The VMPS Patent, Parts I, II, III, IV

miklorsmith · « **Reply #100 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:01 pm »

Are you able to release information regarding timing of availability and cost? I'm sure it's great and I'll probably buy it, but it doesn't look like much.

dwk · « **Reply #101 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:08 pm »

Well, to me it looks like this is more properly referred to as a 'diffraction slot' rather than a 'waveguide'. A 'waveguide' as commonly used and certainly as Geddes originally intended (he coined the term AFAIK) implies a design angle less than 180 degrees. I guess it's clear why you've been distancing yourself from the 'controlled directivity' term, as this doesn't attempt to achieve that.

Since patents depend on specific details, I can see how there is room for a patentable claim here, but the basic mechanism is used in many pro-sound horns to achieve broad horizontal dispersion (obviously coupled to compression drivers in those cases).

Florian · « **Reply #102 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:09 pm »

Well i dont want to sound negative, but this doesnt really seem to be anything special. Are you trying to create a narrow linesource?

-Flo

PS: Could someone try to explain this to me in "easy" words. Translating this all into german kinda looses structure of it.

John Casler · « **Reply #103 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:11 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith

Are you able to release information regarding timing of availability and cost? I'm sure it's great and I'll probably buy it, but it doesn't look like much.

That's why I posted that these are Prototype pics and do not represent the "cosmetics" of the final production models, which will likely be finished in veneer, cloth, or glossy paint.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #104 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:21 pm »

Please read what I've written carefully. This is NOT a horn. CD horns are not shaped like this. It is not a diffraction lens. Mr. Geddes does not have an exclusive on the term "waveguide"; I find the term in 50 year old texts on radio. It IS a big deal and something special. It means I have made a speaker with an effective width of 2/3" that exhibits Constant Directivity with frequency. There is a large audible benefit from the design.

As reaction from the beta-testers, owners and critics come in, it is likely to appear here. I probably will not contribute much more to the discussion.

Florian · « **Reply #105 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:24 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

Please read what I've written carefully. This is NOT a horn. CD horns are not shaped like this. It is not a diffraction lens. Mr. Geddes does not have an exclusive on the term "waveguide"; I find the term in 50 year old texts on radio. It IS a big deal and something special. It means I have made a speaker with an effective width of 2/3" that exhibits Constant Directivity with frequency. There is a large audible benefit from the design.

As reaction from the beta-testers, owners and critics come i ...

I apologize if you think i called it something not special, it was not ment in a negative way. Could you please tell me how much this would cost me for my RM30's incl. the shipping to my home?

I am really interested in trying it out. Does it also improve the bass?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #106 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:27 pm »

Actually I wasn't referring to the finish quality, but the mechanics. A - The simplest solution is best; B - Sometimes one must trapse the world to find that simplest solution, but C - it looks like a hole in a board.

I imagine the patent is complicated and refers not to the object itself as much as what the object is doing to moderate radiated signal.

IF this is as great as promised, it is quite a miraculous solution. It looks simple, can't be that expensive, and can be retrofit. It could meet ALL the fantastic ideals that any of us might have about the Final Tally.

But, it has been cast as "THE GREATEST THING EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND". I am sure that raising expectations so high will have many observers commenting "that's it?"

I'm pullin' for ya and I'd like nothing more than a great, cheap upgrade for my 626's. Bring 'em on!

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #107 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:30 pm »

That was John Casler's reaction to the CD waveguide, when he heard it on his RM 30's. He was not referring to the greatest improvement in loudspeakers in the history of mankind, just in the history of VMPS. It is a simple solution but again, I'm not showing all of it. It works as advertised and is quite wonderful. It will not be extremely expensive to implement or to retrofit.

Marbles · « **Reply #108 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:38 pm »

Quote from: klh

Am I a moron, or are you going to do more than put a baffle in front of your loudspeakers?

I don't think the two things mentioned are mutually exclusive

Now I see why BC was trying to stretch out the story until finished "waveguides" were available for the photo's....Thanks for posting these (quite rough looking) prototypes.

John Casler · « **Reply #109 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:48 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

That was John Casler's reaction to the CD waveguide, when he heard it on his RM 30's. He was not referring to the greatest improvement in loudspeakers in the history of mankind, just in the history of VMPS. It is a simple solution but again, I'm not showing all of it. It works as advertised and is quite wonderful. It will not be extremely expensive to implement or to retrofit.

Quite true. I posted to the VMPS circle that it was the greatest Development Ever. (meaning of course for VMPS)

Plus I said it (CD) would likely be a key goal of most designers, which I beleive it is.

Ask Bob from SP how much development went into "his" wave guide for his SP line, while we look at it and say it is simply a concave hollow with a driver mounted in the bottom.

Let me assure you it took him months (if not years) of work and development to perfect.

