Squeezebox 2 listening session

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Wayne1

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« on: 14 Aug 2005, 11:59 pm »
I spent a very pleasant afternoon over at mgalusha's listening to some gerat music on his system. Mike has recently changed a few things. He replaced his Odyssey Extreme Monos with a pair of amps from Dan Banquer. His Vandersteens have been moved out and he now has a pair of Meadowlark Blue Heron 2s. His new gear is still breaking in but was sounding very nice.

Mike received a Squeezebox 2 earlier in the week. He had let it play in his system for a few days and was liking it quite a bit. I got in touch with him to see if I could bring over my modded version of the SB2 and a new power supply to see what differences we might be able to hear.


We started listening to Mike's system with the stock SB2 and power supply connected to his preamp. It was sounding very nice but the high end was a bit hot. Mike thought it was because the tweeters were only about a week old.

We put in the linear power supply in place of the switcher and the sound changed. The harsh, hot high end was gone. Bass extended and had more body. We put the stock supply back and it became almost unlistenable after hearing the other PS.

After listening to a few more tracks we installed the modded SB2. There was another large difference. The music became smoother, more analog sounding. We compared a CD through his modded Denon 2900 to a ripped file through the modded SB2 and we both preferred the sound of the SB2.

The biggest revelation came when Mike decided to to hook the modded SB2 direct to his power amps. OH MY GAWD!! This was music. It was the best I have ever heard music in Mike's room. It was some of the best reproduction of music I have ever heard.

The little SB2 running direct to the power amps through a pair of Nitro interconnets was so clean and clear. It also had VERY high PRAT. We both couldn't stop tapping our toes.

I feel that a modded SB2 and a linear power supply direct to good power amps with great interconnect cables offers the closest thing to what the artist had recorded. In such a simple system EVERYTHING comes through and EVERYTHING matters. We tried a couple of different power cables going into the SB2 and both preferred a Nitro Plus over a shielded Belden with Gold Furutech connectors.

I was truly floored by how good such a simple system sounded. If CDs are your only source of music now, I cannot stress how much better a file sounds through a modded SB2. This can change a lot of systems. You can get rid of a LOT of gear. All that is needed is your computer anywhere in the house, a modded SB2 and power supply, a very good pair of interconnects, a power amps, good speaker cable and speakers.

Say good bye to a preamp, CD player, unneeded cables, etc.

Hopefully Mike will add his comments.

EProvenzano

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #1 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:27 am »
Hi Wayne,
Am I correct to assume you were using the digital volume control on the SB2? or was the amplifier an integrated design?

If you were using the SB2's digital volume, did you notice any detrimental effects at low volumes?

Thanks.

mgalusha

More about Wayne's modded Squeezebox 2 (long)
« Reply #2 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:41 am »
A few comments about the modded Squeezebox 2 that Wayne brought over today.

As you might have gathered from my short post the sound we obtianed from the modded SB2 was nothing short of outstanding.

My system is currently a modded Denon 2900 universal player, a diy tube linestage that is quite similar in sound to the deHavilland UltraVerve (I have a friend with one and they sound very similar). Amps are currently R.E. Designs LNPA 150's and speakers are Meadowlark Blue Heron 2's. I also have a decent analog front end but that is not relavent to this as it's all about the digital. ;)

I have been experimenting with PC based audio for the past 3-4 months and had built a dedicated audio PC and was using a modded StereoLink USB dac with excellent results but even with extra quiet fans and drives I could still hear the PC running softly between songs. This was masked by the music but I wanted to get rid of all the noise. Given all the good things people had to say about the Squeezebox and given that I already have many of my CD's ripped to the PC and I had an ethernet cable run to the stereo rack, purchasing a SB2 was an easy descision.

Now to the important stuff. :) (bet you're glad of that)

First we listend to the system with the stock SB2 connected to the preamp like any other source. It sounded pretty good but was not great by any means. Part of this is the fact that the speakers are still quite new and only have about 150 hours on them. Wayne agreed that the speakers still sounded a bit rough in the upper frequencies.

We then replaced the stock wall wart switching power supply with the regulated linear supply built by Bolder Cable. A very substantial improvement. Much of the edginess and roughness in the upper frequencies went away and the speakers didn't sound like they needed breaking in as bad. We swapped the power supplies back and forth a couple of times and it was quite apparent that the linear supply was much smoother and provided improvements across the board and IMO should be the first item addressed by SB2 owners. This offers a great deal of improvement for not a lot of money and of course requires no intermal mods to the SB2.

We also swapped out the power cord to the linear supply to see how it would react to the change. Note we had the SB2 power supplies plugged into a BPT balanced power supply. Wayne substituted a shielded cable for the Bolder Nitro that we had been listening to and somewhat to my surprise the presentation changed quite noticeably. Mostly it was flatter and less realistic sounding. Instruments lost much of their body and the soundstage lost a fair amount of depth. We put the Nitro back in and left it. It was unquestionably nicer than his other power cord.

