[Carlman]

I'm a complete novice to digital room correction.  I'd seen it in action 3 times before 'getting it'.  The first time it was just so far over my head I couldn't even process the description.

Anyway, I've come to learn what it is, what it can do, and how I can customize it for my tastes.  All of my experience has been with TacT gear.  If you think this stuff is daunting, it is and you're not alone.  However, like deciding to use a PC for a source, using digital room correction (DRC) has also been a rewarding challenge.  

The challenge with DRC was far greater for me than an audio PC because to me, building a PC is very easy.  Getting room correction to work well for me has involved learning what the specs of my speakers mean, a little about acoustics, and the instructions from my dealer, Hometheaterdoc/Shane.  (I can't begin to express how much I've appreciated his generous-ness in lending and instructing me on this TacT gear.)

I wrote a PM to LonewolfNY42 earlier today because I thought it was very important for him to try this stuff.  I don't often go out on a limb and recommend something to someone out of the blue.  Here's what I wrote (with a few edits):

..... (about the Nuforce ampflifiers I recently tried)... To me, they sounded warm and buttery WITH digital room correction (also known as DRC) provided by the TacT preamp I'm demo'ing. Without the DRC, I found them lacking in some ways, having a little bit darker and sterile sound to them. But, I wouldn't call them dark and sterile, just that in comparison to having DRC enabled, they leaned in that direction.

However, I could say something equally negative about every amp I compared last weekend... that without DRC, the amp had a grainy upper midrange, or boomy bass... or whatever... but WITH the correction, any of the 4 amps I heard would be great (and the decision was based on the personality of each amp setup and not the room's reaction to each amp).

It just seems as if I've been chasing my tail a long time trying different amps to get the right sound. However, all along I realize now I've mostly been hearing my room reacting to what the amps did. When you take the room out of the equation (or consistently fix it), the sound is GREAT no matter what you do.

I wish you lived closer so I could bring this stuff over to your place and show you what I'm experiencing every day. The difference is minor at first but it grows on you... Much like the first time you hear a pair of Europa's... it's like it soaks in after a while that what you're hearing is very realistic... and not overly hyped.

However, the beauty of this correction stuff is the adjustments. It's like having a really sophisticated lossless equalizer as well... so, you can bump certain areas a little more or less to get what you want.

I'm amazed at the sound in my room on a daily basis. I hope you can one day experience what it can do IN YOUR ROOM... Especially since yours is as small as mine... The correction just makes all the music so much more cohesive, instrument separation is for real, palpability is improved, etc... It's just so awesome.

I rarely gloat about something so much but I would think the TacT plus a good amp (or 2) would get you closer to sonic nirvana than you ever thought possible. It has done this with me. I absolutely cannot live without it now. Going back to my DK w/ no correction just won't do anymore.  

Anyway, just thought I'd relay how ecstatic I am about the TacT gear. It's everything I've ever hoped for. If you have a chance to experiment with it, let me know. I'll be glad to help where I can.

So, that's how amazed I really am... It's 'it' for me.  I will likely end up with the latest integrated from TacT a 2150x, which stored room correction curves and use it with an analog to digital card so I can use analog inputs.  I wish they made a 'phono' card.... then I wouldn't even need a phono pre.  But, they don't...

Anyway, hope this inspires some conversation about what other 'digital novices' like myself have run into.  I'd love to hear what others have thought about DEQX and Behringer gear... especially if they could compare it to TacT.  I have no clue of anything beyond TacT... other than when I was reading about DEQX and thought it made a lot of sense... But I've never heard or seen it.

I think there's a lot of skepticism about this gear.  I don't think it has a good 'wow' factor... It's a sleeper and it creeps up on you.  It has for me.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts.

-Carl

[lonewolfny42]

Carl,

Glad you posted this !! I know how you have tried to get a great sound in your room. Many piece's of equipement have come and gone...some even on a loan from me. And, you are right, this correction stuff at times sounds confusing. I remember a visit to George's/zybar when he was auditioning the HT3's. Watching him with his laptop and mic, getting charts and graph's....thought I was plotting a stock on a chart to buy.... [/list:u]
Well, the more info we can get...and in simple terms...the better. It comes down to the sound...if it sounds good - use it !![/list:u]
I do hope others will post with their experience's using these products. I'd like to gain more info, so as to make a better decision.Thanks !!!   [/list:u]
Chris[/list:u]

[ekovalsky]

Carl,

After my initial week of hell learning how to setup and use the TacT (I had about ten different problems that needed to be sorted out) I had a major audiophile epiphany:  I realized that correction made a vastly greater impact in my system's sound compared to multiple expensive cable and equipment changes I had previously made.  

