[Sonnie Parker]

Hmmm... wonder if I can get an unbiased opinion here. (No sarcasm intended... I'm being serious.)

Okay... I've got my RM30's on the way and plan on adding a couple of subs.  I've somewhat investigated the Larger's but I hearing some mixed emotions about them.  Obviously here I'm reading some pretty good things.  On the other hand when investigating the RM30's I got nothing but rave regardless of where I looked... see my point.  IOW's I couldn't find the first person to say anything bad or even remotely negative about the RM models yet I did find some questionable comments about the Larger's.

Anyway... has anyone been able to compare the HGS-15's or even DD-15's up against the Larger's?

I realize we are not comparing apples to apples with retail prices here but that's not a concern... the concern is which is really a better sub from a comparison standpoint.

Even if you haven't compared the two I still welcome your comments and opinions... biased or unbiased.

I'll be placing the two subs in an 1800 square foot room that is extremely well sealed... strictly home theater use... okay ... maybe 99% HT and 1% Music.

Thanks!

[warnerwh]

Here's some various people's opinions of the Larger Sub: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/VMPS/PRD_120738_2741crx.aspx

Also I owned a pair of speakers that essentially had Larger subs built in. The bass quality and power is nothing short of awesome. I'm very picky when it comes to my bass. Brian has received great comments from reviewers regarding his bass quality and quantity since the early eighties.  The bass is also fast enough to keep up with the planars. A transient response like this is rare in most subs I've heard. I run a Vmps sub with my RM 40's and have to keep the sub turned way down or it would overwhelm not only my room but my house.  

If you do some research on the Velodyne's with the servo correction circuitry you'll learn that the correction takes place after the error started.  There had been discussion regarding servo's for subs over at AA a couple of years ago.  The person who has the speakers I refer to above with the Largers built in is in awe of them.  He used to have a Velodyne sub btw.  The weaknesses of the Larger sub are: NONE!

[Sonnie Parker]

Yup... I read everyone of those.  Although it's about the same with any of the quality subs over there... everyone thinks they got the best because it's what they own right now.  Larger rated 4.87 vs HGS-15 rated 4.85 but the lower rating is mainly based on value.... granted there is more bang for the buck with the Larger's... but do they really perform as good or better.

Now about the correction after the fact.  THD is measured in third party testing pretty much the same way.  The HGS's have some super low distortion ratings and that measurement is a constant measurement throughout the testing... not just after the correction is performed.  Their servo technology (as I understand it) is simply to limit the over excursion of the sub... it stops it right before it is on the verge of destroying it... but I don't want to make this a debate about that.  

The real question is can I get just as good performance from the Largers (with the built in amp) as I can the HGS's?

Think about the amps too... the HGS amp is 1250/3000... lots of headroom which is good for subs... right?


Please understand... I'm trying to justify if the Larger's are worth me taking a chance on.

[warnerwh]

Sonny: Did you go through the owners list in the sticky? Maybe there's someone near you.  I don't blame you for not wanting to listen to other people's opinions that you don't know.

I can tell you that the bass quality is outstanding and I'm a true bass lover.  The articulation, depth and power is as good as I've ever heard.  I'd say it's so good that I don't know what more anyone could possibly want from a subwoofer.  

With all the large drivers in the Larger sub and the huge cabinet no trickery or b.s. is needed.  Simple and effective with low distortion, accuracy and power.

[Sonnie Parker]

No one close by... closest is Orlando, Florida with a Larger but that's a 9 hour drive.

I shipping wasn't so blasted high I'd just about pay to try a pair out but Brian doesn't offer any kind of trial that I know of... not many company's do other than SVS that I know of.

[ctviggen]

It looks like to buy the velodyne, you're talking $3,000 for two of them.  The price for two Largers would be 1680.  You can buy a nice amplifier here:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--QSCPLX3402

For $1200, which would give you a total price less than what you can get two velodynes for.  It should be noted that I do not like the QSC amps, as you have to replace the fan for it to be useful in a room.   However, I can't think of the other amp that people recommend for sub amps.  As for Velodyne v. Larger, I haven't heard the Velodyne so I don't know.  I also have an SVS (20-39; it's called the PC+ now) and the Larger blows that away, although the QSC 3402 has a lot more power per channel than my SVS does.

