Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

soundguy3 · « **Reply #20 on:** 15 May 2003, 11:47 pm »

Hi,

Interesting thread....I just received my EAR MKII Stereo Digital Amp and the Front EAR PreAmp.... it's been a week now, and the resolving power of this combo is just plain stunning...things sound so very real and "right", very smooth and analogue, with lot's of dynamics. Every time I sit down to listen, I end up saying this is "right"....and this is with older high end speakers....will be adding new VMPS RM40's....should be even better.

There definitley is something to this digital technology.

Sguy3

BrunoB · « **Reply #21 on:** 15 May 2003, 11:57 pm »

I have a Sony AVD-S50ES all-digital amp design. One simple way to understand how it works: it is a SACD player with a high voltage output that has enough current to drive a speaker directly. The volume control determines the voltage that is applied to the DA transistor. No interconnects. No preamp. Possibly one of the shortest pathway

It sounds much much better than my Sony STRD4-ES HT receiver. It is not as powerful, but it is more detailed, sweeter, less harsh, more liquid, less grainy. With SACD and a VMPS 626R HET (ribbon speaker), the treble is very extended and sweet. Vocals are much better. CD's sound almost as good as SACD (except for jazz or music with high treble percussions). I suspect that there is an oversampling effect (PCM->DSD 2.8Mhz). DTS, DD and CD's sound better on the AVD-S50ES than on my previous system (Sony SACD player + Sony STR-DA4ES) when playing SACDs. Even the radio (WCPE in Durham NC) some days sounds surprisingly good with chamber music (a visiting friend thought I was playing a SACD).

However, it is not perfect. Here is my review in Home theater forum:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1361113&t=12#post1361113

Here is a review on an older Sony similar product (with comparisons to high-end amps):

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Sony+%22digital+amp%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3CAD2AE7.42351BAD%40earthlink.net&rnum=1

I really like this digital amp. Hope that Sony will push the technology and come with a more powerful and more capable digital-amp HT receiver (e.g. with DTS-ES and DD-EX) in the future.

Bruno

Brad · « **Reply #22 on:** 16 May 2003, 03:40 pm »

Hey Bruno,

Thanks for the first hand review.
The lack of preamp outs bothers me a little.
I think the '70 will have plenty of power.

I'm just hoping to use it as my ht AND music system for a year or two.

Then I plan on rebuilding another SET system built around a Teres.

Brad V · « **Reply #23 on:** 16 May 2003, 04:51 pm »

Hey Bruno,

You're welcome to try your digital Sony out with my Speakers and compare it with my SET Amp. I'm about 90 minutes away.

Have a great day,

Brad

hoxuanduc · « **Reply #24 on:** 16 May 2003, 08:26 pm »

Regardless, this all-in-one design makes a lot of sense for music lovers who also value convenience!

Assuming it's above Rotel league as discussed in one of the referenced thread, it must be one of the best audio bargain out-there.

$600 = one box replacing DVD/CD/SACD player -> interconnect -> preamp -> interconnect -> amp!!! Wow!

So what if I don't have preamo out or have to ship the entire unit in if it breaks down. If I like the sound, why would I care if it has preamp out or not. If I don't have interconnects, I can't listen to my system anyway...

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 May 2003, 10:40 pm »

I currently have the unit breaking in the bedroom (5 disc model).

I am told by other users that breaking-in was required. Boy were they right.

After the first day, it's starting to markedly open up very, very nicely. Users say that 150+ hours plus is needed. So it will be interesting how much better this thing can get.

The DVD player also has very nice color saturation--as is expected on Sony DVD ES models.

SACD and CD also sound very good, but won't comment until I break this puppy in.

IMHO, no matter how you cut it, this thing is a TRUE bargain for all of the features and sound quality you get!
-----------------------------------------

*MINOR* ISSUES:
BTW, it does have a fan, but is always off unless CRANKED. Only once has it turned on when I was pushing the amp. The fan is *very* quiet and only comes on when cranked. Even if the fan HYPOTHETICALLY turned on at extremely low volume levels, I'd be VERY hard-pressed to catch it from the bed which is saying a lot as I have extremely sensitive hearing.......Thus, the fan is a NON-ISSUE, at any volume level. Remember, it only comes on at VERY high SPLs,so you wouldn't hear it at all--no way, no way, no way.

As also mentioned before, I wish it went louder. Of course it goes to very high volume levels--more than what could possibly need in a mid-sized room (we're talking hearing loss levels). However, I'm spoiled by ear bleeding volumes coming from my huge reference amps so my perspective is warped. I have to put this issue in perspective.

-------------------------------

No question this makes for a more than competetnt enthusiast system for my bedroom. Simple, clean and great sounding.

This unit defines what's going to be possible with digital at this pricepoint and with its features (DVD, SACD). The future is bright for this Tripath technology. I'm a happy camper.

I'll report more later.............

P.S. Remember, this unit isn't meant to replace your reference systems....It will, however, make for a "cracking" (as the British say) smaller room system while saving you bags of money in the process.

BrunoB · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 May 2003, 11:01 pm »

I have an AVD-S50ES. At the beginning, I could not play loud without distortions and bass was weak. But the sound was very sweet from the start. I would say that my unit needed at least two weeks of breaking in time.

