[dogberry]

What format were the tracks in you guys were listening to?  FLAC?  

It'd be interesting to hear how it sounds running it wireless in the system.

[Wayne1]

Mike ripped the files to FLAC.

[mgalusha]

Mike,

Since you have the SB2 directly connected to your amps, do have to change cable connections when you want to use your Denon?

Pugs,

At this time I'm doing it the old fashioned way, pulling the cables out. I may very well build a switchbox to go between the amps and the SB2 and preamp but I hate to introduce the additional cables, plugs, jacks and switch contacts.

I haven't determind what I'll do long term yet but it surely was nice running direct. Of course my SB2 is still stock, so this won't become an issue until it's modded.

Mike

[mgalusha]

What format were the tracks in you guys were listening to?  FLAC?

They were ripped to FLAC and the SB2 server is configured to convert them to WAV before streaming them to the SB2. I did this after reading several threads on the Slimdevices forum. I didn't compare the two but I'd rather load the servers CPU rather than the SB2's and bandwidth certainly isn't a problem. Should work fine on wireless as even an uncompressed WAV is only about 1.5 mb/second (IIRC)

Mike

[Turk]

Mike & Wayne,

I leave town for 4 days and you two start a digital revolution.  Geez, no preamp, itsy bitsy super dac and computer control.  I'll have to head down to Mike's and drag MyExemplar Denon 2900, tube output ya know, and see if it gets its ass kicked.  Even if it were equal how can you match the convenience and the price.  

Well if it works as well as you guys say, (it no doubt does, you have great ears or, um hearing) then I gotta have one.  Only thing is, whos is going to build me a computer?  Will my HP work?

Jer

[Wayne1]

Jerry,

I think Mike might be able to help you out on the PC end of things. The main upgrade you may need is some more hard drives.

Let me know when you get some time for a listening session.

[jswallac]

This is really interesting stuff, and definitely looks like the next big thing.  To be able to get convenience and sound quality together, and at a great price!  It almost sounds like a scam, too good to be true.

My first question relates to the power supply.  It appears that the biggest improvement comes from replacing the wall wart with the regulated power supply.  What if one already uses a good power conditioner?  Will that satisfy the power supply deficiencies?  Or is it still necessary to replace the wall wart even if it is plugged into a good power conditioner?

My second question relates to the "other" modified SB2 that is being discussed on the Cirlcles.  I know the major difference is battery power versus the grid.  Are there other substantial differences in what is being done?

Thanks.

[Wayne1]

Both the stock wall wart and the upgraded power supply were plugged into one of  Mike's BPT balanced power systems. His amps were plugged into another.

All the differences we wrote about were "with" power conditioning. We did not compare the two plugged straight into the wall.

The switching wall PS is nasty no matter where you plug it in. A cleaner DC will help with the sound of the SB2

The mods to the SB2 that Vinnie offers are very similar to what I offer. He uses a 12 VDC battery to power the 5 volt regulator and to run direct into the SB2 to run the other power supplies. He uses some different brands of caps than I do.

I decided to build a straight 5 volt high current power supply so that folks can upgrade in stages. There are a fair amount of people that really don't understand about mods. They may be leery about spending over twice the cost of the unit on mods. I offer them a reasonably price upgrade path. They don't have to have radical surgery to the SB2 to realize the improvements that a high quality power supply can make.

I decided to build it with an IEC connector so people can try different power cables and hear what works best in their system. I use premium parts that I have heard differences in.

This will just be the first stage in the mod offerings for the SB2. My experiences with modding the DI/O have shown me that providing an upgrade path is what people want.

I probably will offer another upgraded power supply with multiple DC voltage outputs. It would cost quite a bit more and might be in a different case. It would have separate transformers for each voltage and separate regulators. People that bought the 5 volt power supply should be able to send it back and I could use the parts in the upgraded unit.

I have had all of one week to work out the first set of mods and power supply. With more time I should come up with a few more things, just like I did with the DI/O

I have ordered all the parts to build 5 volt power supplies. They should be here in about a week. That is what I suggest as a first step along the path to hear what the SB2 can do. I also suggest a very good power cable, like one of my Nitro or Nitro Plus will make a big difference. I have not yet tried different designs for the DC cable. I did make it possible to try out different cables to tune the unit to your system.

