality is underground. Hard to say but any thing with some actual work into it, some real old fashioned talent, is worked on and distributed by the smaller names in the business. That audiophile quality CD is at the bottom of the pile in every Best Buy. No one even cares about talent and quality but the few who are just unheard of, they are no where near mainstream.

I have confidence in CD's, even though I love Vinyl. Unfortunately the way the music world is today just plain SUCKS and completely determines me from almost all CD's.

I only hope the crazy of pure shit stops and some one actually starts to appreciate the beauty in music. That some one would be the world.

I have no doubt Ipods and downloading is doing every thing it can to hurt progress toward some quality music. Perhaps when computers can hold endless amounts of songs as FLAC/.WAV and can download the very exact FLAC/.WAV file from the internet in seconds, all Ipods can hold endless amounts of FLAC/.WAV, we will head in the right direction. The one thing I know is the technology is not far off, but every corporation in the world is going to bleed every product capable in-between then and now for as long as they can.

[Woodsea]

You have a point
Romance ie love can make a difference in how you listen and play.
Romanticism also is what our brain remembers.  We humans are programmed to forget the bad, otherwise our memories would be full and nearly impossible to categorize.  Hence we remember the good stuff.
Though, I like my music through tubes and ribbons, if not live.  I do have fond memories of my old phonograph.

[eric the red]

"I believe Vinyl came from a time when the love of music meant appreciate for good instrument playing, and quality vocalists."

Like all the Disco vinyl from the 70's and all that fabulous 80's music on vinyl.

Vinyl sounds better to our ears because of vinyl playback's slighty rolled-off pleasantly distorted sound.

[Folsom]

"I believe Vinyl came from a time when the love of music meant appreciate for good instrument playing, and quality vocalists."

Like all the Disco vinyl from the 70's and all that fabulous 80's music on vinyl.

Vinyl sounds better to our ears because of vinyl playback's slighty rolled-off pleasantly distorted sound.

Well the 80's are sketchy.... 80-85, but many pressing where poor from some places after even 81.

Granted disco is not that great, HOWEVER there where some higher quality disco songs then say Ashley Simpson. Pop back in the disco era still has some dignity in comparrison to today. Pop from the seventies.... Please you mean to tell me you hate the song "Hooked on a feeling?!". Still though, the main stream was not just disco, other genres with true talent still existed and made it high on the charts.

[eric the red]

Are you a big Blue Swede fan??

[Folsom]

Are you a big Blue Swede fan??

Well.... That is the only song I know haha.

[Bemopti123]

wrong thread reply, moved the answer to the appropriate one.

[nathanm]

I don't think the vinyl MEDIUM offers much in the way of fidelity.  It's certainly a step down from analog tape.  Vinyl only makes sense when the entire recording chain is analog.  That probably never happens nowadays.  The recording techniques and equipment from the olden days are what people are reacting positively to, not so much a needle scraping a piece of vinyl.  The rest of vinyl's appeal is purely aesthetic or nostalgic.

Another factor is that new technology allows more inexperienced people to gain access to making records which is good, but it also can lower the overall perception of quality.  When a bit of technology starts off only the most talented and technically adept people are able to use it.  Over time the technology improves and next thing you know Joe Schmoe from down the block has got a record and the market is saturated.  The speed and efficiency of internet music distribution affects this in the same manner.  It's so quick and easy you just don't appreciate it as much.

[TheChairGuy]

I don't think the vinyl MEDIUM offers much in the way of fidelity.  It's certainly a step down from analog tape.  Vinyl only makes sense when the entire recording chain is analog.  That probably never happens nowadays.  The recording techniques and equipment from the olden days are what people are reacting positively to, not so much a needle scraping a piece of vinyl.  The rest of vinyl's appeal is purely aesthetic or nostalgic.

Another factor is that new technology allows more inexperienced people to gain access to making records which is good, but it also can lower the overall perception of quality. When a bit of technology starts off only the most talented and technically adept people are able to use it. Over time the technology improves and next thing you know Joe Schmoe from down the block has got a record and the market is saturated. The speed and efficiency of internet music distribution affects this in the same manner. It's so quick and easy you just don't appreciate it as much.
 ...

