[Scott F.]

Hi Guys,

With all the buzz going on about the Squeezebox, I’ve decided to see what it is all about. I contacted Slim Devices and they are sending me a stock SB3 for review. In turn, I contacted Vinnie at Red Wine to see if he wanted me to do a review of his along side the stock unit. Without hesitating, he said yes (this should be pretty cool).

Since I’m a hardcore analog freak, I know exactly zip about using a computer as a server. I’ve ripped a few CDs and have them on my hard drive so I’m not a complete neophyte but I do have a question if you guys wouldn’t mind giving your opinions.

I’ve read that Gordon Rankin suggests using a dedicated Firewire external drive to store your music. This gets the music drive out of the noisy environment of your computer case. That makes sense. I don’t mind investing in an external drive if it will actually make a marked improvement in the sound and overall performance. Does anybody have any experience with both?

If I go this route, I’ve got my eye on 250gig drive. It seems pretty reasonable but I’m not up on all of the latest computer drive technology. I’d assume I need a 7200 rpm unit for fast access? Is there anything else I should look for in this drive? Is there a data transfer rate that I shouldn’t go under?

Here is my computer setup.
My server is a custom built machine. It has an ASUS A7V8X MX motherboard, an AMD 2600+ processor running at 1.9gHz +/-, it has 1 gig of memory, two hard drives (40gig C, 80gig D used as storage) and assorted firewire and USB ports. I use a new Linksys wireless network (I forget all the specs but its the current high speed one). In my listening room, I'm using a Gateway laptop connected to the network. Between me, my wife and daughter, we hit the server and shared internet connection pretty hard during the evenings. Oh, my internet connection is the DirecPC satellite dish (it does about 1.2 down, up sucks……like a Hoover).

If I do go for an external drive, I’ll compare music recorded on my D drive and the external firewire to see if I can hear the difference.

Thanks for all the help!

[JohnnyLightOn]

I don't think 7200 rpm with a fast transfer rate is necessary.  In fact, 5400 rpm would be better because it would produce less heat.  5400 with a modest  transfer rate is more than fast enough to stream music.  Unfortunately, 7200 is what's being sold, so you may have no choice.  I use an internal 300GB 7200 rpm Maxtor (with a second external 300GB for backup) for my Squeezebox.  If you're buying online and don't have a vendor you like, newegg.com is good.  Buy the drive that's the cheapest with the best customer reviews.

The Squeezebox uses the S/PDIF interface, and with this interface it supposedly shouldn't matter whether you have an internal or external hard drive.  Your Squeezebox will probably be far away from the computer, and I have read multiple places that what's sent down the CAT5 cable from the computer to the Squeezebox isn't affected by internal computer noise.  However, I am not a technical expert, so maybe others can confirm this.

I suggest you rip your CDs using EAC if you aren't already.  It's a free program.  Here's one page of setup instructions: http://users.pandora.be/satcp/eac-qs-en.htm.  Here's another: http://pages.cthome.net/homepage/eac/setup.htm.  It seems complicated at first, but if you go step-by-step, you'll be up-and-running in no time.  I rip to FLAC, but you can use any lossless format.  Whatever you do, don't use MP3s if you're going to gauge audio quality.

Looking forward to the results of your comparo!

[Music Machine]

Your computer is perfectly adequate as a music server for Squeezebox.  If you need more drive space get whatever you feel like.  Hard disk speed is a non issue for streaming music.  Because the Squeeze connects via Ethernet (wired or wireless) it will not matter if the drive is internal, external, usb, firewire, ATA, SATA, SCSI, or anything else you can find.  The music stream will be buffered and clocked out on the Squeeze. No worries.

What is important is how you rip cds to the drive.  If you use a secure ripping program and stick with a lossless format it will be perfection.

WARNING: You might not be able to go back to those crappy jewel cases after you experience a network music player.

Regards,
Music Machine

[Papajin]

I’ve read that Gordon Rankin suggests using a dedicated Firewire external drive to store your music. This gets the music drive out of the noisy environment of your computer case. That makes sense. I don’t mind investing in an external drive if it will actually make a marked improvement in the sound and overall performance. Does anybody have any experience with both?

If you were using a soundcard to produce your audio, I could see this recommendation possibly being a good idea, but not with an SB.  The SB in no way attaches directly to your server machine, so hard drive noise, physical or electrical, will not effect it.