[ctviggen]

I thought all VMPS speakers had a trial period?

[Jon L]

When it comes subs of this high quality, what is MOST important is not the differences in cabinet/drivers/amp IMO.  The thing that will make or break the subs/speaker combo is your ability to do EQ/room correction with the subs to tame the room.

They're all good subs, so I would buy the pair you can buy at the lowest price and then buy something like DEQX, TACT, etc.

[ctviggen]

That is true -- room correction will help (as will room treatments).  But if you're going to use the subs on less than 80Hz (or so), the single EQ in the amps for VMPS (does velodyne have the same?) will work well.  If you plan on going higher, you might have multiple room modes.  The TACT 2.2x is nice, but it's also $5,500.  So, not only would you be spending 3k for two subs, but you'd have to add 5.5k for the TACT.

[woodsyi]

I know John Casler is a dealer so he can't really tout his product but he has a pair of RM30s and 4 (yes) Larger subs in his room.  I was able to see John and have a listen in his super tweaked listening chair this past summer.  I believe he ran the 30s full and lowpassed the subs.  The sound was very good with seamlessly integrated bass.  We arranged for a time when his neighbors weren't around to check out the low end.  Good stuff.  Granted it wasn't from a HT set up but I can't emagine a pair of Largers disappointing you.  I have a pair of Largers that I mate with a pair of RM40s.  I use Crown K2 to drive them.  This is a dedicated 2 channel music so I can't comment on HT use but the subs do fine in Telearc 1812 overture with all those cannon shots.  They also handle tight bass guitar riffs, Dagu drum rolls and deep rumbling organ notes with ease.  

Why do you need all this for HT?  I am not trying to be a 2 channel snob but wouldn't something that cost less do for HT?  I use an Aperion 12" sub that does fine with movies...

[ScottMayo]

"Yup... I read everyone of those. Although it's about the same with any of the quality subs over there... everyone thinks they got the best because it's what they own right now."

Not quite true. I own an Earthquake sub. I bought it because I didn't want to tie myself entirely to one speaker line (at that time ) and because I didn't see negative comments about it. I figured the raw power would be useful for movies, and some sloppiness wouldn't much affect my enjoyment of music.

Not my best audio decision, I'm sorry to say. Oh, the thing has power to spare - in a large room, I never turn it up even a fourth of the way, and a tenth is more typical. I leave it off for music - it's unlistenable. It's muddy, and there have been electrical and noise issues. Let's just say that I don't plan to be an Earthquake dealer. I'm in process of getting myself set up with a Larger and I'm very much looking forward to having oceans of clean bass.

Now I'm going to be a heretic and get myself in trouble: If you're only doing HT, your choice may not matter all that much. (Well, except Earthquake, maybe.) A good sub is a good sub.

If that 1% music starts to creep up, though, I can't recommend the Larger enough. And you're getting the RM-30's - your appreciation for well recorded music is about to skyrocket. Last night I uncreated RM-30's for my rear channels, and got to experience the way VMPS speakers integrate, and the amazing kind of detail the 30's provide. You are in for a rare and glorious treat.

Me, I'd suggest the Larger without hesitation. Take two, they're massive.   You aren't in my sales area and I'm not getting paid to suggest them; I just think that with the 30's already on the docket, you owe it to yourself to do VMPS again. You'll have power, clarity, and zero regret.

In any case, look for an amp with a high damping factor; in a large room, look for at least 300W of power and more won't hurt. Sub amps are one place where digital amps have promise, and something like a Nuforce ref 9 amp will be perfect. And if you feel the need to crack plaster and contravene arms treaties, the Larger could be biamped - not too common in subs, and heaven help the house you do it in, but it's possible.

