VMPS RM30C-CD production model evaluation

John B · « **on:** 1 Nov 2005, 01:44 pm »

Continuning in my role as Beta tester for the new technology + other, I'm starting up a new thread, basically so I can make notes as the days progress. Last night I heard some changes from the Beta model that were next generation stuff. Now the thing is this model has other upgrades: basically the full boat of what B offers and something not yet available as an option. The Constant Directivity Guide has been modified in a way that really OPENED things up tremendously, along with the wiring upgrade which I know from experience has this trait as one of it's major stengths. The combination of the better caps, wiring and improved CD guide produced some of the most tonally lush, incredible separation of instruments, and that downright toe tapping feeling that you just can't quantify, that I've ever heard from a speaker. And I was dog tired last night, so this is coming from not the best of all evaulation moods...but these RM30C-CD speakers will snap you out of whatever mood you're in and bring you, like it did B & I last night, to the unmistakeable headwater source of a recording. Ella Fitzgerald, on LP, she lit up my listening room last night, her voice was so present, and the orchestra, I finnally got the widescope imaging of that system of instruments on a scale that matches more so than any other sound system I've heard, the grandure of the real event. Breathtaking is not a word I use lightly anymore, I've been finding myself on the jaded side of things in regards to my passion for audio lately, but these babies snapped me right out that one last night

More to come.

jgubman · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Nov 2005, 03:28 pm »

Any chance to see some photos?

John B · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Nov 2005, 04:20 pm »

Quote

Any chance to see some photos?

In time, I'm waiting for my matching rosewood finish CD guide panel to come in before I do any photo shots. I also need to determine if the RM30C-CD will benefit from John Casler's riser tweak. I have the risers from AV123 and will try them once I have a few weeks under my belt getting used to the sound without them.

John B · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Nov 2005, 03:19 am »

Today I experimented with the riser tweak. The stands, which you can get from John Casler, were easy to set up; and I'll admit the effect was interesting, however, even with a sub, the bass response, including mid-bass, was diminished, and leaned toward muddy. Placing the speakers back on the floor brought back the tight bass, but I missed some of what the riser provided with openness and clarity. Then I used the base of the stand only to get the speaker off the carpet. That proved to be the right tweak for these speakers in my listening room environment. Clarity and openness improved, and even the bass response got better. So, a platform to sit the RM30C's on, getting them off the carpet, is a major must have, based on my experience today.

warnerwh · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Nov 2005, 05:28 am »

"I have the risers from AV123 and will try them once I have a few weeks under my belt getting used to the sound without them."

Gee John I think you must be on a different planet if a few weeks just went by, or is it me? I'd be interested in more feedback regarding the sound compared to non CD. Thanks

John B · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Nov 2005, 06:03 am »

Quote

I'd be interested in more feedback regarding the sound compared to non CD.

Yup those two weeks just flew by

As for CD vs non-CD, forgetaboutit. CD is next gen sound, non-CD is well, non-CD. Listen to any speaker without it, and you've got your comparsion...well, that is if you've heard CD.

I'll go into more details later. Just got the bug to try the riser tweak tonight.

mca · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Nov 2005, 05:36 pm »

Quote

Yup those two weeks just flew by icon_biggrin.gif As for CD vs non-CD, forgetaboutit. CD is next gen sound, non-CD is well, non-CD. Listen to any speaker without it, and you've got your comparsion...well, that is if you've heard CD. icon_wink.gif I'll go into more details later. Just got the bug to try the riser tweak tonight.

Any new updates you can give us? Can you give us a bit more detail about the differences you hear when listening to the CD version?

James Romeyn · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Nov 2005, 06:34 am »

Well, what the heck is meant by getting them up off the carpet? We all want to get it up more....but I digress. I mean, exactly how high do I want to get it?

Bass response is irrelevant for me because my 30s are high passed at 110 Hz (my room has huge 80 Hz bump) & the sub takes over below that.

Thanks John!