In my experiments with battery powered gear, I have found that a pure SLA battery doesn't respond fast enough by itself. Adding a resevoir capacitor after the battery improved the sonics quite a bit. I decided to build an AC powered supply to fill that capacitor. It is always on and the voltage will not sag. There is nothing to replace. There are no switches to throw.

I am sure that the mods that Red Wine Audio offer are very good. A lot of folks really like the work that Vinnie does. I have had nothing but good reports from people. My dealings with him personally have been very few but he has been very gracious.

There are many ways to get to a place. Vinnie has decided on one path and I have decided on another.

Sorry for the long, rambling answer.

[mr_bill]

If I have balanced amps - Rowland M501's, with only balanced inputs -does it still make sense to run the SB2 directly into the amps and use the internal volume control and the rca outputs on the SB2?
thanks,
bill

[brj]

In my experiments with battery powered gear, I have found that a pure SLA battery doesn't respond fast enough by itself. Adding a resevoir capacitor after the battery improved the sonics quite a bit. I decided to build an AC powered supply to fill that capacitor. It is always on and the voltage will not sag.

How important is current delivery speed on a device like this?  The two biggest sources of load are presumably the display and the DAC/DSP, but wouldn't the current drawn by these devices be relatively constant when playing music?  You wouldn't have the big swings in current draw that you find with an amp.  If this is true, then speed wouldn't be as big of a player in this unit or, by extension, most line level components.  Are my assumptions incorrect, or have I missed something else?

Thanks!

[Wayne1]

Everything I have said about removing a preamp and extra cables should  hold true in most applications.

I have heard the modded SB2 in one system. I sent it back to it's owner today. I suggest you try out a stock SB2 and see how it sounds to you.

Mods will only make it better.

It is no problem for me to build a cable that will go from RCA male to XLR. I do suggest you keep the cable run to the amp short.

[Wayne1]

brj,

I found the most dramatic difference when playing around with the Monica 2 DAC. Running straight from a SLA battery it was very lifeless. When a capacitor bank was added after the battery, the music was more dynamic and full.

The Monica 2 has practically no current draw. The SB 2 does pull almost a constant amp. This is more than a Tripath 2024 power amp chip does.

This is my observation and one of the reasons I chose to use AC to supply the SB2.

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Wayne and all,

Just snooping around and decided to drop in and say hello  
Feel free to give me the boot at any time  

The switching wall PS is nasty no matter where you plug it in. A cleaner DC will help with the sound of the SB2

I agree 100%  

My findings a few weeks ago about sending the volume controlled RCA outputs directly to a power amp seem to match Wayne and mgalusha's findings in their recent listening session...it sounds really, really good!  Feeding the output of the dac directly to the power amp via a good coupling cap certainly yields a minimalist signal path along with stunning transparency, and let's not forget system simplicity -- Nice!

The mods to the SB2 that Vinnie offers are very similar to what I offer. He uses a 12 VDC battery to power the 5 volt regulator and to run direct into the SB2 to run the other power supplies. He uses some different brands of caps than I do.

Yes, I am feeding the SB2s 5V input with a 5V regulated SLA battery, but I am also feeding the 12V SLA power directly into the SB2 to use instead of the internal 14V switching regulator (which, like the stock external supply, is a switcher and addes HF hash).  The internal 14V switching reg feeds critical 5V and 3.3V regulators, which feed the internal dac and spdif output circuit.  Replacing the internal 14V switcher with a linear ac-dc supply (something I'm sure Wayne can offer for a next level mod) or battery power makes the modded SB2 sound even better!  

There are many ways to get to a place. Vinnie has decided on one path and I have decided on another.

Absolutely.  Some mods we do are the same (e.g., taking the output directly off of the internal dac to the RCA jacks via high quality coupling caps), and we do some other things differently.   We have differing opinions (e.g. an SLA's response in a system), but we also share the opinion that the SB2 is a great product and has a ton of modding potential!

I am sure that the mods that Red Wine Audio offer are very good. A lot of folks really like the work that Vinnie does. I have had nothing but good reports from people. My dealings with him personally have been very few but he has been very gracious.