1800 square feet, hm? What are the actual dimensions? That's a serious amount of space. Is the room treated? Will you be using EQ?

[Bob15]

Granted it wasn't from a HT set up but I can't emagine a pair of Largers  ...

For home theater its all about having a sub (or two) that will go deep and is powerful - one that has high excursion and can move a lot of air.  More and more DVDs are being released today with subsonic bass well below 20 Hz region.  The Batman Returns DVD had some passages below 10 Hz and the ability to reproduce that at high enough SPL levels to "feel" it (since you won't hear it) is the real excitment in a great home theater today, and the soundtrack mixes are only going to get better.  I'm not sure any subwoofwer on the market today can get down that low. You'd need to build one or a Infinite Baffle design for that matter but I have heard that the Velodynes can get down very low with little distortion or mudiness.

[ctviggen]

If the room really is 1800 ft^2, that's 50 by 36.  That's huge.  You're going to need two subs (I have three -- two largers and one SVS in my room, which is on the order of 600 square feet, one third as large as your room).

[Corbin Johnson]

My suggestion is to go with a VMPS sub just because it will most likely be the best sub to integrate with the RM30's for music since Brian builds them and uses the same type of drivers, passive, etc.  I had a nice Paradigm sub, but it didn't integrate well with my 40's so I got the VMPS larger.  I remember reading at Zybar's shootout between the RM40's and Salks that everyone liked the VMPS subs with the 40's, but not the Salks.  I interpret this to be an integration problem between two different products.  So, my conclusion is matching products (just like you do a center channel) is more important than selecting what you think may be the best sub, unless you only intend to use it for home theater.

Corbin

[jgubman]

For EQ, I'd suggest looking into a Velodyne SMS-1. MSRP is $700 and they can be found for less all over the place (I think an authorized dealer is selling them for $600 on audiogon).

This is the same room correction that's built into Velodyne's DD series subs, and offers adjustable phase, polarity, crossover and 8 bands of parametric EQ. The best thing it offers is an on-screen (you hook it up to a TV) frequency sweep graph and microphone that gives you instant feed back as you're adusting the parametric EQ.

I recently paired a SMS-1 w/ my two Largers (which are amazingly good subwoofer, by the way) and it's probably the single best improvement I've made to the bass in my room.

[Sonnie Parker]

When it comes subs of this high quality, what is MOST important is not the differences in cabinet/drivers/amp IMO.  The thing that will make or break the subs/speaker combo is your ability to do EQ/room correction with the subs to tame the room.

They're all good subs, so I would buy the pair you can buy at the lowest price and then buy something like DEQX, TACT, etc.

For EQ, I'd suggest looking into a Velodyne SMS-1. MSRP is $700 and they can be found for less all over the place (I think an authorized dealer is selling them for $600 on audiogon).

I'm all over that... I wrote the BFD GUIDE and I think I've posted my graph here before.... somewhere.  Flat and clean to 16hz... I sure wouldn't waste my money on a TACT or even an SMS when I can get the same results or better with $120.

Hopefully you guys have not missed the BFD.

If the room really is 1800 ft^2

OOPS... my mistake there... 1800 CUBIC feet!


I know what only one HGS will do in this room so I can feel pretty confident what two will do.  

I can trial SVS for 45 days.

If I could trial VMPS for 30 days (but only at courtesy discount pricing) I might would do this.  That may not sound fair to VMPS but I really don't want to pay retail for a product when I know that courtesy discounts are offered by several VMPS dealers.

[John Casler]

I know John Casler is a dealer so he can't really tout his product but he has a pair of RM30s and 4 (yes) Larger subs in his room.  I was able to see John and have a listen in his super tweaked listening chair this past summer.  I believe he ran the 30s full and lowpassed the subs.  The sound was very good with seamlessly integrated bass.  We arranged for a time when his neighbors weren't around to check out the low end.  Good stuff.  Granted it wasn't from a HT set up but I can't emagine a pair of Largers  ...