John B · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Nov 2005, 01:34 pm »

This will be my last report until my review comes out in PFO about the "VMPS CD speakers + the system" that will be heard at CES. Brian Cheney will be coming over tomorrow night to hear what is basically the system that will be shown at CES. B's speakers and subwoofer, Bruce Moore tube monoblocks, Bruce Moore tube preamp, Xtreme cables both external and internal as hookup wire, APS Audiophile Pure Power 1050 power regenerator, and the Grand Prix amp stand for the monoblocks. I've spent about 30 listening hours with "the system", and my impression is "it's about the most musical and natural sound I've ever experienced" from audio electronics. I was listening to some vinyl last night and decided to crawl over to the amps which rest on the Grand Prix stands between the speakers. As my head crossed the median line between the two speakers I got a perfect example I can give you of what CD does...the imaging didn't disappear and the sound didn't drop behind me as I crossed the plane of the speakers; as I adjusted my bias on the tubes the music was so goood sitting right there I stayed for awhile to just listen...sitting between the speakers with the drivers perhaps an inch forward of my ears. Try that with a non-CD speaker, tell me what happens...that is the best example I can think of to show you "technically" what CD does different. I will speak to all the other aspects of what CD Technology does in my review...hopefully before CES but there's a lot to cover and I'm going to working my tired ass off the next two weeks to get this done in time. Worth it though, this has been a very unique and exciting experience beta testing these speakers for B. Now that they've taken the crown as my reference speakers, the work put in and the work to come makes it all worthwhile.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 01:43 am »

John was kind enough to allow me to hear his system last night. I agree with Brian it is one of the best systems sampled. There is a tactile integration, kind of a touchable quality to the sound from top to bottom, that is among the best. The size & position of each instrument/vocal, the space, & layering in the soundfield is nutz. The bass integrates absolutely seamlessly, at least to me. I had really given up all my tube fetishes earlier, but this rekindled them. Can't say I'm willing to jump back in, but man those suckers sing like crazy. Those are the best tube amps I've yet heard. Forgot to ask their cost. I liked EL34s & 300Bs, but I'm on the KT88 bandwagon now.

We listened with & without the CDWG. It seems accurate to say removing the CDWG caused the soundfield to collapse, the imaging to suffer immensely, & the sound to splatter all over the place. John has what seems to be a decent amount of room treatments, but still, I beleive his normal domestic envioronment multiplied the CDWG's advantages vs. Brian's LEDE.

Man I wished the CDWG were available now. Brian could sell a ton at CES. The vinyl at Johns is just awesome, blowing away what is obviously a very accomplished digital front end. Go figure. I gots to fix my TT.

gongos · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 06:03 am »

It doesn't say much about the speakers if the soundfield collapses w/o the CD. I have a pair of 626r's and have never experienced a soundfield collapse. I'm sure most VMPS owners would be shocked to know how poorly their speakers image and maintain a soundstage.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 06:27 am »

Look, I'm reporting what I heard, that's all. Please quote me where I mentioned anything about your speakers or anyone else's besides John B's or Brian's in their soundrooms. You can't because I didn't. Grow up. I don't know if the sound could be improved at either location sans CDWG. I never tried a CDWG at home yet, but I can't wait till I do.

Your snotty retort is typical of why I quit retail. Another neurotic audiophile response to a potentialy huge improvement...what else should I do? I know, I'll complain. The reason Brian's or any other brand of speakers improve is because they either improve to entice more consumerism & trade-upism, or they must get real jobs.

Earth to gongos: it's retrofittable! Is that good enough? It's affordable, & unreal value, check w/Casler. Or does Brian have to come over, install it, give you a free amp & tune your system for free? Who cares what surprises you or any other VMPS owner making posts as ridiculous as yours (pathetic).

lifewithmusic · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 09:40 am »

Whooa -- Jim R. -- chill.

There's a valid point here; read what you wrote. There's no reason for you to attack gongos.

I'd like to understand you're prior post. I think what you might be trying to say--and it's exciting to think this might be possible--is that with the CDWG compared to without it, it sounds AS IF the sound stage of the CDWG just coliapses and sound splatters all over. Is that the comparison you are trying to make?