It was time to insert the modded SB2. This was a very nice improvement in every respect. Upper frequencies were much smoother and very natural, bass was tighter and more realistic. It was easy to get a sense of body with a floor bass and a piano. A nice wooden resonance that you hear in a live setting. We played quite a variety of tracks, something that is trivially easy with the SB2.

We also played an SACD hybrid of the Gene Harris quartet on the Denon, both the Redbook and SACD layers and in comparison to the modded SB2 the Denon sounded very tipped up in the high end and the bass was a bit on the boomy side. In the past I have been very happy with the sound of the Denon but since putting the Meadowlark BH2's in the system I have been irritated by the high frequencies. The Denon was just fine with my Vandy 3A signatures but was too bright with the BH2's. I figured this was because the tweeters on the Meadowlarks just needed more time. Well, maybe they do but the more we listened the more it became apparent that the ScanSpeak R2904/7000 tweeters were just being brutally honest. If the signal was harsh or edgey, then the tweeters didn't hide it at all. I'm keeping the Denon because I own a quite a few SACD's but for Redbook, the modded SB2 was smoother and more musical in my system.

We were really done fooling around and were just listening and having a nice conversation and Wayne mentioned he wanted to try driving power amps directly sometime to see how well the SB2 would work in that scenario. I said, no time like the present. Neither of us really knew how well it would work as part of the mods bypass the final op amps and drives the output directly from the DAC. Would it have enough current to drive the amps directly? How well would the digital volume work at low levels? While hooking it up I said this would not be an grey area experiment, it would either suck or be stunningly good. Well, it didn't suck...

We were both shocked at how good the combination proved to be. It was not subtle. My first comment to Wayne was who dropped the electrostats in my living room. It turns out that the Meadowlarks are much more transparent than we thought. The sound had the clarity and openess of a good electrostat with the addition of superb bass and realistically sized instruments (some large planars make instruments oversized IMO). It was one of those moments where we both just looked at each other and pretty much said where did this come from. Of course we started playing all the tracks we did earlier and some of them were like listening to a different recording.

Well I'm sure this has gone on too long but I wanted to make it real clear just how nice this piece sounds with the Bolder mods.

Yes Wayne is a friend but those who know me also know I wouldn't say this if I didn't really like it. IMO he is offering a quality product for a reasonable price. Given what I heard today my SB2 will be in the shop for mods very soon.

mike

Wayne1

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #3 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:43 am »


These were the amps.

RE Designs LNPA 150 Monoblocks

http://www.redesignsaudio.com/LNPA150.html

Nothing was in the signal path between the DAC chip and the amp circuit save one Sonicap.

We listened at various levels and there was no indication of any bit dropping. Dynamics were intact at all levels we listened to.

Th SB2 does convert all information to 24 bits.

mgalusha

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #4 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:44 am »
EProvenzano,

The amps are just a standard power amp with no built in level controls. I believe they are specd at 26db of gain. The input impedance of the amps is 39K.

mgalusha

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #5 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:44 am »
Damn, that Wayne is fast. Beat me to the answer by seconds. :)

holyghostfire21

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Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #6 on: 15 Aug 2005, 06:29 am »
I just wondering what mods were done to the Denon player. The squeezebox sounds like the answer for me.

mgalusha

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #7 on: 15 Aug 2005, 01:36 pm »
The Denon has the mods from Underwood Hi-Fi including the superclock, plus some additional work including a common mode input filter and removal of the output muting transistors. Also, as the DC offset was very low on my unit, I eliminated the output coupling caps.

I've been very happy with the Denon but the sound of connecting the SB2 directly to the power amps was amazing. Nothing like using a passive volume attenuator.

Tirade

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Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #8 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:13 pm »
For those who are wondering what mods were done to the SB2, here is the list of stuff that Wayne provided me, but since most of it is greek to me, then he would be better off explaining it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main mod to the SB2 is building a linear power supply to replace the switcher. It uses a 5.6 amp transformer, HexFreds, two Panasonic FC series caps and a Linear Technologies 1.5 A 5 volt regulator on a good sized heat sink. All connections are hard wired, point to point with solid core Nitro Wire.

It uses a Silver Plated Acme Audio IEC connector and a Silver Plated, Cryo Treated fuse holder. It uses the same sized DC output jack as on the input to the SB2. The cable to connect between them is shielded and also uses the same solid core Nitro wire. The PS does not come with an AC cable.

The mods to the SB2 are replacement of the main 5 v power supply cap with a Panasonic FC in a higher rating.

