Computers, DAC's a GK-1 and an AKSA

MattCassidy · « **on:** 13 Jul 2005, 10:33 pm »

Hi All,

I have a AKSA 100 Nirvana, and a soon to be finished GK-1R, at the moment I am using a Arcam CD player, but I am considering digitising my CD collection and using Apple iTunes and an Airport express as a digital source into some kind of DAC (hopefully a DAKSA). For those who are not familiar Apple's airport express allows wireless transfer of music from iTunes to the Airport which has both analogue (via 3.5mm plug) and digital outputs, then into the stereo..

My question is does anyone know of issues in using a computer as a "Transport", to digitise the CD's, I am led to believe once digitised the airport can supply a bit perfect digital output that can then go to DAC etc etc...

Any comments, musings, rants greatfully accepted.

Cheers
Matt

EchiDna · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Jul 2005, 11:45 pm »

head over to the square circle *shamless plug* right here on these boards

but you can forget Itunes as a player - try Foobar with the ASIO plugin...

personally I own an AKSA 100N, a GK-1r and I use a PC as transport through an ART DI/O dac that has been modded to within an inch of it's life... but I'm still keen to have a bit of a look at the DAKSA when it's out!

scarey amount of overlap in our systems there!

cheers,

MattCassidy · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Jul 2005, 12:10 am »

How do you find the PC as a transport? I like iTunes I am an Apple man through and through I am afraid to inform you! The airport really suits my lifestyle too as it means wireless access....

EchiDna · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Jul 2005, 01:34 am »

matt, we are way OT here - suggest we take this over to the square circle.

FYI, I don't actually use my PC as a transport - I use it to rip lossless audio onto my server and just use the local machine as a client. It's all controlled by my wireless PDA so there is no monitor, keyboard or mouse and I have a funky touch screen remote

Docster · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Jul 2005, 04:26 am »

I've been thinking about doing this in my living area but not for "serious" listening as information is lost when ripping. Note that the airport express digital out is only optical which may limit your DAC choice. Roku sound bridge also looks pretty cool and has more functionality but of course more expensive........

MattCassidy · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Jul 2005, 04:37 am »

what do you mean information is lost when ripping? Are you talking about compression?

I was always thinking to store the files as lossless, but am very curious about information loss in the actual digitisation process.

Matt

EchiDna · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Jul 2005, 12:05 pm »

Quote from: Docster

I've been thinking about doing this in my living area but not for "serious" listening as information is lost when ripping. Note that the airport express digital out is only optical which may limit your DAC choice. Roku sound bridge also looks pretty cool and has more functionality but of course more expensive........

While you are right about the airport being optical out only, there is no 'loss' in lossless ripping docster...

plenty of options around for this, but EAC is the most common and best supported in the PC realm.

kyrill · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 08:43 am »

it is some time ago, but still a future path to go for many. I read somewhere that if you make a cd copy from a high end transport with very low jitter and from an internal cheap pc CD transport you can hear the difference between the two recordings Not one bit is lost but somehow the jitter is recorded too, can this be true?

tl1000sv · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jul 2007, 06:52 pm »

My audio system is built around your proposed philosophy. Of course, I am using LifeForce 100 mono's now which is not reflected in the system discussion. I've been very, very happy with the PC system and DAC solution.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1108927202&openfrom&1&4#1

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific or esoteric questions.

Tim

kyrill · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 09:15 am »

hi Tim

What a wonderful photo of yr listening environment

I do miss some green plants

I still have reservations about EAC copies on the PC, not because of EAC ( the best prg there is) but the cheapy pc cd transports.

Have you recently done an A/B listening test with PC as source and that same cd on a dedicated high endish transport?

tl1000sv · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jul 2007, 11:08 pm »

Thanks! It's an old picture - there are some plants now

If one rips the same CD 10 times and observes the exact same output (measurement via bit-for-bit comparison), my thoughts have been that the cheapness of the PC transport oughtn't be a concern. That said, I have found that the performance of certain CD players and EAC exceeds others, and finding a good one would be worthwhile. There are no shortage of discussions on EAC forums on what CD models are preferable.

Optical read performance might be a problem for a standalone player as it doesn't have the luxury of re-reading the media 10, 20 or 100 times in order to get an error-free read. I surmise that a poor-sounding standalone CD player is due to cheap output signal circuitry, then the performance of the onboard DAC, and least, the optical mechanism.

This suggests to me that in the context of a PC/DAC audio system, the digital interface from the PC to the DAC, and the jitter management/D-A circuit of the DAC itself, are far more important to the sound than the CD player used to do the ripping, as long as you can verify no errors on the rip.

Now to answer your question - yes, I've tried some decent CD players and the PC/DAC solution compares favorably.

AKSA · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 12:01 am »

TL,

Very nice setup, the result of many years of careful analysis and purchases. Congratulations on what I understand would be a magnificent system.

Quote

Thanks! It's an old picture - there are some plants now

This made me laugh. When Laurie was designing the VSonics for Aspen I noticed the depth of the enclosure (almost 18") and commented that you could put two vases of flowers on each!! We both laughed - this could well be a selling point; the width is only 9", the depth double that, so it fades out of view in any sitting room, a wonderful quality for WAF!!

I agree with your comments on ripping. My limited knowledge of this is that the data recovery modes of EAC used on a plain PC are actually superior because of the real time constraints of conventional CD players. With lossless compression, it then comes down to the jitter intrinsic in the SB clock and the analog output stage of the SB - and I believe the PC fades out of the picture here.

