The VMPS Patent, Parts I, II, III, IV

James Romeyn · « **Reply #180 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 06:55 am »

I have not visited for some time. I literally could not believe someone brought up the RM1 specs from about 4 years ago.

I like Scotty very much. He has helped me achieve better sound. But it is crystal clear to me he has some preconcieved notions & proclivities about speaker design that are 180 degrees contrary to BC's, & neither is about to change. That is fine, no problem.

The problem is that I believe Scotty knows this already, & yet he chooses to post & highlite these differences. This is where the fault lies. Nothing good can come of it becuase all these differences are so old & so well established that they are IMO unwelcome & a total waste of everyone's time.

When you are invited to someone's house for a meal (the public VMPS forum here), you don't volunteer an unsolicited & unwelcome comment that you would have spiced the meal differently. Especially when you are a novice cook who has never entered a meal into any competition, & you are visiting a master chef who has been making people happy with his meals for oh, about three decades.

My 2c. Scotty forgive me, nothing personl, just my opinion.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #181 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 07:01 am »

Quote from: ehider

Hmmm,

The measurements that I posted show the exact issues that from a speakers comb filtering due to crossover design choices. These anomolies are still present in the speaker we have been talking about and are EXTREMELY similar in terms of using the graphs I presented to EDUCATE AudioCircle readers. They are NOT there to slam VMPS or talk badly the design decisions itself. Hell, I never even offered up any opinions to what comb filtering issues mean to me personally in a speaker designer's playbook :i ...

Life is tough & unfair then you die. This is the VMPS forum & this is the patent thread. If someone, as you write, asks you personally a question, answer them directly via email or whatever. This is not the Master ehider sets the record straight & answers all VMPS questions forum. Do an inquiry with the AC owner. Maybe you can have your own space. John was way too easy on you, but that's John's way, mr. nice guy, thank goodness.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #182 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 07:21 am »

The day there there is a consensus of audiophiles found agreeing on one particular set of universal testing procedures for all of the many types of loudspeakers & the rooms they exist in, is the day that all discussion on the subject of good sound ceases. This is what the hobby & science is about. It's about different ears & different rooms & different equipment & different opinions of what constitutes good sound. Rejoice in it. It makes the hobby fun & exciting.

Personally, I have heard speakers with high xo slopes that I liked to listen to very much. The problem is that I found I did not like to listen to them for as long as Brian's & other designers' lower slopes.

My 2c.

audiochef · « **Reply #183 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 07:55 am »

Jim R,

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sure most of us here , back your statements very strongly. You showed real class.

Thank you.

And Congradulations Brian ! Your a genious !

CornellAlum · « **Reply #184 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 10:32 am »

rblnr · « **Reply #185 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 01:29 pm »

Whatever problems higher order crossovers might solve, I know experientially that speakers w/them either don't sound right to me from moment one, or don't wear well over time (I've owned some highly regarded ones). This is something I've come to understand about speakers, and myself, over the last twenty years.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #186 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 02:55 pm »

First order networks sound more natural to me than higher order slopes, which is the main reason I use them.

Off axis problems have been solved by the new technology. I am reconfiguring my measurement bed for wider range use and the results should be up shortly. You will see improvements in linearity from the "new tech" as well.

Jose R. · « **Reply #187 on:** 25 Oct 2005, 04:38 pm »

Hi Brian

I have been following this thread with much interest and I am looking forward to the release of the mod for my RM30C's.
Will it be necessary to remove the foam around the tweeter in order to fit the board?
We anxiously await the details of costs, availability etc.

Regards

Jose

clarkjohnsen · « **Reply #188 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 06:40 pm »

Folks, I have just given up and joined another damn audio board -- viz. this one -- because of the following statement from Mr. Casler:

"I know recently John Atkinson (Stereophile) posted some attrocious measurements of the Cyberlight cables which I have heard several times, and find among some of the best cables out there. In fact, the accompanying Fremer review was 'glowing', but the measurements basically told everyone they were 'unlistenable'.

"Go Figure."

No can do, but Mr. Casler's statement is exactly correct: These are very wonderful cables and I for one cannot hear the faults that the measurements seem to reveal. On the other hand, I have cables that measure extremely well but I can't listen to them.

I don't know what that review did to their sales (it could go either way, or more likely nowhere), but I do know this: With any given high-end product category, people who demand measurements generally don't buy; those who listen, do.

I'll also take this opportunity to confirm that first-order (and nearby) crossovers almost always sound better. Without them a loudspeaker cannot reveal that crucial aspect of correct music reproduction, Absolute Polarity.

