Computers, DAC's a GK-1 and an AKSA

kyrill · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 09:24 am »

Ha Denjo
I see you have the Altmann dac I suppose you have skimmed the internet to read everything about it? I would do

have you modded it? For instance consensus is it sounds better with a very highendish linear power supply? and what about the end capacitors? Are they high film grade?

but in general, what is your distant objective non emotional almost scientific evaluation even as the owner?

denjo · « **Reply #21 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 09:40 am »

Hi Kyrill

The Altmann thrives on good, stable and clean power!! As I have said before, my search for digital source was over with the Altmann-Paul Hynes shunt regulated PSU. I believe that a stock SB3 digital out (analog muted) feeding a stock Altmann, both powered by Paul Hynes' PSUs are all that one needs to get a digital source that can compete with the best out there.

Best Regards
Dennis

AKSA · « **Reply #22 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 11:44 am »

Hi Dennis,

Hmmm. You haven't heard my star performing power supply for the Squeezebox yet!!

A small number will be on sale at the RMAF in October for around $US690.

You are quite right, the power supply is pivotal.....

Cheers,

Hugh

kyrill · « **Reply #23 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 11:59 am »

OK, i studied a bit more on this new path ( sigh) and come to the conclusion ( in concept) that in order to use the PC hdd as music database, is best served with the USB out and bypass completely the internal audio, spdif out parts.

Then you need a not unexpensive

you only need a pc, the off-ramp and a good DAC Transport is out of the musical chain in listening in real time

you need EAC to rip yr cd to the hdd.I belief this is a qualitive better approach than the squeeze box

See http://www.empiricalaudio.com/frComputer_Audio.html#USB%20Off-Ramp

Hugh dear Hugh
is your "perfect" PWS also in kit form available ( diff voltages)? will it benefit the Aksa's or LF's too or could you not make a pws on request for instance for the Altmann DAC 12 V 100 millivolts or + and-15V xx mv for the DEQX or the above USB/Spdif converter? Or any other high end apparatus that begs for a "perfect" power supply?

PSP · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 04:13 pm »

EchiDna,
I bought Jim Hagerman's UagUSB (half kit is $39, parts ~ $70) http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html, intending to go:

Mac G4 (iTunes) --> UagUSB --> Art DI/O --> TLP/N for my bedroom system, since the Mac is in the bedroom.

As usual, I have too many audio projects on my bench, but I really should get to this one soon! / Peter

tl1000sv · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 07:22 pm »

Holy cow, $1000 for a digital out? A $75 M-Audio card that supports ASIO will deliver exactly the same thing.

ASIO bypasses all the Windows crap, DSP etc and just sends the raw bitstream from the audio file to the DAC. Foobar, J River and a lot of other media players support ASIO output.

Alternatively, look for a DAC with a USB input.

Tim

kyrill · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 07:41 pm »

yes pricey very pricey

they even need the m audio driver software for it to work.. So they are very aware of the existince of M audio cards and what they do..

a very high precision clock is one of the things inside but i got yr point..

i have a M-audio 2496 of 5 years ago but i assume a standard clock in it, like anyone else did that time
the thing is , does the the 75 $ m-audio card have a precision clock? the precision of the clock is key nowadays in all digital high end gear

hm they still sell the 2496. will it really be a good alernative?

AKSA · « **Reply #27 on:** 27 Jul 2007, 10:50 pm »

Kyrill,

TL is absolutely right, from what I understand.

I will ask Tinker (aka Ben) to look at it, but the clock is pivotal because that's where most of the jitter is created. Jitter is king; fix that, and it's fine.

The software quality, Windows et al, is not the problem; it's a hardware thing. I do agree that the sound card should be avoided if possible, because its onboard DAC and integrated clock is crummy, but the SB has a very acceptable DAC and clock inside it and the system is a reclocking one, so the jitter in the datastream from the PC is not an issue at all.