I had also been contemplating selling my year old speakers, which I had promised my wife were "keepers".  After measuring them and altering their tonal balance with the TacT, my mind was made up and I was even able to explain to my wife why I needed to change

The more severe the problems with the room and the loudspeakers, the greater the potential positive influence of correction will be.  Since neither a perfect room nor a perfect loudspeaker exist, I do believe that anyone can benefit from these devices if they are willing to overcome the learning curve and understand its limitations.

Once you get your setup finalized, you must try the drop-in linear PSU upgrade for the RCS, offered by Aberdeen Components.  It will take the RCS to another level of performance for relatively small cost, and has a no hassle money back guarantee.  I'm not aware of anyone sending one back to him.

Shane is very knowledgeable about the TacT gear and will undoubtedly take good care of you.  Don't hesistate to shoot any other questions you have my way, I'll do my best to help out.

Others contemplating this technology don't need to limit themselvse to TacT, although I obviously think very highly of their products.  Meridian, Accuphase, DEQX, Lyngdorf, BOZ, and Behringer have or will have similar products at varying price points.  The capabilities of the Behringer Ultracurve DEQ2496 are incredible -- and it costs less than most decent power cables  

[Carlman]

Eric,
I think you understand the TacT (almost) as well as the manufacturer at this point and I haven't really gotten as deep into it.  You are THE go-to guy at AC for this stuff.  I think any manufacturer needs a 'how to' forum and I'm sure TacT has one.. but I haven't even gotten that far... been too busy between work and listening to tunes.  Anyway, I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and will continue to learn from you.  

I think the TacT represents something the regular 'Joe Audiophile' could handle... but with help.  My experience has been made easy by my dealer.  If I had to learn it all myself, I probably wouldn't have even tried it.  Eric's posts only help me after I've learned something... it's like intermediate and advance training (if you want it)... But my point is that you don't have to get as deep into it to enjoy what it can do.

It IS different than installing a traditional preamp/amp combo but it's equally as challenging as tuning your room with a traditional RTA and acoustic products.  

For instance... When 8th Nerve visited my house, they had thousands of dollars of gear to test my room, speakers, etc.  They tested polarity of each driver, measured and corrected the distance to listener from each speaker, and used an RTA to determine where I had room-induced frequency peaks or valleys...  We applied their products throughout the room and got a pretty flat curve.  It was cool.  The ordeal took an entire afternoon.  When they left, the system sounded great... better than it ever did or ever would again.  It stayed in its position until I moved to a new house.

So, this TacT stuff does the same thing for me but I can adjust it instead of the room.  Plus, it's better than the traditional treatments could have ever brought me in my room.  I would've had to cover all of my walls and ceiling with foam, traps, etc... and that's just not meeting the decor acceptance.  I already have enough uglies in there as it is.

After I wrote my initial impressions, I thought about 'BrunoB'... the master of foam...  He did an experiment he called the 'foam cocoon' that essentially removed the room from his musical presentation.  The TacT does something similar to that.  I wish I could have Bruno drop by and hear this, with a specific cd he used of a violin solo, and see if he liked it.  I bet he would.  But, he's back in Belgium now so, 'dropping by' isn't an option... A lot of the things I heard in his cocoon, I could hear after the correction was done.  It just removes the walls and makes your experience much more real.  

I have noticed there is a compromise... and I can't put my finger on it but it's in the sound quality itself... not what the sound does, like imaging, separation, etc... but the actual sounds aren't as transparent as I think they could be.  I'm guessing that's what the power supply upgrade addresses.  I'll be trying that soon after getting the new amp.  This little issue is just that, little.  I wouldn't give up the rest of the TacT for this minor foible but as always, gear is gear... and it's not perfect in every way, just perfect for me.  

The Audio PC is much the same, what it gives up in ultimate resolution (compared to multi-thousand-$ transports) is made up for by what it gets right, a near-analog presentation of the music.

I've picked compromises that don't matter much to me in order to gain my favorite things and am quite satisfied with what I've got at the moment.  I hope others find this to be true with the TacT... Just get a friend with patience to help you get started..

-C

[ekovalsky]

I have noticed there is a compromise... and I can't put my finger on it but it's in the sound quality itself... not what the sound does, like imaging, separation, etc... but the actual sounds aren't as transparent as I think they could be. I'm guessing that's what the power supply upgrade addresses. I'll be trying that soon after getting the new amp.  