Please don't get your back up at my post. I'm just trying to understand.

ctviggen · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 01:12 pm »

I think Jim was merely making an observation of the difference between having and not having the CD. I could envision that the sound field would change dramatically between the two. The original speakers are more of a line source whereas the speakers with the CD I assume spread the energy more evenly.

woodsyi · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 01:15 pm »

I suppose there is a little bit of retuning with CDWG which would make the CDWG speakers sound worse without CDWG than the ones tuned without CDWG. I take Jim R. statement to be that CDWG properly tuned is a vast improvement over ones without. Perhaps a little hyperbole was used

I have the CDWG ordered for my RM40s and Big B promised Christmas delievery. I will soon find out for myself.

John B · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 04:30 pm »

My experience with the taking off of the CDWG the night of Jim's visit, was that the soundstage did not so much collapse but instead it got more diffuse, the instruments/vocals got less defined, there was a blurring of the sound; sort of like when your binoculars are out of focus on the image you're trying to bring into said focus. I've heard the RM30's pre-CDMG and they imaged fine; though the "hot" tonal character bothered me some; though like with the 626Rs I owned that could be helped by the tuning pot adjusments.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 06:30 pm »

Isn't there some sort of XO adjustment to align FR to work with the waveguides? If so, it's easy to understand that a retrofitted (or original-new) speaker would sound a lot better with the waveguides on.

In that case, the real test would be to have a retrofitted speaker to compare to a wholly original one in the same system.

Jim R. - the flip side to your rant is that we consumers have limited funds and can't chase down every product with good press. If we did, we'd all have 40 pairs of interconnects, 900 feet of speaker cables, 10x more vibration-isolation doodads than components, and no money left for speakers. How many reports have you read of GizmoX tranporting you to a new reality that you'll never return from? Skepticism is a necessary part of media-filtration.

gongos · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Dec 2005, 11:36 pm »

Quote from: RibbonSpeakers.net

Look, I'm reporting what I heard, that's all. Please quote me where I mentioned anything about your speakers or anyone else's besides John B's or Brian's in their soundrooms. You can't because I didn't. Grow up. I don't know if the sound could be improved at either location sans CDWG. I never tried a CDWG at home yet, but I can't wait till I do.

Your snotty retort is typical of why I quit retail. Another neurotic audiophile response to a potentialy huge improvement...what else should I do? I know ...

My point was your original post didn't make much sense to me. You made VMPS speakers sound like they were turds w/o the CD, which seems ridiculous based on numerous reviews and my own listening sessions. And no, I don't want anything for free, help with installation, or anyone touching my electronics for that matter. I just want to make sure I'm not being entranced by a bunch of hyperbole. As for why you're out of retail, that last post says it all.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Dec 2005, 12:00 am »

Quote from: John B

My experience with the taking off of the CDWG the night of Jim's visit, was that the soundstage did not so much collapse but instead it got more diffuse, the instruments/vocals got less defined, there was a blurring of the sound; sort of like when your binoculars are out of focus on the image you're trying to bring into said focus. I've heard the RM30's pre-CDMG and they imaged fine; though the "hot" tonal character bothered me some; though like with the 626Rs I owned that could be helped by the tuning pot adjusments.

Yes, I agree 100% w/above. Without re-reading my earlier description, above seems totally consistent with what I heard. I'll bet the CDWG returns from unsatisfied buyers will be between 0 & 5%.

I also can barely believe I'm imagining some way to fit tube amps into my system again. Don't visit Brian at CES if you don't want to be ruined for the best tubes.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Dec 2005, 12:11 am »

Everything about scepticism in general I agree with. I very much respect the idea that we'd all be broke if we bought every alleged improvement. I don't do retail, but I still don't pay retail, so that severly biases my opinions, I admit. All good points, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Look, you are going to either cough up the dough to hear these in your system, with a return priviledge, or you won't. You will be out about $20 UPS. Yes, $20 is real money, I respect that totally, it could buy a couple good CD's. But do not, I repeat, do not, spend the money equal to CDWG's on any other audio item before trying them. That is a huge mistake IMO. I'd probably prefer CDWG-equiped RM30s with a good used $1000 preamp than RM30 sans-CDWG with good seperates. It will be the best value ever IMO for your audio dollar. But I could be very wrong.

I think the idea to compare properly tuned RM30CDWG to properly tuned RM30 is the best & only valid idea I've read yet on the subject.

If the guy who designed your VMPS speakers invested the money & trouble for patents, & it is not as good as I'm saying, than he made a big mistake. Maybe he did, but I doubt it.