[clarkjohnsen]

Don't think I've seen this here, stop me if I'm wrong.

Some gorgeous piccys!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/gordon_rives.htm

clark

[ctviggen]

That's a lot of LPs!  I still think he'd be better off with more bass trapping in the corners behind the speakers -- white real traps mondo traps would go there, or the real traps soffit traps.  Some 8th nerve corner and seam traps wouldn't be bad, either.

[ScottMayo]

I still think he'd be better off with more bass trapping in the corners behind the speakers -- white real traps mondo traps would go there, or the real traps soffit traps.  Some 8th nerve corner and seam traps wouldn't be bad, either.

It's nice evidence that a room can look good when treated, something some people don't believe.

The comment about $30,000 for acoustic engineering is obscene, though. At the usual risk of plugging my product, you can get good advice for a few hundred, and spend a few hundred in materials, and get wonderful results. (You can also buy commercial products instead of building your own, and then the price can rise over a thousand or two, but lots of people spend that on an amp and never even blink.)

I don't know how to say this any louder than I already have, but: before you spend $1000 on a power cord or even on interconnects, spend $500 on some simple bass trapping. That, at least! Your room is half of your sound system, and if you have an audiophile system and spend what we tend to spend, fixing the room costs a LOT less than half of what you'll spend on gear. In the long run it can save you a fortune: you may find that in a good, treated room, you don't burn through equipment, taking a loss on every upgrade, trying to fix a problem that is not electronic.

Absorption and diffusion are boring: but they work, reliably, cheaply, and without exception.

[csero]

Your room is half of your sound system...

No, your roon IS your sound system. Without treatment it will sound like an untreated small room with two speakers in it, after treatment it will sound like a treated (dead) small room with two speakers in it  

[RGordonpf]

If you don't have bass humps, why would you need bass traps.  The room has a big hump at 30Hz which disappears when I turn off the Larger Subwoofer.  However, for Rock and Soundtracks the hump at 30Hz is quite enjoyable.  Since I have a volume control on the external crossover that goes to the Larger, I can control the size of the hump from huge to non-existant   For Classical or Jazz, there is almost no information at 30Hz, so the hump does not exist even with the Larger turned on and cranked up.  Best of both worlds.

There is a minor hump at 120Hz that adds a little warmth to the sound.  I may not do anything about it as it doesn't bother me and the small coloration is euphonic.

The LPs pictured are just a portion of my classical collection.

[warnerwh]

Scott is exactly right that the room should be a major priority.  The improvement can easily be quite dramatic and enlightening. This does take some time and experimentation to do if you can't or don't want to pay someone else to do it but is well worth every penny spent.  Certainly it's far more important than electronics and certainly wire.  Don't waste money on a better piece of electronics or wire before this is done.  If building from scratch put the room treatment in the budget as it has more influence on the sound than any other piece of gear you buy except the speakers.

The next step in my opinion is some sort of digital signal processing.  After living with a Behringer DEQ 2496 the last two weeks I'm convinced it's easily one of the very best bargains in audio.  The Behringer should also be purchased before spending any significant money on electronics or wire.  If spending in the neighborhood of 2000 for a system it should be considered a necessity, spend less on something else to make sure you have it.

The difference the Behringer made in my fully treated dedicated listening room is fantastic.  If you guys want to make your system sound better by a wide margin then this piece or the Tact if you have the money is a must have.  I feel it's a must have for any system period and won't go without some sort of DSP again.  If there's a piece of gear for 300 bucks that can improve my system more I'd sure love to hear about it.

Now all I need is a pair of new waveguides for the RM 40's in there and I'll be done at least until I decide I need some other new toy.  Speakers stay though.

[ScottMayo]

Your room is half of your sound system...

No, your roon IS your sound system. Without treatment it will sound like an untreated small room with two speakers in it, after treatment it will sound like a treated (dead) small room with two speakers in it  

There's no denying that small rooms are a big problem. I have a computer nook that's about 8'x8'x10' or so - I haven't even tried to fix the sound in there.

[warnerwh]

Scott try headphones. I'm using some Sennheiser 580's that sound great and only cost about 125 or something.  They have the side benefit of not being able to hear the females yelling down to me.

[csero]

Your room is half of your sound system...

No, your roon IS your sound system. Without treatment it will sound like an untreated small room with two speakers in it, after treatment it will sound like a treated (dead) small room with two speakers in it  

There's no denying that small rooms are a big problem. I have a computer nook that's about 8'x8'x10' or so - I haven't even tried to fix the sound in there.

Most audiophile rooms are "small" with very loud early reflections and too short decay compared to any real venue where music usually performed.
Treatment makes the early reflections not as loud, but the decay even shorter.

[ScottMayo]

Most audiophile rooms are "small" with very loud early reflections and too short decay compared to any real venue where music usually performed.
Treatment makes the early reflections not as loud, but the decay even shorter.

I'm the first to admit that a stereo system in a room, no matter how treated, cannot make the room into a orchestral hall. If that's the goal, plan on a large room, make it as nearly anerochic as you can, and add extra channels to simulate the reveberation and decay. It won't be perfect and frankly, season passes at the theater would be much cheaper. (Or build a hall-sized room. Season passes for a decade will be cheaper.)

Maybe the headphone folk have an answer here. Anyone want to comment on the combination of headphones and a subwoofer?

Bryston sells a processor that tries to fake up large spaces. I'll do a rare bit of Bryston-bashing: it doesn't really work. 5.1 is not enough channels to reproduce the stadium or hall sound. It yields some neat effects, and I use it to pad out the occasional badly recorded album. But it's synthetic syrup.