Don't let the "rough" prototypes fool you, the dimensions need to be precise and several more prototypes must be tested to reach the production stage.

In fact the prototypes I have look nothing like the ones in the photos

Not sure what the actual finished product will look like, especially for the RM/x.

These photos are simply to display the rough technology and the potential

NealH · « **Reply #110 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 11:59 pm »

How does this addtition affect the dispersion characteristic? Does this make the speaker in effect a 60 degree radiator (horizontal plane), a 75 degree, etc., ?

Also, does it affect the vertical dispersion at all?

Lastly, are there baffle step anomalies to be dealt with?

Sorry if these are dumb questions, I am not a speaker expert. Just curious because I don't generally like limited dispersion speakers. I rememberthat with some speakers like the Eminent Tech LFT-VIII once I moved a foot or two from the listening positioning things went south in a hurry.

klh · « **Reply #111 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 12:24 am »

Hey Marbles... why is it that you are called by that name?

Marbles · « **Reply #112 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 12:28 am »

Quote from: klh

Hey Marbles... why is it that you are called by that name?

At one time I was crazy enough to have 14 speakers carved from solid blocks of marble..now I'm down to just 9...

Back to the topic...I'm still confused...do these just change the dispersion charectoristics and the HF response? Will you be changing any of the tweeter pots on new speakers or change the XO's to account for the new FR's? Will these waveguides be options on new speakers or will they be on all new speakers?

Thanks

jgubman · « **Reply #113 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 01:24 am »

Brian/John,

congratulations, can't wait to hear these. Will there be CD device for the LRC speaker or does the speaker's configuration preclude it?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #114 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 01:48 am »

This doesn't look like a new or patentable concept to me. Prior art exists from B&G in the design principle used in the Neo3PDR
see link http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-716s.pdf and in the Neo8PDR used by GR Research http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=21017
Hi-Vi Research also uses this principle in its line of isodynamic planar magnetic tweeters http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=136#planar
Perhaps more to the point the goal of constant directivity can be realized in designs like the VMPS speakers by crossing over
to a tweeter before the midrange panel becomes directional in the horizontal plane at about 5500Hz. If the drivers were crossed over at 3500Hz their HF directionality problems would be solved and constant directivity would be obtained.
Scotty

Aether Audio · « **Reply #115 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 01:54 am »

Guys,

Quote

Ask Bob from SP how much development went into "his" wave guide for his SP line, while we look at it and say it is simply a concave hollow with a driver mounted in the bottom.

Let me assure you it took him months (if not years) of work and development to perfect.

Thanks John - how right you are. It's rather odd I supose for one manufacturer to be heralding the benefits being claimed by a competing manufacturer, but I applaud this new development for VMPS.

The technical issues intrigue me as I am a bit curious about the details of true CD performance being possible from such a shallow device. Then again, depending on radiation angle (dispersion), this may very well be possible. Undoubtedly it is as Brian would not stake his reputation on "snake oil." Still, I'm curious...but then I usually am.

And I am not a bit surprised at this development. In fact, I am surprised that not virtually all speakers are built with some form of waveguide. From a more self-serving standpoint, this development does nothing but further my original assertations - not to mention further validating SP Technology's designs.

Quote

"No other conventional technology can compete with the advantages offered by a properly designed waveguide."

So there. Now Brian is telling you the same thing.

Believe or be cast into audio hell!!!

Only thing is, now we have even more competition. That's OK, you guys are the winners in the end. And since we use a different approach, our products will still sound different. Different is good. Now "different" is even better too.

Good job VMPS.

-Bob

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #116 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 01:55 am »

The design goals of the invention cannot be achieved by the means you describe. The Neo 8 panel lacks the HF extension for their design to be CD to 20kHz. At best the techique offers somewhat enhanced dispersion.

My invention is novel and patentable.

Marbles · « **Reply #117 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 01:55 am »

As long as I have questions, I might as well ask them.

Why the need to have this go over the woofers? Is it to horn load them? Is it for aesthetics?

Does the back of the waveguide reflect that sound back to the ribbon, guide it to the slot, obsorb the wave, diffuse it, or some combination? How does this impact the sound instead of just using a long thin ribbon or several shorter ribbons in the first place?

I hope you can answer these in a non technical way so it doesn't jepordize your patent filing.

Thanks

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #118 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 01:56 am »

The design goals of the invention cannot be achieved by the means you describe. The Neo 8 panel lacks the HF extension for their design to be CD to 20kHz. At best the technique offers somewhat enhanced dispersion.

My invention is both novel and patentable.

warnerwh · « **Reply #119 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 02:47 am »

What a wonderful solution. Although my brain hasn't thoroughly digested how this waveguide works I've no doubt it's function and benefits are as claimed. I thought that the sound in my room with my RM 40's has been about as good as modern technology allows. It would help to get more feedback from users. I'll take a pair of the prototypes