The fan on my system is not very noticeable but is always on when playing discs.

For playing movies, I am using a Samsung HDTV. The picture seems to be very good - but I don't have another DVD player to compare to. However, with "Attack of the clone", the picture has a red shadow, very noticeable on the text at the introduction. Other DVD's are OK.

I don't think that this unit is based on Tripath technology. Sony calls their all digital amplifier "S-Master", which is not referenced by Tripath.

Welcome to the club. I am happy to see that now I am not only one enjoying these digital amps!

Bruno

Quote from: TheeeChosenOne

I currently have the unit breaking in the bedroom (5 disc model).

I am told by other users that breaking-in was required. Boy were they right.

After the first day, it's starting to open up very, very, very nicely. This thing is a TRUE bargain for all of the features and sound quality you get!

The DVD player also has very nice color saturation--as is expected on Sony DVD ES models.

-----------------------------------------

*MINOR* ISSUES:
BTW, it does have a fan, but is always off u ...

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 May 2003, 11:18 pm »

I've read on other forums that it is indeed Tripath. I'm not going to open the machine to find out though.

I think I accomplished my mission of getting a very good sounding unit of this convenience for one of my rooms.

JoshK · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 May 2003, 11:24 pm »

If it is half as good as it is said to be then it is a steal IMO. I almost wished I had waited and got one of these for my HT, as I am not too into the sonics of movies but would like a bit of theater sound.

BrunoB · « **Reply #29 on:** 17 May 2003, 11:19 pm »

Quote from: TheeeChosenOne

I've read on other forums that it is indeed Tripath. I'm not going to open the machine to find out though.

Well, my unit has five big aluminium chips with "S-Master" written on them. According to this link, S-Master is a Sony proprietary technology:
http://www.sony.com.hk/Electronics/pr_t/pr/dav-030902_eng.htm

"The new models come with Sony's proprietary S-Master full Digital Amplifiers which supply a suite of five high power satellite speakers and a sub-woofer, delivering crisp, powerful sounds indispensable for maximum movie and music enjoyment. The S-Master employs the latest integrated circuit technologies to eliminate analogue signal errors, cross-over and thermal distortions that fundamentally limit traditional power amplifier designs. The result is a stable, cool-running operation in an ultra-compact case, for a transparent musical path to the original performance, redefining the relationship between size and performance. "

TheeeChosenOne, what speakers do you have? I have read somewhere that you have VMPS-40 and Ascend Acoustic speakers. Have you tried your digital amp with your VMPS ribbons? I would be interested to reas about your experience. I have 5 Ascend Acoutics and two new VMPS 626R HET.

Bruno

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #30 on:** 18 May 2003, 05:39 am »

Good information. From what I've read on other boards from people much more knoweldgeable in the matter, they've said these ES units use Tripath. Maybe the non-ES Hong Kong models in your link use Sony's proprietary technology. They do have different amp power ratings and the THD is different (higher for the HK models--10% vs .7%). And they're non-ES listed.

In this blurb, it mentions Sony using the Tripath amplification among the list of manufacturers using the technology:
http://www.tripath.com/021903.htm

Who knows, go figure.

Anyways...

-----------------------
I have not tried to link it up to my RM40's yet. I have he Sony in a smaller cheaper bedroom HT setup--yes with Ascends.

Bruno, great minds think alike eh? Ascends & VMPS in da house!

Jay S · « **Reply #31 on:** 18 May 2003, 08:38 am »

Quote from: TheeeChosenOne

Maybe the non-ES Hong Kong models in your link use Sony's proprietary technology. They do have different amp power ratings. And they're non-ES listed.

The power rating of the non-ES HK models are taken at a THD of 10%!! That compares with THD of 0.7% for the Tripath-equipped ES model. If I were Sony I wouldn't be too proud of their proprietary technology.

I do appreciate the link as I had recommended the ES to a friend of friend here in HK but didn't realize the local model was so different.

Harmon · « **Reply #32 on:** 18 May 2003, 12:04 pm »

Quote from: soundguy3

Hi,

Interesting thread....I just received my EAR MKII Stereo Digital Amp and the Front EAR PreAmp.... it's been a week now, and the resolving power of this combo is just plain stunning...things sound so very real and "right", very smooth and analogue, with lot's of dynamics. Every time I sit down to listen, I end up saying this is "right"....and this is with older high end speakers....will be adding new VMPS RM40's....should be even better.

There definitley is something to this digital technology.

Sguy3

I own the the Ear Mk11 also and it made my 14 year old Monitor Audio speakers sound highly realistic, natural and dynamic. Some digital amps do have a dry sound but the Ear Mk11 has a fluid analogue sound that is also very detailed and texturally accurate. I ordered and will be recieving the Tetra Classic 3-way speakers soon along with the Front Ear preamp.

BrunoB · « **Reply #33 on:** 18 May 2003, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: Harmon

I own the the Ear Mk11 also and it made my 14 year old Monitor Audio speakers sound highly realistic, natural and dynamic. Some digital amps do have a dry sound but the Ear Mk11 has a fluid analogue sound that is also very detailed and texturally accurate. I ordered and will be recieving the Tetra Classic 3-way speakers soon along with the Front Ear preamp.