(For grins I just kicked a MercyMe album into "Church" mode. Unlistenable. "Stadium" worked much better, but the room signature is there, underneath. The room wasn't built to subtract itself out completely. Neo:6 works ok.)

[warnerwh]

The bottom line though is that properly done treatments can add substantially to the enjoyment and sound quality.  Room treatments have a larger impact than amplifiers, preamps, dacs and any wire you care to name.  A good acoustical environment doesn't add much cost especially considering the return on your investment.  At least this has been my experience in two different rooms.

Without room treatment the amplitude response is typically horrible.  Add the phase errors and the need for a good acoustical environment makes itself clear.  Being forced into a room with walls we all need to address the issue if you're a serious listener.  Even a Best Buy system can benefit considerably from a good acoustical environment.

[John Casler]

If you don't have bass humps, why would you need bass traps.  The room has a big hump at 30Hz which disappears when I turn off the Larger Subwoofer.  However, for Rock and Soundtracks the hump at 30Hz is quite enjoyable.  Since I have a volume control on the external crossover that goes to the Larger, I can control the size of the hump from huge to non-existant   For Classical or Jazz, there is almost no information at 30Hz, so the hump does not exist even with the Larger turned on and cranked up.  Best of  ...

Hi Roger,

That room looks great.  

Another little solution to your two humps (if they ever do begin to bother you is the R-DES syststem from AV123 (although I think they just re-did the software in it again)

But if they don't bother you, or are pleasing then what the heck

[RGordonpf]

Another little solution to your two humps (if they ever do begin to bother you is the R-DES syststem from AV123 (although I think they just re-did the software in it again)

Hi John,  

I agree that an equalizer that allows you to select the center frequency, the Q, and the amount of cut is the way to deal with the 120Hz hump.  The problem with most equalizers is that they are digital.  While I have over 1,000 CDs, I do most of my critical listening with LPs.  Going from analog to digital and back to analog for equalization is clearly audible.  There are analog equalizers such as the Rives Audio PARC ($3,200).  The PARC is strictly analog and only cuts, it does not boost.  As good as that unit is, it is still audible.  Some of my friends with high resolution systems have tried the PARC.  It works amazingly well.  However, even in bypass mode, the unit is audible because you have to add another set of interconnects into the signal path.  A high resolution system is both a blessing and a curse.  Yes, you can hear everything on the recording, but you can also hear everything in the system including adding another pair of very high quality interconnects.

So, yes, your suggestion is right on.  When I get a chance I will borrow a PARC to see if removing the minor 120Hz hump is worth the sonic degradation caused by the addition of another pair of interconnects.

So little time, so much music!

Roger

[ctviggen]

Well, a bass trap doesn't operate at a single frequency (even high W traps operate at a relatively large frequency range).  And your traps will provide some bass trapping.   I personally don't like bass humps in a room, but if you do, that's all that counts.  

I find it hard to believe, though, that classical music doesn't activate low bass:

http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-388483.php

Certainly the piano, bass tuba and double bass are going to activate your lower room modes.  And don't forget that second harmonics will activate room modes, though to a lower degree (and remember that if you have two room modes that couple, activating one will activate the other).

[ctviggen]

That W should be Q.

[miklorsmith]

I agree the room is a big deal, but before you spend the dough there, figure out what the issue is you need to correct.  This may sound obvious, but money should not be blindly thrown at room treatments any more than wires or preamplifiers, or anything else.

[ScottMayo]

I agree the room is a big deal, but before you spend the dough there, figure out what the issue is you need to correct.  This may sound obvious, but money should not be blindly thrown at room treatments any more than wires or preamplifiers, or anything else.

Short of working up a treatment plan, some things are obvious and should almost always be done. Bass traps in 2 adjacent corners are just about always a good idea: not too many rooms are inherently bass friendly. After that, covering some of the first reflection points is a good idea. Where you go after that depends on lots of things; but those two changes alone can level out a bunch of FR problems, and bring imaging up a bit.

I'm a proponent of building your own flat traps, especially if you're going to experiment. A simple and reasonably efficient HF trap can be tossed together for reasonable dollars, and there's some economy of scale if you decide to build a bunch. If you get a combination you like, then you can spring for pretty commercial traps where you need them.

[nathanm]

Very cool panels!  I can't imagine any W not A'ing that.  Looks very stylish and architectural, like maybe something you'd see in a public building such as a museum or library etc.

The same goes for my Twisted Sister albums. Great recordings these are not, but with the new room acoustics, they sound significantly more real and alive.

Well now there's something you don't read everyday in the hi-fi press!  Leonard Bernstein and Twisted Sister!  Woo!

[matix]

I find it hard to believe, though, that classical music doesn't activate low bass:

http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-388483.php

Certainly the piano, bass tuba and double bass are going to activate your lower room modes.  And don't forge ...

This is interesting.  I listen mainly to classical... Was told that the duble bass does not go down below 40Hz and was contented with my current speakers.  I am surprised at the piano.  Now I am troubled   as I know my speakers defintely can't go below 30.     My day has just been spoiled.

[RGordonpf]

The concert piano goes down to 27.5 Hz and the contra bassoon down to 29 Hz.  The double bass and tuba are both above 40Hz.  The lowest half octave on a concert piano is rarely used.  That is according to a professional concert pianist that I talked with.  The contra bassoon is not used that frequently in classical music and does not usually have a starring role.  So if your speakers only go down into the 30s, you are getting most of the music.

I like organ music, particularly the pedal notes, which is why I have a Larger sub.  My previous speakers only went in to the 30s and I was not aware that I was missing anything unless I was playing organ music.

If the above words don't cheer you up, just buy a Larger sub and a BIG solid state amp.  Deep bass should rattle your pant leg and be able to stun small animals, as well as playing all of the notes in an orchestra.