Cheers,

Hugh

kyrill · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 11:05 am »

ah good news? both of you thanks but but

i dont want ehh a pc next to my audio gear, now i have to if i want to have better sound If I read you well,
the pc solution will sound better than for instance a TEAC VDRS10 transport. also the pc must be set next to the the dac to shorten the interconnect between pc and DAC. Oh jee a whole new world to explore. I just upgraded my teac with BG caps in the pws. and a pc is a big machine o jee a whole new line begging for investigation
Help help

AKSA · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 12:28 pm »

Kyrill,

Technology marches on, but you don't have to sell your beloved CD player just yet!!

Wait until it's out of date, then quite quickly it will be cool again, and then you can do a vinyl with the old digital!!

Everything old is eventually new again..... turntables, anyone?

Cheers,

Hugh

avta · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 02:23 pm »

I made the switch to a Mac based system about 2 yrs ago. The computer is an older Mac Mini with a G4 processor. I have also been using computer based playback via an external hard drive. I use a free program written for Mac OS called Max ( www.sbooth.org ) to rip cd's into flac files which I then store on the hard drive. I have an unmodded Squeezebox2 which I use in wireless mode and which connects to my preamp. I do not yet have a dac. The pre is a Norh tubed unit connected to Nuforce 9.02 amps and Magnepan 1.6 speakers. I have an Oppo cd player as well. I'm certain that the quality of the sound has improved with the use of this setup. I rip the files with the built in drive in the Mac Mini. From my readings on this subject over the past few years this type of system allows for a high degree of accurate information to be extracted from the cd and converted into reasonably sized files. I do not use iTunes but use the software that is used with the Squeezebox. I've been satisfied so far but hope to keep improving things possibly with the addition of a dac.

EchiDna · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 02:28 pm »

Kyrill, how much are you prepared to spend on the experiment?

if you can spare US$200 or so and want to DIY, consider a USB DAC kit from Scott Nixon or diyparadise (which I only recently came to know about) - these will give you a good taste of how a PC can be a great source and if you don't like it, I'm sure many people would buy the built up kit for what you paid for it!

with USB, you can put the laptop/PC up to 5 metres away from the DAC via a cable. For quietness, I'd recommend a laptop but they do have limited capacity.... a 6+ year old computer will still happily run EAC for ripping and Foobar for playback and both are free

good luck on your journey!!

kyrill · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 05:19 pm »

oh i feel reluctancy coming up going that journey .I have a dac(s) in the preamp of the DEQX. I have a Well Tempered turntable and arm and the TEAC transport, but enjoy seeking for better sound as much as listening to music. I saw at the introduction of the Digital Lens ( some hdd/memory? ) as buffer improving cd playback, but the concept disappeared behind the horizon. Now it comes back in a more massive form,, the PC? ? ah well the PC or hdd as digital source. On the other hand I hate the phenomena , already a lot of songs on the Internet are distributed as mp3 (!!!!) in their original format( !!!) for that strange Iphone

Most high end setups do not yet have the pc or a hdd as the principal best source. The black LP is, then the CD ( not much o sacd or dvdA) But if yr guys are right, you are selling me that the pc is BETTER than high end transports to carry the cd information.. It does not work that way for HD DVD (yet) but scalers ( 3800 Crystalio II ) with build in hardware hdd player ( or dedicated hdd players like MB100/200) do have a better picture quality than standard definition dvd players or even hdd as source from a PC)

The squeeze box is better than a PC?

my current journey EchiDna, is building my 3way speakers from solid spruce board of course

but midrange open as a dipole ( only midrange.) The difficult thing is i want to avoid mechanical contact between speaker and baffle. Meaning the speaker is hold in its position by a its fixed magnet. The magnet is fixed by a heavy strong metal arm on a very heavy base for the woofer and solid wooden construction for midrange. Both bases do NOT make contact with baffle or enclosure. Tweeter is easy. But all 3 units do not make mechanical contact w each other.

There is good reason to avoid vibrations in the magnet as much as humanly possible. The magnetic field should be ideally standing perfectly still, but it vibrates in synchron with the magnet if the magnet vibrates. If feasible the effects of a still magnet will be much more transparency , more focus, more depth and more inner nuances, all the things we like so much.

tl1000sv · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Jul 2007, 07:38 pm »

avta - you do indeed already have a DAC, it's called a squeezebox. Basically it's a DAC with a wireless receiver.

kyrill - Hope the above answers your question. A squeezebox interfaces with a remote PC's digital store and presents a decoded analog signal to a preamp or amplifier.

Quote

you are selling me that the pc is BETTER than high end transports to carry the cd information..

I believe that your statement is true for transport specifically. The (audible) challenge is the subsequent decoding and line-level output. There's a whole community dedicated to modifying squeezeboxes and the like for better SQ, and the DIY DAC market seems as strong as ever.

Tim

EchiDna · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 08:00 am »

Tim,
What you say is right, the squeezebox does have a DAC in it... but only an average one (IMHO). this is where an external DAC (such as what's inside Kyrill's DEQX) makes life simple... get a squeezebox, upgrade the powersupply and use the digital out (either optical or RCA) to your DAC - here is a review that comes to more or les sthe same conclusion: http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/906slim/

personally I want the PC in my listening area, so I currently use the RCA digital out from an M-Audio soundcard to my trusty modded Art DI/O... I will go USB DAC someday soon when I get a bonus or something, but that can wait for now...

denjo · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 08:26 am »

EchiDna wrote:

Quote

get a squeezebox, upgrade the powersupply and use the digital out (either optical or RCA) to your DAC

... and make sure the volume function is disabled (that is, muted).