Hi Sonnie,

Yes, Woodsyi is correct, I do have a lot of experience with the LARGER VMPS sub and have 4 of them in my system.

My room is "over" 20' x 30' x 9' (5400cf plus) because it opens into the rest of my house.

I set my subs up specifically for "music", so that they provide the most detail and realism possible.

However, they are also "connected to my HT system which is in the same room, but placement is off center and not symetrical in the least.

I have no commerical room treatment for bass, but have a few "DIY tweaks" that help somewhat.

To be frank, I had not really "tested" my subs in the HT mode to any great degree, since I do have neighbors who live upstairs.

But, I recently picked up a projector, and a few days ago "screened" (I always wanted to be able to say that   ) War of the Worlds.

                             Is all I can say.

Never have I experienced what Dr HSU calls "the air shaking all around the room" as much as I did in my theater.

The one singular aspect of that film (which I saw 4 times in probably the best theater in the nation = Mann Bruin in Westwood) that impressed me most was the dynamic bass and thunderous sonic impressions of the special effects.

I had every bit of it in my HT (if not more).  I almost looked for a slot to put quarters in my love seat it was vibrating so much.

Will two LARGERs give you the same effect?

Well they do have that potential, but as many of the other posters have written, the key is to "tame and utilize" your room.  It needs treatment, and many times electronic equalization.

I know you are a BFD owner and this may be all you need, however a "totally enclosed" room is like a sonic fish tank.  It keeps all the energy created within itself and the only way to deal with it is through special means like have been mentioned.

I would suggest "experimentation", with placement as the first element in "set up".

You should be prepared to try all the corners, with subs, in and out of phase.  Side placement, stacked, on the floor, on stands (my current set up has the front subs on 18" stands and the rear subs on the floor) stacked on top of each other, one in the front and one in the rear, and any other configuration you can think of.

As I said, my current config is the front subs on 18" stands in the same plane as the front RM30s.  The rear subs are about two feet "behind" my listening position facing the rear wall and running "in phase" with the fronts.

And the bass is deep, powerful, and resolving for 2 channel, and when I move to the side of the room for HT, it is sonically dynamic and responsive beyond any HT or HT demo I have ever heard.

And one last point.  I run these subs with an Earthquake 3 channel power amp (rears) and currently use the Son of AMPzilla for the fronts.

SoA is only 200 (big) watts @ 4 ohms and the CineNova is 600wpc @ 4 ohms.  They don't break a sweat.  I would suggest at least 300wpc if you use 2 subs, and 200wpc if you use 3-4.

The 1000w VMPS amp will provide enough power for "any" dynamic you might throw at it.

[Sonnie Parker]

Yup... I've done the placement experiments with my one HGS-15... I know two might be somewhat of a challenge but I will get it there.


I'll be powering my 3 RM30's across the front with an Grande 5... a couple of channels left over for reserve.  Picked it up used or will be picking it up Thursday.  I'm gonna use my Denon to power the two surrounds.

[John Casler]

Yup... I've done the placement experiments with my one HGS-15... I know two might be somewhat of a challenge but I will get it there.


I'll be powering my 3 RM30's across the front with an Grande 5... a couple of channels left over for reserve.  Picked it up used or will be picking it up Thursday.  I'm gonna use my Denon to power the two surrounds.

If you have the two extra channels, they could be used for the LARGERs.

[KJ]

And one last point. I run these subs with an Earthquake 3 channel power amp (rears) and currently use the Son of AMPzilla for the fronts.

SoA is only 200 (big) watts @ 4 ohms and the CineNova is 600wpc @ 4 ohms. They don't break a sweat. I would suggest at least 300wpc if you use 2 subs, and 200wpc if you use 3-4.

John, I'm assuming your Largers have the megawoofers.  Brian's instructions on the Larger sub indicate that you should have 300 watts RMS per driver or 600 watts RMS if you drive both of them with a single amp (bridge cable).  Each driver is an 8ohm load, 4ohms if bridged together.  That being the case, do you feel that the 300watts RMS per driver recommendation is overkill?

-KJ