Nathan,

I used to think so, too.....until I re-did my vinyl front end right smartly.  It takes a lot of twiddling to get right, but it beats CD playback by a highway mile, overall, in musical pleasure.

I didn't want my $600 analog investment to best my very carefully assembled (Empirical Audio modded Sony DVP-S7700, MSB Gold Link III DAC AND Power Supply, & Revelation Audio Lab cryo silver power cable and digi cable) $4500 digital one, I assure you  

I listen to CD for background music...I was never able to coax music from it.  As I learn and adopt better cleaning methods in my vinyl play (part of the twiddling, I'm afraid), the differences continue to grow between the two mediums.  

Kinda' sad about it as CD is so much easier...but the music is just so much more enjoyable on vinyl.

[nathanm]

So are you doing back-to-back comparisions of the vinyl vs. the CD release, though?  That's the torture test.  I'm definitely subjectively biased towards wanting vinyl to sound better, but on the few albums I own which I have both CD and vinyl copies the CD usually is a bit better.  (vinyl wins for cover art and lyric sheet legibility though! Even with a tweaked out setup, record cleaning and the like; the surface noise is contributing to the sound.  I also think the subsonic rumble from such noise, however low in volume, contributes positively to the sound.  Perhaps acoustic feedback as well.  Otherwise the vinyl I really enjoy listening to was recorded in the '70s where they were using all that fat 'ol analog gear that I described earlier.  I like records, but I still think the recording techniques used when vinyl was in its heyday are far more of a factor than the medium itself.  My Nakamichi cassette deck usually sounds superior to my vinyl, but unfortunately many of the tapes have been run through much crappier mechanisms over the years.

Vinyl is also cool because it's so tangible and out in the open.  You can actually sit and watch a turntable work like it's almost magic.  Not quite the same as a CD where it gets swallowed up by a mysterious black box.  Even the transports that are exposed don't allow you to see the laser.  Who's afraid of a little eye damage?

[Mathew_M]

I too love just watching a record spin on a turntable, holding the big cover in my hands.  I doubt bands like Iron Maiden would of developed the same cult following without vinyl cover art.  Vinyl has weight to it that makes it seem more valuable.  Digital music doesn't have a tangible aspect to it which I think is one of the reasons for low sales and high pirating.  On the other hand the iPod is popular even for those who don't own a lot of music because it adds a tangible 'fun' factor for listening to music like vinyl does.

[mmakshak]

I don't think the difference is that simple.  I've been thinking about this, because an amplifier designer(who could kick my rear-or at least could make me look bad, temporarily) used frequency response differences to explain the differences, and I disagreed with him.  Here is a possible technical response(somewhat).  Analog has the music change the recording mechanism.  Digital imposes its recording mechanism on what it views.  I'de be interested in if someone could decipher what I'm saying(Coors is great) and their ideas on what I've said.

[TheChairGuy]

Nathan,

I have done side by side of the few (3 that I know of) titles shared on both CD and vinyl...and the results have been conclusively tilted towards vinyl.  The difference in one, Roxy Music's 'Siren', was eye-opening to me.

You really nailed it about acoustical feedback...that's the key to twiddling it right.  I have my JVC direct drive on a marble slab, separated by squishy 'puds' (4 for $39.95 from LAT International) on top of an old, sand filled Target rack (which has another 4 puds between it and the slab).  The TT was filled with about 9 lbs of Plast-i-Clay, inside and out (it's no looker, my TT   ) and my tonearm is both damped with constrained layer damping AND a home brew silicone damping trough.  A serious wrap on it's side, at very high volumes, yeilds nothing entering into the music stream.  Seriously, nuthin'  

Also, a good shake while playing does not move the needle while playing...nor my 2 year old dancing around in my room to Sting or Mozart (no sense of rhythm, she ).  The Ortofon is not even a great tracking cartridge...just a nice sounding one a very fair cost ($200 paid new)

The neat Herbie's platter mat, record cleaner machine and Ortofon X5-MC hi-output moving coil were lesser, but important, upgardes than the isolation from feedback angle.