Cheers,

Hugh

EchiDna · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Jul 2007, 06:17 am »

PSP - yeah that's another of those I've considered... sigh... what to do, limited $$, unlimited possible projects!

Kyrill, did you realise the Empirical Audio is an M-Audio Transit (USB DAC) that has been seriously modded??

EchiDna · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Jul 2007, 06:37 am »

Quote from: AKSA on 27 Jul 2007, 10:50 pm

....The software quality, Windows et al, is not the problem; it's a hardware thing.....

Hugh, i assume you mean the above is relevant when you don't use a soundcard and use a squeezebox or similar networked device?

In my experience it is very important when you do use the PC as a player (either with a sound card or with a USB DAC)....

Absolutely, Glen, I meant only when you use an external DAC of course.

kyrill · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Jul 2007, 08:58 am »

PsP , Echi
the HagUsb seems to have the same function as the OffRamp, but to bypass "windows soundsystem" altogether with ASIO is one of the main properties of the Maudio heart in it (ha i did not know, thx Echi)
So, can the UagUsb also work under ASIO? i found out it can

EchiDna · « **Reply #31 on:** 28 Jul 2007, 12:47 pm »

yeah it can...

use foobar or winamp with an ASIO out driver (there are a couple of different ones about)....

kill that blardy windows K-mixer rubbish!!

kyrill · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 Aug 2007, 08:50 am »

Trends Audio has a very nice USB-->S/PDIF out

yes this is more aimed at the music listener and looks promising. DOnt use it as a dac though. There are better dacs outside and they are still developing their own dedicated dac.
http://www.audiomagus.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=25&flypage=shop.flypage_modern&product_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

i researched the net a bit and met

http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html but hm taking power from the usb port, is real contaminated power although the unit filters it
But the design is not out for the best Very cheap too and nothing on their site suggests aiming for the best sound. But this device will happily with the help of the PC takes the sound 2 jumps in quality up probably more from an average mainstream Cd player.

My choice for the moment is even more economical than this one, but the concept IS to find the best sound ( within reasonable cost) and has I2S out ( very handy to build the USB converter inside your dedicated DAC and bypass the jitter inducing S/PDIF link) See:

http://diyparadise.com/usb.html

Much much better as an USB dac, but incomparably more expensive comes from Serbia.: "The Model" aiming at state of the art.
now a more afffordable dac based on their top model transparent and musical

these ppl have new products and very friendly prices for DI now
see: http://www.audialonline.com/newsletters/03/
Serbia also is the creator of probably the best ribbon tweeter. It leaves Raven and the Chinese Aurum Cantus in the dust. http://www.raalribbon.com/aboutus.htm

A more expensive alternative to the Hagtech is "the model" from Serbia in Europe. Almost a rogue state but a fast developing super high end audio industry is coming up.

http://www.audialonline.com/model/

Then there are many under 1000 $ USB dacs especially the NOS dacs are promising.
A very good and with a very high Quality/price Ratio USB dac comes from a young enthusiastic young man who is not yet commercially thinking out of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
for the moment this my choice

http://diyparadise.com/monica3.html
this is not the normal Monica with 0.3V out but Monica + linestage on one pcb and the new III version

Addition
I met this site , and this is a real tweaker using high precision Tent clocks. I use a tent clock in my TEAC transport, so this guy (within reasonable cost) is out for the best, including tips for BG or boutique film caps His kits are very cheap compared to his "perfectionist " approach and the "Rolls Royce"quality of topology and pcb quality

USB to I2S Converter 49€
al his kits the SMD parts are pre-soldered by a professional bureau You only have to assemble and solder the "classique" parts

you know, those "big" caps and resistors. And his musical reference is the openness and body of 3D tube sound
Doede made S'PDIF dacs before he was converted to USB DACS ((1543 based and stackable up until 60 (!) dac chips in a so called tower configuration)
http://www.dddac.de/ddsales-pre-config.htm

his comments about USB "sound":
" All relatively normal improvement so what about the USB Interface ??? Well, now we are talking a completely different story !!!!! ------------------>

The sound of a bit copied CD sound unbelievable "clean". The soundstage goes much deeper and wider, you can really "look through" the whole sound stage. For example, listening to a choir, I could identify individual line up where with SPDIF this was diffuse..... Dynamics and tonal balance do not change, it is really the extreme transparency of the stereo image.....