The caps in the DAC PS are replaced. The crystals are damped. The digital out jack is replaced with a WBT NextGen Gold. It is the only female panel mount RCA that is designed to be 75 ohm. It is also pure copper plated with gold. No brass and the amount of metal is kept to a minimum.

The output op-amp is bypassed. A pair of Sonicaps are run direct from the output of the DAC to the new Cardas RCA jacks. The main 14 V PS cap is replaced with a Panasonic FC series cap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne decided to offer the power supply separate so folks can just get that, without mods, for an easy upgrade that would not void any warranty. He will offer a digital output only mod with the replacement of the digital out jack and the power supply caps for less money then the analog audio out for those who wish to use an external DAC.

Also for those who are interested in making the move to a PC based transprt but dont have the time/knowledge/desire to rip your CD's the proper audiophile quality files, you can visit this thread for more info on having it done for free.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20839

BradJudy

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #9 on: 15 Aug 2005, 03:20 pm »
Cool stuff Mike.  I didn't realize you had picked up Meadowlarks (in the closeout sale?).  I'll have to make it down there sometime to check out.

brj

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #10 on: 15 Aug 2005, 04:03 pm »
The SB2 analog outputs direct to the amps sounds like a great approach for many situations.

A few questions for Wayne and others:

1) Is there any inherent gain in the SB2?  I'm thinking of lower efficiency systems that rely on the pre-amp to provide some minimum level of gain, and I'm wondering if the SB2 could potentially act in a similar manner.

2) Is there any way that he output impedance of the SB2 could be adjusted easily at the time of modification to match well with a given pair of amps?

3) A face off I'd like to see:

- SB2 analog outputs direct to a given set of amps vs.
- SB2 digital output to a modded "pure path" digital receiver (ala Panasonic SA-XR70)

I realize that this would be a tough comparison, because you aren't comparing a single aspect of one system to a single aspect of another, but practically two completely different component chains, but any comments would be of interest.

Thanks!

Wayne1

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #11 on: 15 Aug 2005, 04:43 pm »
The modded SB 2 should provide enough voltage to drive most amps. It outputs about 3.3 volts. Most amps should be able to be driven close to their rated power with this.

I have no ability to use this modded Squeezebox 2 with my HT system with the modded SA-XR70. I use a wireless network in my house and the SB2 I have is wired only.

It is going to be shipped to it's owner today. No more tests or comparisons will be able to be made until someone sends me another one :lol:

Mike is going to be busy for the next few weekends and both Tyson and Jerry are in the process of moving.

Tyson

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Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #12 on: 15 Aug 2005, 05:18 pm »
No kidding, I'd love to hear it, but I'd probably just end up buying the damn thing :D  Lucky for me I'll be busy moving over the next couple of weeks - anyone want to help lug some big @ss RM40's from one high rise to another :p

Wayne1

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #13 on: 15 Aug 2005, 05:36 pm »
Tyson, YOU NEED this thing!!! :lol:

You can get rid of the nOrh CD player, modded DI/O, preamp and all those expensive cables.

Use all that extra money to buy scotch.

Simplfy your system and make it sound better.

Tyson

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  • Without music, life would be a mistake.
Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #14 on: 15 Aug 2005, 06:21 pm »
Oh yes, it will happen, no doubt (assuming you and mike haven't gone deaf and/or weren't heavily inebreated during the listening session at mike's :D ).

Freeing up money to buy scotch is always high on my priority list.

Wayne1

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #15 on: 15 Aug 2005, 06:46 pm »
The only liquid consumed was pure H2O :(

Of couse, there was no rap played so our hearing remained intact.

Sell all your extra gear now so you don't have to move it  :roll:

Your wife will LOVE it. No ugly piles of gear cluttering up the living room.



Just one big black box and a small green display  :lol:

You even get remote volume control thrown in for free!

pugs

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Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #16 on: 15 Aug 2005, 07:49 pm »
Mike,

Since you have the SB2 directly connected to your amps, do have to change cable connections when you want to use your Denon?

KJ

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #17 on: 15 Aug 2005, 08:35 pm »
Quote from: Wayne1
the SB2 I have is wired only.

Wayne,

You could always buy a wireless bridge if you were interested in using the non-wireless SB2.    Here's an example.

-KJ

Wayne1

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #18 on: 15 Aug 2005, 09:59 pm »
Thank you for the information. The SB2 belongs to a customer. It is going back home.

I do not personally own a SB2, yet.

When I get one, it will be the wireless version.

DSK

Squeezebox 2 listening session
« Reply #19 on: 15 Aug 2005, 11:56 pm »
I sent an e-mail to Slim Devices support yesterday, asking whether the SB2 could comfortably drive 2 amps simultaneously (eg. a 47k main amp & a 30k active sub) via Y-connectors on its RCA outputs. I will post the answer if and when they reply.