More on my travel back to vinyl (oftentimes, more of a soliliquoy) is chronicled here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22938

[Rob Babcock]

So have you finally ditched your JVC digiceiver, too?  I thought I'd heard you finally "moved on."

[TheChairGuy]

So have you finally ditched your JVC digiceiver, too?  I thought I'd heard you finally "moved on."

Rob: I still own it...and still think it's fantastic value for $200 (when preceeded by good AC conditioning).  If I was happy with CD, I might still be using it exclusively...but my little foray back into vinyl (which just started as a cheap way to still hear my 250 albums), turned out better than I ever thought it could be.

The vinyl medium, for 15% of the cost of my digital front end, is better.  As I learn better cleaning processes - the difference grows.  I now use Buggtussel (for bacteria and mold), Record Doctor in the Nitty Gritty and I now incorporated MicroCare's Premier for dissolving the mold-release compounds that muck up a record before  it's ever played.  Finally, each is treated to Last Record Preservative.  It's all done once only for many year, it's not as exhaustive as it sounds...in between each play it's just  simple brush off with a carbon fibre brush.

I have Sade on now, Stronger than Pride, and it's so much better than the CD version it ain't even close.  Better cymbol and hi hat sounds, warmer and tighter bass lines and clearer (yes, more resolution it seems - a weird conundrum for a 100 year old, 'obsolete' medium ) throughout and in between.  Beleive, I didn't want my CD playback to be inferior...it sure was nicer sitting for an hour and hitting repeat.  But, it doesn't make music and it's not the fault of the manufacturer (MSB, Sony and Revelation Audio Labs) or modder (Steve Nugent/Empirical Audio) that made and improved upon it.

Anyhow, the JVC doesn't have amp out jacks to use with a pre that has phono.  I was running my Dynaco pre into the DVD Multi jacks and it sounded okay...but there was too much noise generated by overlapping preamp sections, volume controls, etc in use.

If JVC ever make a 2 or 7 channel amp with the new Generation III Hybrid architecture and it's under $800-1000....I'll be among the first to buy one  

[Folsom]

The distortion that apparently is the feet of all things referred to Vinyl's reasoning, I have a question for.

That distortion you mention, what ever it is on paper, it makes my music sound like a real band performing.

Who is to say our perception of live music does not have that same (but not measurable) distortion that CD's take away through their manner of recording and mixing. Why would it be unreasonable to believe when a band plays together in the same room that distortion is created, yet not when all separate instruments are recorded separately and mixed together with vocals?

I love CD’s and all. The however do not touch me emotionally with the music the way Vinyl tends too….

Vinyl’s exploitation of the singer’s voice is one thing I love. Fuck the CD version of Neil Diamond any thing, along with the likes. If the lead singer is known for his voice I want it to be apparent. There are VERY few CD’s where I have ever experienced the singer’s voice being the most prevalent thing.

[nathanm]

That distortion you mention, what ever it is on paper, it makes my music sound like a real band performing.

Distortion has nothing to do with the illusion of realism.  The talent and technique of the recording engineer is what you are hearing.  If I were to assign a parameter to this it would be the ratio of direct to reflected sound on the recording which is largely responsible for the illusion of realism.  Time and phase based effects that generate the artificial soundstage.  Also if the recording was done live vs. multi-tracked in isolation makes a huge difference, as you said.  Certainly a bunch of sounds blended in the same airspace is going to be different than in isolation and combined electronically.  

The distortion or noise I spoke of from vinyl playback affects the tonality, not any time-based effects.  The rumble of a TT can add a thickness to the sound which may be pleasing to the ear, but I don't think it has anything to do with sounding like a real band or not.  But to be honest I don't think there's as much bass roar\thickness from the high end tables as there are on the cheaper ones.