This is so good, I already bought a fan less PC, a 8" touch screen and a USB disk drive. This will turn in the coming time into my Music Server !!!! (I will report when it is ready

http://www.dddac.de/ is a nice read, for the serious high end listener DIY

A best alternative for "the model" or any above suggestions, is the 1500 US $ "pace car" a well thought out design ( still in last developing phase is my impression) it is a high precision reclocker which accepts S/pdif and reclocks it to a level that the jitter of the source becomes irrelevant:
"The Pace-Car is a very flexible architecture reclocker that can be used with USB, Wireless
audio servers, some PCI cards and even Transports. We like to call it the "Swiss Army
Knife" of reclockers. The Pace-Car reduces the jitter from these streaming audio devices
to inaudible levels."
In that case what sounds better SB, Cd transport or PC transport becomes an obsolete question. They all sound just as good as the main factor for the perceived sounding differences: the jitter is practically out of the equitation. See:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/frPace-Car.html

Then it becomes a matter of convenience. However it does not have a USB inut. But any USB S/PDIF converter will do. The trend , the Hagtech or the very expensive converter of empiricalaudio themselves:

It has been designed with very low jitter in mind, so preceding the Pace-Car would be massive overkill
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/frComputer_Audio.html#Off-Ramp%20I2S

Still important is to have a different ASIO driver and NOT the free Asio4all driver as it was not designed for the general public's but for studios and their typical multimachine problems. You want real high end sound from USB for yr single DAC use the usb-audio driver from www.usb-audio.com
For instance: ""Unlike ASIO2KS and ASIO4ALL, which are wrappers for KS, the usb-audio driver talks directly to the hardware completely bypassing the OS audio stack." XEnithon, and
And from the Hagtech weblog:

"Tried out the www.usb-audio.com driver for windows. It's the alternative to ASIO4ALL... Wow, best sound I've had yet. Seems to be the real thing. No goofy wrappers and dlls and other wierd stuff. Just a new usbaudio.sys for windows... Now it is guaranteed to bypass kmixer and all that other crap."

"Yep, this is it. Best sound yet. The www.usb-audio.com driver for xp is the best yet. This is the way it should have been done in the first place. I am
now using latest foobar2000 with this usb_asio driver from Germany. No wierdness, no games, just straight unmodified 16 bit data sent out USB port.
Listening here with a CHIME connected to an OBOE (for headphone output). Best playback yet from CD. Very clean and open." with thx to WGH
The driver to use costs 59 €

http://www.usb-audio.com/

Readings
a good and easy read is:
http://www.affordableaudio.org/PCAudioBasics.pdf BASIC guide to PC AUDIO
http://diyparadise.com/computer_audio.html

99% on the net recommends Foobar for playing lossless cd's, but Winamp has an asio plugin as well
http://www.winamp.com/plugins/download/156466

Also Jriver Media Center ,replacing windows MP with good net FB synergises with Asio
http://www.jrmediacenter.com/newinMC12.html

Build your own USB Audio Streaming Server for Livingroom use:
http://www.dddac.de/op09.htm

a very thorough guide but not so easy to read is
how to convert a PC into a music server( from "sics" try to find his better name) :The Art of building Computer Transports
Version 0.3
~~http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/theartofbuildingcomputertransports/The%20art%20of%20building%20Computer%20Transports.pdf~~
http://imageevent.com/cics/v03theartofbuildingcomputertrnsp

use of EAC and lossless (FLAC) audio format, very visual guide

http://www.carltonbale.com/project/cd-audio-extraction/

another EAC guide also with nice pictures:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?EACInstall