John B · « **Reply #189 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 06:48 pm »

Quote

Folks, I have just given up and joined another damn audio board -- viz. this one -- because of the following statement from Mr. Casler:

Finally got tired of being slammed by the Inmates hey

Welcome aboard another damn audio board

John Casler · « **Reply #190 on:** 27 Oct 2005, 07:25 pm »

Quote from: clarkjohnsen

Folks, I have just given up and joined another damn audio board -- viz. this one -- because of the following statement from Mr. Casler:

"I know recently John Atkinson (Stereophile) posted some attrocious measurements of the Cyberlight cables which I have heard several times, and find among some of the best cables out there. In fact, the accompanying Fremer review was 'glowing', but the measurements basically told everyone they were 'unlistenable'.

"Go Figure."

No can do, but Mr. Casler's s ...

Hi Clark,

Welcome to AC and a special welcome to the VMPS Circle.

As you will find out "never a dull moment" here, but all is fun.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #191 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 07:28 am »

Visiting B’s room to hear what’s new is a semi-religious affair. You are beckoned there after a certain amount of time lapses to get re-acquainted with a purity of sound that you usually don’t come across anywhere else. Usually it is tuned razor sharp, running circles around almost every other reproduced sound I’ve heard. On rare occasion a new component or upgrade has just been tossed in the ring & it’s not exactly my perfect cup of tea. Today what I heard (a direct A-B with & without the CDWG, or whatever it’s called) revealed what I personally believe may be the single biggest high-end advance ever. For once, John C. may have understated the improvement (forget that, he probably got it spot on).

Changes since my last visit a few months ago: There’s a huge 70” LCD placed against the front wall between the speakers, but it is heavily damped with Sonex & a blanket in front of it. I definitely had some size-envy, as all I’ve got is little 53” Elite. I wonder what he’s going to do for a DD-processor. One thing is for sure, with the CDWG attached to any of his ribbons in front, he will need no stinking center speaker…but I’m jumping too far ahead. He had the speakers out into the room more than before, to clear the TV. They were also a bit farther from the sidewalls. I think this speaker location is an overall improvement over his earlier location deeper into the corners.

The first cut I heard is “No Matter What They Tell Us” from the Hugh Grant-Julia Roberts movie Notting Hill. This is a mediocre recording, but the music & the performance is, well, it’s so…romantic. There was good emotion in the singer’s voice, & it just had an incredibly light, airy, flow throughout. This is nuts, I know, but I actually thought of hugging B for making it sound so good. To be honest, playing this was a whim, as I had only heard it in the car prior to that, & really had no high-end reference for it. My first question was to insure the RM30M w/6.5MW were the only speakers, because the bass was so much better than my memory that I thought a sub might be plugged in.

Next up was The Fairfield Four, a great southern gospel acapella quartet, excellent recording & music. The focus, detail, & imaging were super, better than ever before. I was startled at the leap in sound over any other time I’d heard that recording, & it’s a great reference recording with which I am familiar. There’s a huge crescendo at the end of one cut that can easily sound glaring depending on system variables. Not only was the glare totally absent, it just sung in a way I’d not previously experienced.

Next up was Hugh Bryant Live from France. A mutual friend introduced us to it. It’s a solo grand upright (pretty sure), played by a good swing-jazz-blues guy. The small venue recording is great, in spite of the fact that the master was an audio cassette! Normal cassette speed is 1-7/8, yet no apparent audible wow & flutter. How’s that possible? I’m normally sensitive to W&F, one of the reasons I generally dislike belt drive turntables. Was it a Nagra, some kind of high-speed cassette, or what…? Whatever it is, it’s killer. I heard it on the absolutely huge Roger West Soundlab ‘stats at CES a few years ago (RMX premier), with Blowtorch preamp, custom digital front end, & the Curl-Parasound monos. Though I liked it better on the VMPS ribbons overall, there was always something in the way of detail, transparency, cohesiveness, & musicality that I admired in the ‘stats. But no more! The pleasurable effects of the ‘stats were here, but maybe even more so. The naturalness & musicality of the image, utterly seamless cohesion under all dynamic conditions, imaging that never changed regardless of dynamics, see-through quality, it was all there, with the normal VMPS dynamic qualities, in a way I’d not imagined was possible. Around this time I started involuntarily uttering the word “uncanny”.

Next is Tchaikovsky’s Symphony 4 last movement, huge orchestra, a great recording. I am very familiar with it, previously one of Brian’s references (he’s probably burned out on it). I was shocked at the delineation of the bass drum, double-basses & cellos, the ability to pick them out, yet they blended perfectly with the rest of the instruments. And the same was true in fact for all the instruments. Again, the natural size & location of each instrumental section, the perfect ability to hear each musical line while blending all together seamlessly, I could go on with superlatives. Every area of audiophile performance was almost supernaturally good.