You'll be very pleased with the Condor linear PSU.  I was rather shocked at the difference it made in my dig-in, dig-out unit.  It really struck me when I removed it to send back to Anthony for an update, and reinstalled the stock Meanwell -- big loss of transparency and new layer of grain added to the sound.  Also there is a big improvement in "PRAT" with the upgraded PSU.

The improvement from that PSU upgrade is not on the level of the typical cable or power cord swap or other "tweak".  It is like replacing a 1985 Sony CD player with a current state of the art digital source.

[Jon L]

So what does your setup look like now?  Are you using TACT 2.0 or 2.2 with TACT's DA converter instead of your Delta soundcard's DA?

I"m sure the new PS does wonders for TACT, but what I noticed even doing minimal digital processing in PC software is a subtle "something."  It 'could' be called loss of transparency, but to me it's more like 'freshness' of instrumental life playing in front of me.  Reminds me of fresh-brewed mountain-grown coffee that's an hour too old..  

I'm rethinking my plans for PC-based DRC and/or TACT/DEQX DRC for now until this field matures a bit more for less $.

[Carlman]

So what does your setup look like now?  Are you using TACT 2.0 or 2.2 with TACT's DA converter instead of your Delta soundcard's DA?

I"m sure the new PS does wonders for TACT, but what I noticed even doing minimal digital processing in PC software is a subtle "something."  It 'could' be called loss of transparency, but to me it's more like 'freshness' of instrumental life playing in front of me.  Reminds me of fresh-brewed mountain-grown coffee that's an hour too old..  

I'm rethinking my plans for PC-based DRC and/or TACT/DEQX DRC for now until this field matures a bit more for less $.

Today I have:
Digital out from the Delta Dio soundcard -> Tact 2.2x preamp, -> TacT 2150

This is a stunning combo for me.  As to 'freshness', I think in audiophile terms you may be referring to 'ultimate palpability'?  I would consider the GMA Europa's or other 2nd order crossovers for that sound you desire.  In fact, I would think the Tact 2.2x, GMA's, and 2 punchy sealed subs would be able to give you a 'there' experience like you wouldn't believe possible.  At the end of the day, I'd just suggest trying it, demoing it, or somehow spending time with this stuff in your own listening environment before ruling it out.

Who knows.... If you hold out long enough, this technology may get cheaper, easier, available on a PC... I don't know.  I just know I like it enough right now and feel it's worth the price.  At 3,k, the 2150 is the same price as the DK integrated... which is a great amp but doesn't do digital room correction.  The amp section itself sounds different but not better or worse to me.  So, the value is there for me at this point.

-C

[gonefishin]

Hi guys...nice discussion


   I own and only have experience with the DEQX-p.  One of the main reasons I wanted to try the DEQX preamp was it's crossover abilities.  Plus having additional speaker correction capabilities really makes it almost a must for any audiophile ().   By also having room correction capabilities makes units like this even more attractive.

  To date...I haven't had too much time to set aside to really get into the DEQX abilities.  But, even from the very beginning I am extrmely impressed.  I would have to echo Carlman's statements that WITH the room correction, it has made me rethink the way I look at other components such as amps and particularly cables.

   I hope to set aside some more time to really get into the DEQX unit...but then again...I've got some more treatments to set up also...and also another amp to run my tweeters.  It looks like I may be busy for a while


  dan

[JoshK]

Dan,

You sound like me, too many projects to do to actually get to play with them.  

[ctviggen]

But the TACT isn't a cure all -- if you have modal ringing, the TACT cannot cure this.  Only acoustic treatments can "cure" modal ringing.

[ekovalsky]

But the TACT isn't a cure all -- if you have modal ringing, the TACT cannot cure this.  Only acoustic treatments can "cure" modal ringing.

While not a "cure" the TacT is very effective in dealing with modal ringing at the listening position by attenuating frequencies where resonances between parallel walls potentiate speakers output.  

I recently spent the better part of an hour with the Realtraps test tone CD measuring the bass response at the listening chair, with and without correction.  With the TacT correction program enabled I was within +/- 2dB of my target curve (which has a gradual +3dB rise in the bass starting at 320hz) from 19hz to 300hz.  In bypass mode the range was about 30dB !  Hearing bass notes in your room one hertz at a time is very enlightening -- you can have +15dB and -15dB at two nearby frequencies, which would average to 0dB with most test CDs and meters!

Could I get this even a response in my room with just passive treatments ?  Very unlikely, unless the treatment involved removing the ceiling and two adjacent walls  

In the future I will try a "Double Bass Array" setup which should (in theory) emulate a perfect bass trap for the rear wall.  There are three potential advantages of this over DSP:

1.  Bass response should be vastly improved everywhere in the room, not just at the listening position.  This is the big drawback of the DSP devices, and is an issue if more than one person is routinely listening.  