Vinyl is cool and all, but I still think the most important factors of great sound are well outside the hands of the listener.

[ricmon]

The cymbols on the  Mahavishnu Orchestra  Visions of the Emerald Beyond sound so much bettrer on vinyl I don't even listen to the cd any more and me to statred listining to vinyl just to hear my old lps.  and yes now I listen to mostly vinyl.  I am waiting for a Casandra Wilson lp and look forward to the comparison of old vinyl versus new vinyl. By the way the Project X1 is possibly the best TT under $500.00 bucks

[TheChairGuy]

Nathan,

I used to tote out all those arguments in favor of CD, too.  But, listening brings forth a whole different reality.

With the exception of extension of the lowest bass notes (which my small 2 way speakers don't produce...I probably don't get much action much below 50Hz), vinyl beats CD in most areas.  What bass there is and tends to be more tuneful and pleasant than the same on CD.

It's no contest whatsoever on the high frequency / treble portion of the spectrum....the 44.1 sampling rate of CD is insufficient to accurately reproduce 5,000 - 20,000 cycles per second.  There is too many cycles for the poor CD interpolation mechanism to reproduce accurately......it's digital approximation is not the event or what the instrument sounds like.  Cymbols, as ricmon indicated, are vastly superior on good vinyl. On paper, SACD with 2.8 million samples per second should improve upon the high frequency performance, marginally it does indeed, but I still have not heard an SACD player yet that has really gotten the music right.

Maybe I will some day, but at what cost will this insane hobby take me?

You need not spend a lot to hear it either...as my pleasant experiment has shown.  I think for under $1000.00 ($1200 I guess with a quality cartridge), a fully tricked out Technics SL-1200 from KABUSA is the ticket to excellence.  Until you get into much pricier belt drive territory with more massive inert platters, exacting speed control and tighter bearing tolerances, it is difficult to match it's performance.  Rumble is - 80db and wow and flutter is next to nonexistent. Not much twiddling needed with that one and it'll last a lifetime.

I'm only referring to sound quality.....convenience, space utilization, ease of use, title availability, the wonders of the remote, etc. are an aside in the never ending debate between vinyl and CD.  

Musically speaking, and I feel almost sheep-ish using this word as I have heard it and snickered at others using it, it's a slam dunk in favor of the ole' Turntable...for  way less as it turned out in my case.  I find the greatest differences in classical.....in fact, I never really took to symphonic and classical until I dialed in my TT right.

[Carlman]

Interesting conversation on the vinly/digital comparo...
What has continued to put vinyl on a back burner for me is essentially the engineering of modern music.  I like a few pop artists like Modest Mouse, John Mayer, etc... Their records are just awful on vinyl.  It sounds like someone brought in a cd of the artist to a record-maker and said 'here ya' go'... and they make more money on weirdo's like me who buy music that wasn't well recorded on cd which was then put on vinyl with improper equalization or whatever techniques are involved.  

The 'craft' of music is mostly lost on modern music.  I think older records by far sound better than new stuff.  Take a listen to Parliament's Mothership Connection on 1- The original release 2- The re-release 180g and 3- the Remastered CD.
1 sounds great, lots of life and a good soundstage... fun was being had by all.
2 sounds like 1 for the most part but with a slight veil
3 sounds like the life was sucked out, levels were changed, and the soundstage is just weird.

I have to agree with Nathan on that aspect...  I think older recording quality couldn't rely on processor power to fix mistakes.

What's sad is that some artists I like I can't even listen to except some live concerts... like Coldplay.  On CD  However, I think the 'louder is better' is clearly working in this case... Sorry Nathan, if Polka was recorded mo' louder, I think it'd be in line for more grammies!  For instance, 'Those Darn Accordians' hasn't won an award and it's recorded very well.  

Anyway.. The craft of music recording/engineering is definitely declining in favor of the quick buck... or 99 cents (Thanks, Apple!)... I've been trying to get into music that was recorded live... and isn't a 'label' so I can hear what the group really sounds like.  

-C