At that time or with the next cut (one of Brian’s insanely good & well recorded female jazz cuts), we A-B’d the CDWG on & off. On at least one particular cut, with the CDWG was quite good, without the CDWG was approaching un-listenable. Generally the CDWG improved the performance to an extent that I believe it is the single greatest high-end invention I ever personally experienced. I believe, when the cosmetics are finished & it is in production, it is certainly going to send the high-end on its ear. I predict it could become the single most talked about high-end invention in at least the past decade. B says & from examining it I agree, it will look exactly like your speakers look now with the grills attached, & would be literally impossible to tell apart without touching it. This is one grill you would never for an instant (except to demonstrate) want to detach from your speakers.

Brian: Can it be made to fit on the RMX? It occurred to me the RMX’ pivoting tweeter may prevent application of the CDWG on that model. Does the CDWG not need all the front-firing drivers to be fixed?

From what I heard, I think one of this thing’s little marvels is that it may make center speakers obsolete. I just can not imagine a center speaker improving matters at all. I have been converting stereo signals into DPL IIx for some time (2.0>4.1). I carefully tested with & without center speakers, including the 626R Center, then the LRC, & finally the RM30C Horizontal. I am now sold on using no center, for video & music. The only problem is that it might dampen center speaker sales for the inventor, but making huge gobs of money has never been the tireless VMPS speaker designer’s number one goal anyway.

Brian gave me a lay person’s explanation of the mechanics of his CDWG. Its exquisite & obvious simplicity started to seep in. It occurred to me, & I mentioned to Brian, how strange it was that no one thought of it before. It was interesting to hear his response that people may have thought about it, but if they did they chose to ignore it. I don’t think they will be ignoring it after production hits the street & they get a chance to experience it. Hats off to Brian, again!

RGordonpf · « **Reply #192 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 03:46 pm »

Hi Clark,

Welcome aboard. I agree about the cyberlights. I am running a 10m pair of Cyberlights from my preamp to amps. They sound great. In comparison to the 3m pair of Audio Purist Venustas that I used previously (prior to moving my equipment around) the sound quality was similar. This weekend I get to experiment with a pair of 2m Cyberlights. Should be fun.

Have you had fun playing with the Herron preamp with absolute polarity on the remote?

Missed you at RMAF. The beer was great.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #193 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 04:13 pm »

CDWG=Constant Directivity Wave Guide

Jim's visit was my first opportunity to A/B the effect of the wave guide with another listener present. From his report I would say I am not deluding myself as to the wave guide's benefits. Indeed, I may have understated the improvement.

I understand the scepticism any new invention faces. High End audio even at its highest level is vanity-driven. If it's NIH (Not Invented Here) you can be sure the likes of Sony/Philips will reject it--as they did initially Dolby C noise reduction. I don't expect Constant Directivity to become as wildly popular as Dolby C, not do I expect competitors to line up for a franchise. Fine with me. But in a very short time, non-CD speakers will become much less popular, other manufacturers will come up with their own CD schemes, and CD will find general acceptance as a necessary and highly prized design goal in its own right.

sharper · « **Reply #194 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 05:55 pm »

Hey Clark,

Nice to see you on the forum. I bought my first pair of VMPS speakers from you back in 1988. What a listening room you had. Hearing the Tower II/R's and the beer afterwards at Jimbo's really made it worth the trip from Montreal to Boston.

Scott Harper

ScottMayo · « **Reply #195 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 06:11 pm »

Quote from: sharper

Hey Clark,

Nice to see you on the forum. I bought my first pair of VMPS speakers from you back in 1988. What a listening room you had. Hearing the Tower II/R's and the beer afterwards at Jimbo's really made it worth the trip from Montreal to Boston.

Scott Harper

clarkjohnsen's in Boston?

Hey Clark, come visit. Listen to my RM/x setup -- and bring some cables. I'm not a believer in cable magic and I'd love to hear evidence from the other side.

James Romeyn · « **Reply #196 on:** 28 Oct 2005, 10:31 pm »

Hurry before you end up on page 13....

Some additions to my last email, so you know what the Soundlabs required to sound as good as they did at CES: each speaker is about 7'x5'x several inches (HWD). They were sited about the middle of the hotel room, leaving just enough space for one huge & very hot running amp in front of each speaker, one sofa for listeners, & Crump & the electronics at the back of the room.