I searched the web and found that the Ear II is using a technology called "Ice power" (they claim 93% efficiency for their digital amps).

It seems that Sony used or is still using this technology:
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/

Quote

Based on ICEpower® technology.
ICEpower® is the industry standard for Switching Amplifiers, used by Jeff Rowland (High-End power amplifiers), Sony (consumer subwoofers), Bang & Olufsen (active loudspeakers), Sanyo (consumer power amplifiers), Philips (professional systems), just to mention a few. With its built-in proprietary feedback system, the sound quality is in no way comparable with existing switching amplifiers. The benefit is in short: Reliability, stability and of course the highest possible sound quality. As it is being used all over the World, it is your assurance of proven technology that just works.

(Acoustic Reality from Denmark was the first company in the world to introduce a separate power amplifier with the ICEpower® technology to the High-End market. Today Acoustic Reality and the Jeff Rowland design group from the USA are the only companies, that are manufacturing separate High-End power amplifiers with power ratings up to 300 Watts into an 8 ohm load with the ICEpower technology, both companies are using 100% equal ICEpower® output stages, but the power supply, input filters and output filters are different.)

Harmon, how do you connect a SACD player to your amp? One nice thing about the Sony approach is that it can handle SACD data directly, it does not need a preamp.
Same for the Sharp design ( interesting review from Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?253)

As far as I know, only Sharp and Sony can handle the DSD 2.8MHz data stream directly. If you know another one, please feel free to post a comment.

Bruno

Harmon · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 May 2003, 12:38 am »

Quote from: BrunoB

Harmon, how do you connect a SACD player to your amp? One nice thing about the Sony approach is that it can handle SACD data directly, it does not need a preamp.
Same for the Sharp design ( interesting review from Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?253)

As far as I know, only Sharp and Sony can handle the DSD 2.8MHz data stream directly. If you know another one, please feel free to post a comment.

Bruno

Right now I have the Little Wonder passive between my Phillips SACD-1000 and my Mk11 monoblocks. I will be getting the Acoustic Reality Front Ear Preamp which IMO is a reference killer preamp. If I connected my Phillips SACD player directly to my monoblocks there would be no way to control the sound volume. Players that have preamps built into them are sort of taking technology backwards in time. IMO the more separate the components are the better the sound.

BrunoB · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 May 2003, 11:29 pm »

Quote from: Harmon

Right now I have the Little Wonder passive between my Phillips SACD-1000 and my Mk11 monoblocks. I will be getting the Acoustic Reality Front Ear Preamp which IMO is a reference killer preamp. If I connected my Phillips SACD player directly to my monoblocks there would be no way to control the sound volume. Players that have preamps built into them are sort of taking technology backwards in time. IMO the more separate the components are the better the sound.

The drawback of this approach is that it requires two D/A (analog output for the SACD player + amplifier to speaker) and one A/D conversions (input of the amp) versus only one D/A conversion for the Sony combo. From looking at the specs, the Ear amps are quite more powerful but I guess that five of them will be much more expensive too.

I could not find any sampling frequency for the D/A and A/D stages of the Ear amps. Any ideas?

Bruno

BrunoB · « **Reply #36 on:** 29 Jul 2003, 10:52 pm »

Quote from: BrunoB

I have a Sony AVD-S50ES all-digital amp design. One simple way to understand how it works: it is a SACD player with a high voltage output that has enough current to drive a speaker directly. The volume control determines the voltage that is applied to the DA transistor. No interconnects. No preamp. Possibly one of the shortest pathway

It sounds much much better than my Sony STRD4-ES HT receiver. It is not as powerful, but it is more detailed, sweeter, less harsh, more liquid, less grainy. With SAC ...

Well, after six months of use, I have a problem with my Sony AVD-S50ES: the sound changes from day to day. Some days it is sweet and rich and other days grainy and not involving. I suspect that the quality of the power is the cause of these sound variations. I bought a Monster power filter (HTS-2000), but it did not help.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks,

Bruno

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #37 on:** 30 Jul 2003, 12:03 am »

Well, I have no problem with my multi-disc version of this unit.

Maybe it needs repair?...

Harmon · « **Reply #38 on:** 30 Jul 2003, 12:07 am »

Did you ever think of using a power conditioner. A power conditioner that Stan Warren recommends is the Vansevers conditioners at vansevers.com. It is the only power conditioner Stan recommends since it is the only one that does not shrink the sound stage or reduce the details coming through your system. Just a thought.

JoshK · « **Reply #39 on:** 30 Jul 2003, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: Harmon

Right now I have the Little Wonder passive between my Phillips SACD-1000 and my Mk11 monoblocks. I will be getting the Acoustic Reality Front Ear Preamp which IMO is a reference killer preamp. If I connected my Phillips SACD player directly to my monoblocks there would be no way to control the sound volume. Players that have preamps built into them are sort of taking technology backwards in time. IMO the more separate the components are the better the sound.

Have you had a chance to hear the Front Ear?