If I go this route, I’ve got my eye on 250gig drive. It seems pretty reasonable but I’m not up on all of the latest computer drive technology. I’d assume I need a 7200 rpm unit for fast access? Is there anything else I should look for in this drive? Is there a data transfer rate that I shouldn’t go under?

Just about any modern drive should do the job.  All the larger hard drives out there are more than fast enough for music serving duty.  My only suggestion would be that you may want to invest in an identical pair of drives for a mirrored raid array if you want to have a live backup of all your audio on standby at all times.  An alternate means of backup (and still probably good idea anyway) would be to burn everything to DVD's for archival purposes.  Reripping an entire CD collection could be painful...

[jakepunk]

All good advice.  I mirror my two 250GB drives using RAID 1.  I like 5400 rpm drives because they generate less noise and heat.  Maxtor is one of the only vendors that sells 5400 rpm large capacity IDE drives these days.  300 CDs ripped in FLAC format is approximately 100 GB on disk.

[JohnnyLightOn]

FWIW, I don't think mirroring two drives is necessarily the best way to have a backup.  If for some reason the data on the main drive got corrupted, the mirror drive would copy that corrupted data.  Backing up an entire drive to a second drive  once a week, and/or after you've finished ripping your CD collection, then disconnecting the backup drive and storing it offsite seems like a better method to me.

[TomS]

I'm thinking of trying the same SB3 approach and looked at the RWA mods.  I was wondering how this would compare to using the SB3 direct to various decent external DACs like P3a, Hagtech, Benchmark DAC1, etc.

Another option (w/o SB3) is something like Gordon Rankin's Wavelength Brick USB DAC that bypasses SPDIF completely and has a simple tube output stage.  Has anyone tried this or are there others doing it a little cheaper (it's $1750) ?

[Scott F.]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I do plan on trying the SBs with an external DAC for curiosities sake. I'll be using a modified CAL DAC.

[Papajin]

FWIW, I don't think mirroring two drives is necessarily the best way to have a backup.  If for some reason the data on the main drive got corrupted, the mirror drive would copy that corrupted data.  Backing up an entire drive to a second drive  once a week, and/or after you've finished ripping your CD collection, then disconnecting the backup drive and storing it offsite seems like a better method to me.

It depends on how the corruption occurs.  A mirrored drive isn't truly like a mirror.  Seperate writes are sent to both drives, and the data is individually written to each drive.  If data on one of the drives starts to become corrupt due to hardware failure, the 2nd drive won't duplicate the corruption since the data was already written before the corruption occurred.  In this case, the drive that _isn't_ failing can be moved over to be used while another mirror drive could be purchased to replace the failing drive.  Now if you somehow manage to write new data in a corrupted fashion, then yes there's a good chance the data would be written to the mirror the same way, but this is a pretty unlikely scenario.  You could still however accidentally delete or modify something, and lose it from both drives.

Please note however, that I did also recommend backing up to DVD in my initial message in addition to the mirror.  Redundancy is never bad.  Consider a mirror more of a hassle reducer in event of a hardware failure than a backup.

[Scott F.]

News Flash!!!!

Wayne from Bolder Cable has tossed his hat in the ring too   Looks like we'll have three units for the review. Waynes design looks pretty interesting too. He uses Bybees and Sonicaps in his mods.

It should make for a pretty interesting review up at EnjoyTheMusic.com

[woodsyi]

Scott,

I am looking forward to reading your review.  I am running a stock SB2 through my DAC (Northstar 192).  I am using a vintage lab grade HP power supply in lieu of the stock switcher.  As a transport it compares with mine (Northstar 192) which has a direct upsampling to 192 via I2S cable.  I am so impressed with the SB2 that I ordered a second one to run in my bedroom set up that I am putting together.  I am thinking of sending it to Wayne to get his digital mod with silver Bybee on digital out and his power supply.  So, this would be good information.  The beauty is that I just rip all my CDs to one location and access the "Jukebox" from different locations! I won't have to get out my bed to change CD's.

[JohnnyLightOn]

It depends on how the corruption occurs...If data on one of the drives starts to become corrupt due to hardware failure, the 2nd drive won't duplicate the corruption since the data was already written before the corruption occurred.