Also, the bass on the CDWG-equipped RM30M was far better than I've ever heard before. My earlier opinion was that that model had adequate bass. The CDWG seemed to improve performance so much in quantity & quality that I had to confirm there was no sub hooked up. Why? Check for yourself. Disconnect the woofers from your biampable speakers (be careful with tubes, which could be damaged when not provided a proper impedance load at all frequencies). Play any old music with bass instruments. You may be surprised at the overtone content up into even the tweeter, both its quantity & extension.

Lastly, a point that Marbles brought up in a different VMPS thread. He inquired why uniform 180-degree dispersion might be better than the limited dispersion he preferred of his ribbons vs. cones/domes. I think the reason can be explained like this. Yes, the untreated ribbon may have less overall dispersion vs. a cone/dome, & this may be experienced as an improvement (I concur here wholeheartedly, the ribbons image better in my room vs. any cone/dome sampled). But in both the case of the non-CDWG-equipped VMPS ribbon & your average cone/dome, the polar response is frequency dependent & non-linear.

In the case of the CDWG-equipped VMPS ribbons, you have a virtually uniform & linear 180-degree polar response from about 280 Hz & up. And that may be the magic. Both the non-CDWG-equipped VMPS speaker & your average cone/dome have varying degrees of ragged polar response, not generally a good thing. The CDWG-equipped VMPS ribbon has linear & even polar response (a good thing as Martha says). Even though the non-CDWG-equipped VMPS ribbon has less overall polar output, I'd imagine at some frequencies above 280 Hz it does have 180-degree dispersion.

I used B's chair on wheels to roll around different locations. It was amazing how little the sound changed. Yes, the timbre changed as I approached the side walls, but the image, staging & overall musical integrity remained intact far more than was expected. Even the stand-up sit down test was improved. B explains that the device squeezes the signal over the entire length of the slot, making for similar midrange & tweeter output over it's height.

I am totally sold on this technology. Too bad there's none for sale. Since I returned home to listen I can't say I'm as happy about the sound as before. In comparison it sounds splashy & glaring, not really bad, but my aural memory lingers of the CDWG's effect. For some time up till now, after visiting Brian's & returning home I was satisfied & had no desire to upgrade anything. I can't believe this contraption is totally passive, avoiding the electrical signal chain completely. Amazing. This invention really seems to make one huge final leap over the other side to get you more fully involved with & immersed in the music than ever before possible. Am I blocking, again?

James Romeyn · « **Reply #197 on:** 29 Oct 2005, 05:43 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

The results of imposing the waveguide over an RM 30 or RM 40, my first test subjects, were spectacular. ...

I doubt "exciting to see" was the intended meaning above. Common usage such as above will probably force a change in the definition to include non-visual descriptions.

ScottMayo · « **Reply #198 on:** 29 Oct 2005, 06:29 pm »

Quote from: ScottMayo

Hey Clark, come visit. Listen to my RM/x setup -- and bring some cables. I'm not a believer in cable magic and I'd love to hear evidence from the other side.

Looks like this might, in fact, happen. Clark's planning to stop by next weekend, with a bunch of tweaks in tow, and to give the RM/x a listen. (GEE, if ONLY I could have a PROTOTYPE CD WAVEGUIDE here at that point.)

On the face of it, this meeting should be a complete train wreck.

He's into tweaks. I'm... well, some of you know where I stand on certain tweaks. But he appreciates VMPS, and so do I. And he seems eeriely certain he can convince me of a whole 'nother viewpoint. He's even going to bring an Intelligent Chip. My very favorite tweak!

Anyone going to be in my area next weekend? You may never see two more oppositely charged individuals, grooving to the same pair of speakers. It'll be worth the price of admission.

And who knows what will happen when he starts painting the CDs and lifting the cables?

So, open house at my place next weekend - we'll try to get dates and times firmed up. All invited to bring music, tweaks and ears. Let's find out what's what!

John Casler · « **Reply #199 on:** 29 Oct 2005, 06:34 pm »

Quote from: ScottMayo

Looks like this might, in fact, happen. Clark's planning to stop by next weekend, with a bunch of tweaks in tow, and to give the RM/x a listen. (GEE, if ONLY I could have a PROTOTYPE CD WAVEGUIDE here at that point.)

On the face of it, this meeting should be a complete train wreck. He's into tweaks. I'm... well, some of you know where I stand on certain tweaks. But he appreciates VMPS, and so do I. And he seems eeriely certain he can convince me of a whole 'nother viewpoint. He's even going to br ...

Look out, you may become a "Born Again" TWEAKER!!