2.  Nulls will be much easier to correct than with DSP.  I have spent many hours finding the speaker and listening chair positions which minimize the nulls.  My remaining major null at about 55hz is "hidden" by the DSP crossover.

3.  Low frequency penetration through walls (mainly the rear wall, which is the only one that opens into my house) should be significantly decreased.  This translates into higher SPLs late at night, after the wife and kids are asleep, which is when I do most of my serious listening.  Luckily the current wall is "soundproofed" with dual 2x6 construction, blown in cellulose, and doubled drywall so I am not really volume restricted, unless I really want to crank it up.

[Marbles]

In the future I will try a "Double Bass Array" setup..

Eric, can you explain what you mean by this?  Since you already have 2 bass towers I assume it's different.

Thanks

[woodsyi]

Hearing bass notes in your room one hertz at a time is very enlightening -- you can have +15dB and -15dB at two nearby frequencies, which would average to 0dB with most test CDs and meters!

It is quite educating for me to hear pure tones by each Hz.  

Eric, are you going to put 2 more identical bass towers in the back or are you going to put something different back there?  What amp will you be using for the subs?   I am curious if you ever got Nuforce for the subs like you mentioned before.  I am intriqued by their high damping factor.

Keep up the great discussions gentlemen.  I am going to stay conventional for as long as I spin vinyl but I would like to keep abreast of DSP developments.  My parents paid 3k for Apple IIe way back when I was in highschool.  At 64kHz that is a nickle per Hz of processing speed.  What is it now?  Hopefully the AV DSP products, too, will improve and come down in price in a very near future.

[ekovalsky]

Eric, can you explain what you mean by this?  Since you already have 2 bass towers I assume it's different.

Thanks

Marbles, there is a long thread in this circle about the DBA.  In short, it involves adding two more subs (for a total of four) to the back of the room.  These are run in inverted phase with added delay -- the goal being to cancel the bass wave from the front subs after you hear it, but before it reflects off the rear wall.  

Woodsyi, two more identical bass towers is not going to happen !  I'll probably look to Danny (GR) and Al (RAW) to build me something similar.  I haven't tried the Nuforce yet, Frank A. was supposed to bring some buy a few weeks ago but I had to cancel because of work obligations.  Comparing them with the Crown K2 would be most interesting, as both have a high damping factor and can drive 1-2 ohms loads.  Best amp for the second pair of subs, when I get them, will be the TacT S2150 since it has menu commands to invert polarity and add delay.  It is currently driving the Alon bass towers, but I'm losing output below 30hz because of the dropping impedance -- down to 1 ohm at 19hz.

The price of DSP has already gone extremely low = BEHRINGER.   More $ = better chassis and power supplies and passive parts (TacT, DEQX, Accuphase) and I doubt the current top-end products from these manufacturers will be cheaper in the future.  But the longer you wait the more performance and capabilities you will have.  In a way this is like computers -- $3000 would buy a decent computer in 1985 and in 2005.  But the one in 2005 will be a helluva a lot faster and with a lot more RAM and drive space.

[BrunoB]

Hi Carl,

After I wrote my initial impressions, I thought about 'BrunoB'... the master of foam... icon_wink.gif He did an experiment he called the 'foam cocoon' that essentially removed the room from his musical presentation. The TacT does something similar to that. I wish I could have Bruno drop by and hear this, with a specific cd he used of a violin solo, and see if he liked it. I bet he would. But, he's back in Belgium now so, 'dropping by' isn't an option... A lot of the things I heard in his cocoon, I could hear after the correction was done. It just removes the walls and makes your experience much more real.  ...

 Thanks for the invitation. I would love to drop in!  I am very curious about the Tact  room correction system now. I  was surprised to read that the Tact room correction system does sonically something similar to a near-anechoic room such as my Sound Cocoon. I understand that the Tact can correct the frequency response anomalies due to the reflection on the walls. But a room also adds delayed sounds to the direct sound.  In my experience, these  additional sounds add smearing ,  decrease image focus,  sonic details, intelligibility, microdynamics,  macrodynamics ...  . So, does the Tact system really removes the time delayed sounds? If yes, this is quite an achievement. It reminds me some headphones that can cancel the outside sounds by generating an out of phase sound wave.

Sad that I am not in NC anymore. I would have invited you and the Tact to  my place: I wonder if it could  improve my sound system as much as it does improve yours?


Bruno