I was thinking more of a virus or malware, or an accidental mass deletion.  IMO a mirrored disk is intended for file servers in business situations, or for professionals such as video editors who need this redundancy because they can't afford to lose time in the event of a problem.  Mirrored arrays in home systems don't really offer protection against anything but hardware failure, and can propagate software-based corruption.  The best solution for music server backup is to have an external drive of the same size, back up once every few days while you're ripping your collection, then once your collection is fully ripped, store it offsite.

I did read your suggestion about DVD backup and agree that this is completely worthwhile.

[zybar]

... The best solution for music server backup is to have an external drive of the same size, back up once every few days while you're ripping your collection, then once your collection is fully ripped, store it offsite.

I did read your suggestion about DVD backup and agree that this is completely worthwhile.

What you propose is a very expensive option if you have a large collection.  I am in the process of still ripping my 1000+ cd collection and when I am done it will take multiple drives of 300GB in order to store them.  Getting external disks of this size is very expensive (external drive is about triple the cost of the internal drive) and when you add it up, you are better off going with a storage solution that uses internal drives in either a software or hardware RAID config.

George

[BillyM]

...coming from someone who has lost his music collection once due to hardware failure *slaps maxtor quality control*, GO FOR THE MIRRORING.

I could hit myself for all the hours its taking me to re-rip, verify, compress, verify, transfer, verify...  All for what?  To save a couple hundred bucks?

...not worth it man, and believe me when I say that I WONT make that mistake again.  Mirror it "off the bat".

--BillyM

[JohnnyLightOn]

Actually, external drives cost the same as internal drives plus $25-40 each.  You buy the internal drive and a case, and put it in yourself.  The case has a power supply, an IDE to USB 2.0 or Firewire interface, and sometimes a small fan.  (For SATA disks, there is no interface, it just passes the SATA connector through.)  The whole assembly process takes less than five minutes.  Most computer people use this method.

For someone who has multiple 300GB drives b/c of a huge music collection, then the best backup solution is a good tape drive, with at least two copies of the tapes and one set stored offsite.

     Let me repeat, with a little more emphasis: MIRRORING IS NOT FOR BACKUP!!!  It's redundancy to keep a system up in case of hardware failure.   Ask anyone who works in network admin.  If you think mirroring is a secure backup method, you are just fooling yourself.  At the very least, if you cannot see why this is, think of this...how are you going to store a copy offsite with a mirrored disk?  Do you really want to spend months ripping a whole CD collection and then leave the whole shebang powered up in a single location?  What if you have a fire?  Flood?  Theft?

[Music Machine]

JohnnyLightOn is right, BUT, very few individuals will have offsite backups.  Most will not have onsite backups.  Because that is true, the most common cause of data loss is hard drive failure.  A mirror solves that problem.  My music is mirrored on raid.  My only backup is the CDs in the closet.  Easy. Good nuff.

WOW a three way shoot out!  This will be fun.  Looking forward to it.  What's the time frame. December? January?

Regards

[Scott F.]

WOW a three way shoot out!  This will be fun.  Looking forward to it.  What's the time frame. December? January?

Guessing, the formal review will probably hit in the January or February issue. It will be in my Joe Audiophile column which shows up under the Viewpoint section of ETM.

I'm really looking forward to hearing each of these. The stock unit is plenty affordable and the modded units aren't very expensive either. I've got really high hopes for the sound.

[Carlman]

In reference to backups, just thought I'd add that all my cd's are backed up to DVD (Each DVD holds about 10 albums in .flac).  So, if I lose everything, I still have the music.  Tim/Tirade did this for me and I'm doing the same going forward with new cd's.  It's not an offsite but so be it.... neither are my cd's.

-C

[jermmd]

My music is backed up by being available on my friends and family's music servers. We have similar collections and if I lose my hard drive I will simply copy my friends hard drive. This probably represents some type of copyright infringement but I'm not going to burn 1000 CDs more than once. I still have all my CD's (boxed up and stored in the basement) but I don't plan on taking them out again.

[jcrane]

Scott,
This is Jamie from the GAS circle.
If you need any help let me know, I can find my way around a computer pretty well and have networking training to boot.
I also use a WD 160GB external drive to store my ripped CDs. I use EAC to rip via LAME to 320 kbs CBR so they are pretty good quality and I have a varied collection of music so this could save you some time.
I would be willing to loan this to you for your review if you would like.
Just let me know.

Jamie