TIP 1
I found if you copy your lossless music files to a memory card, I use a Scandisk 1 gig card, and you play Winamp or Foobar ( of course with ASIO) directly from the memory card instead from the hdd, the sound is even more stable and transparent. I hear subtle echoes and voices within voices i never heard before

TIP 2
from enjoy themusic.com
When converting approximately 750MB of audio data to MP3, file size is reduced to roughly 1/3rd. WAV and EAC are the same as the originals on CD
FLAC is about half. Yet FLAC sounds way better than WAV and EAC. It might have something to do with the software I used to play back FLAC. FLAC -- Free Lossless Audio Codec -- is basically encoded WAV in a lossless but compressed file. I used Amadeus II for playback. Even when the Sound Characteristics were set to the original 16-bit/44.1kHz, the FLAC playback outperformed WAV and EAC with decisively more mellowness and finesse. At times, I even might say that it outperformed the original CD playback on the PowerBook.

EchiDna · « **Reply #33 on:** 20 Aug 2007, 12:48 pm »

kyrill,
I'm impressed, you've certainly done your research!!

I must go visit Yeo some day... he is afterall only 4 hours drive away from me in KL

kyrill · « **Reply #34 on:** 20 Aug 2007, 02:29 pm »

Hi Echi

I envy you
being where you are

the palm trees, the best sateh's, loong hot sand beaches ( Malaysia )
wonderful real Chinese good food
the nice warm weather, the warm rains and thunderstorms
and the most beautiful woman i have ever met was a Singaporean
She took the best of 3 brands:
1) the fine fragile build from the City Chinese
2) the colour from the Malaysian
3) the long legs from English women
and her eyes ooh erghh aa

Of course all this and better in Australia

AKSA · « **Reply #35 on:** 20 Aug 2007, 11:26 pm »

Kyrill,

That's some real purdy audio porn you've shown us there - thank you!

I share with you the fascination of the Orient - but I fear it is not as it seems - nothing ever is....... even the women!

Ah, back to the workbench, much to do, transistors to climb, diodes to cross.......

Cheers,

Hugh

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #36 on:** 21 Aug 2007, 06:09 pm »

Hugh,

Do you mind making Kyrill's research he posted a "Sticky." It's very well done

Best,
Anand.

kyrill · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 Sep 2007, 01:41 pm »

I have ordered Doedde's USBto I2S conversion card and can have it any moment now.
I will let that build in my DEQX and bypass the S/PDIF
My next mod is to replace the built in oversampling dacs for NOS dacs connected wiith I2S and sharing a masterclock

I have played a bit with USB-Monica DAC with the built in "preamp" and listen to the PC.
O boy it is not only clean or transparent but MUSICAL. I find musical much more important. It never fatigues, but without the other high end properties, like transparency tone etc, it gets boring after a while. Not Monica.
You can mod her ( Hugh's new precious PWS) better end caps or better no end caps if your preamp or poweramp has already a good input cap.

So PC or a music server is the unavoidable way to go unless you have a serious good CD transport or CDP

I added to my earlier posted "list" of findings a MAC (tip 2) for better listening

kyrill · « **Reply #38 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 01:37 pm »

added affordableaudio PCAudioBasics guide
and The Art of building Computer Transports
Version 0.3 lots of updates in this version .3

gerado · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 Sep 2007, 05:01 am »

Kyrill that's great research
very good to temp a start

which do you think sounds the best out of all those- is the Monica the one(though out of stock)
the Monica needs a screen obviously near by to make selections , though the SB. doesn't?

I note you are also using a DEQX. I am pricing one at the moment though I have not heard it I want one.
How do you find the sound and secondly how easy is it to set up. I suspect if you have the pre amp version you are actively crossing over and multiamping?