Wayne, I really appreciate your comments and professionalism.  Thank you.     It's nice to see that two pro modders of the SB2, as well as DIY'ers (those damn DIY'ers....just kidding JoshK) can all play in the same sandbox and have fun.    

Take care,

[brj]

I found the most dramatic difference when playing around with the Monica 2 DAC. Running straight from a SLA battery it was very lifeless. When a capacitor bank was added after the battery, the music was more dynamic and full.

The Monica 2 has practically no current draw. The SB 2 does pull almost a constant amp. This is more than a Tripath 2024 power amp chip does.

This is my observation and one of the reasons I chose to use AC to supply the SB2.

Thanks for the reply, Wayne!

Just to be clear - I'm not doubting your observation in the least.  I fully prepared to believe that the addition of the cap made a positive difference, and I accept that caps are generally faster than power supplies and batteries.  I'm simply trying to understand the underlying effect, as I couldn't intuitively attribute the observed effect to differences in current delivery speed (and I don't yet have the background to connect them via theory).

If the current draw is constant and the current source can meet this constant load, then the ability to supply current quickly should be irrelevant, correct?  If this is true, then some other aspect of the implementation would have to be causing the effect - perhaps the native "sound" of the cap, battery or power supply.  Of course, I don't know what characteristics of a power supply, cap or battery affect the sound either, but that is a whole separate conversation...

Thanks again!

[Tirade]

It's nice to see that two pro modders of the SB2, as well as DIY'ers (those damn DIY'ers....just kidding JoshK) can all play in the same sandbox and have fun.    

Take care,

When I was young we had a quicksand box in the backyard. I was an only child... eventually..

(Quote stolen from Steven Wright)

[Wayne1]

Some folks were wondering if the linear power supply would have any effect using the digital out of the SB2 or if it was more apparent on the analog outs.

I just received a few SB2s in today.  I did a quick comparison of a stock SB2 on digital out into a modded ART DI/O and analog outs. I also compared the stock switching PS to the linear PS.

On both outputs the improvement of the linear PS over the stock was about the same. It made a very MAJOR improvement. The highs were less harsh, more analog. Midrange filled out and the low end exended. There was far more "blackness" between the notes. The background noise levels were quite a bit less.

On a stock SB2, I do prefer the digital out into a good DAC over the analog outs. On a modded SB2, the analog out is better. At least compared to anything else I have yet to hear  

[WK446]

Wayne1:

I was wondering if you would be acquiring a "better looking" case to house the linear power supply? I may be in the minority here, but it does not look very aesthetically pleasing compared to the SB2.

[Wayne1]

The case is the least expensive one I could find. It should be placed as close to the AC mains as possible. The idea is to keep the AC input cable short. From there, the DC output cable is 5 feet long (it can be made any length).

My thoughts are to keep the power supply and AC magnetic fields as far away from the SB2 unit as you can. The power supply can be placed on a low shelf, hidden away from view.

The power supply does get rather warm. It is best to keep hands away from it.

I CAN use a nicer looking case, but that would raise the price of the whole package. How much is a nicer case worth to you? The price would have to come close to doubling if I were to use a case similar to the one I used to use for the battery powered amps.

I felt it was far more important to use the absolute best parts possible to have the SB2 sound the best. In order to do that for under $200.00 I had to use an inexpensive case.

I will be working on the "Deluxe" power supply this week and mext. I will be looking at using a larger more expensive case. The cost of it will be quite a bit more than the "basic" power supply.

[WK446]

Wayne1:

Thanks for the information. I'd pay a bit more for a better case. IMHO, whether or not it is to be "hidden" away, it still has that DIY look to it.  

[Wayne1]

I will check again on pricing for an black anodized aluminum case that I can fit the "basic" power supply in.

My rough calculations would call for a selling price of $210.00-$225.00 for the same components in the "nicer" case. This does not include any engraving or labels.

BTW the basic ps does include a pair of JAZZ FOD on the bottom of the case for isolation and the sides of the case are covered internally with dampening material.

I was initially more concerned with the performance of the product over the appearance. I thought other folks would be too. Guess I was wrong