SP 1.7

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Fingers

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SP 1.7
« on: 15 Jun 2005, 01:57 am »
Gidday guys,

I am in the hunt for a pre-processor........the SP 1.7 looks likea great unit....

would love to here from some owners about set up.....

I already have some Amps, so Unfortunately it will be a messy set up, and the SP 1.7 will have its work cut out for it......

I have an Integrated 2 ch Electrocompaniet ECI-1 100 watt

and

a plinius SA100 2 ch power amp

and there will be a third Classe amp as well........!



Will the SP 1.7 be able to juggle 3 different amps with different power level's......different length signal runs as one amp is Integrated...etc etc.

Will it be able to adjust the output levels of all signals so that the amps work together at the appropriate volumes....(like an auto set up function with a microphone)......and does it automatically adjust for lip sync and signal delay functions......?


How old is the 1.7....have there been many upgrades......I will have to buy a used unit, so what should i be on the look out for as far as upgrades go etc etc.....


and lastly....I am in Australia....so need a unit that works on power supply being 50 hertz and 240 volts.......are overseas units that currently operate on 110 volts easy to adjust.....some manufactures just have a switch somewhere.......?




cheers.

Fingers.

KJ

SP 1.7
« Reply #1 on: 15 Jun 2005, 02:26 am »
G'day Fingers!

Quote
the SP 1.7 looks likea great unit

I don't personally own one, but I've heard it in multiple systems many times over.  Soundwise, it is a very nice unit with a fair amount of competition in it's price range.  Hopefully, some owners can answer your technical questions.

Quote
How old is the 1.7....have there been many upgrades......I will have to buy a used unit, so what should i be on the look out for as far as upgrades go etc etc.

I believe it came out in 2002.  Upgrades have been far and few between (if any).  There have been numerous discussions on desired future upgrades as mentioned in this thread.

Good luck and welcome to AC!

-KJ

nicolasb

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Re: SP 1.7
« Reply #2 on: 15 Jun 2005, 10:04 am »
I'm nothing to do with Bryston, but I do own an SP1.7, so let's see if I can answer some of your questions.

As you may have gathered, there is is a significant upgrade to the SP1.7 due in the next few months, which will change the answers to some of your questions. Let me start by giving you the answers as of the current model, and then discuss the upgraded version at the end.

Quote from: Fingers
Will the SP 1.7 be able to juggle 3 different amps with different power level's......different length signal runs as one amp is Integrated...etc etc.

There is independent volume adjustment for each channel. I think using an integrated amp on one channel and power amps on others is less than ideal (unless the integrated has a way of bypassing the pre-amp stage). It will work, but it may not be very comfortable.

Quote
Will it be able to adjust the output levels of all signals so that the amps work together at the appropriate volumes....

Yes.
Quote
(like an auto set up function with a microphone)......

No, you have to set the levels manually using a sound meter.

Quote
and does it automatically adjust for lip sync and signal delay functions......?

There is no lip-synch delay function as such. You can introduce small delays on a channel-by-channel basis, but this is only designed to compensate for the speakers being different distances from the listening position. The sort of longer, global delay that is designed to compensate for video deinterlacing is not possible.

Quote
How old is the 1.7....

The design is about 3 years old, I believe. It's based on Bryston's previous processor, The SP1. (The change from SP1 to SP1.7 was fairly big, though - the addition of two channels, and a change in both DSP and DACS).

Quote
and have there been many upgrades......

Hardware-wise there haven't been any upgrades since the SP1.7 came out. There have been several software upgrades. These have been distributed on EPROM chips, and fitting them involves opening up the case and plugging and unplugging chips - something that many users can do for themselves, but, if you're nervous, you might want to get a dealer to do for you. Software upgrades have historically been free of charge for minor upgrades and chargeable for major ones (but not fantastically expensive - $50 US + postage perhaps).

Quote
and I will have to buy a used unit, so what should i be on the look out for as far as upgrades go etc etc.....

Note that any major upgrade may require the processor to shipped to Canada and back to achieve. It's possible that Bryston's Australian distributor (if they have one) would be able to install an upgrade - it depends.

Quote
and lastly....I am in Australia....so need a unit that works on power supply being 50 hertz and 240 volts.......are overseas units that currently operate on 110 volts easy to adjust.....some manufactures just have a switch somewhere.......?

Bryston units are fixed voltage. Most of them are designed to run at 115V, some (for the overseas market) are designed to run at 230V. Any unit originally sold in Australia will (I imagine) be compatible with the Australian mains supply. If you import an american unit then it won't be. I imagine Bryston's Australian distributor (if there is one) would be able to modify it for you (this is certainly the case with their British distributor, PMC) but this would be chargeable.

You could perhaps try importing a British model, but that would probably be prohibitively expensive.

You might want to check what the local guarantee policy is as regards imported devices.

Now, as regards the forthcoming upgrade, we don't know exactly when it is due. Bryston originally said some time this Spring - but it's looking increasingly unlikely that they'll meet that deadline! :)

We also don't know exactly what the upgrade will include. We know that the DSP is being upgraded to the much more powerful Aureus chip (made by Texas Instruments) but we don't yet know what new software features will be included.

I think there is a resonably good chance that there will be the facility for a lip-synch delay with the new chip. I think we can also count on Dolby PLIIx. Beyond that it's harder to say. It would be nice to think that it will become possible to set independent cross-over frequencies for each channel. There's a chance we may get Dolby Headphone output (although only as a line-level signal, I can't seem them adding a full headphone stage). There's a small chance we might get some sort of EQ capability, but James T has come down pretty strongly against EQ in the past, so don't get your hopes up.

There is also a possiblity that software updates will become downloadable (and installable from a PC via the RS232 port) rather than requiring EPROM chips to be physically pushed in and out.

The upgrade is likely to be quite expensive (certainly several hundred US dollars, maybe even $1000) and possibly a lot more for overseas customers if they have to have the unit shipped back to Bryston's factory in Canada. (That happened with the upgrade from SP1 to SP1.7. It may not happen this time round. Fingers crossed.)

georgev

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SP 1.7
« Reply #3 on: 15 Jun 2005, 03:08 pm »
Nicolasb did a great job of answering your questions.  The only thing I would add is that, the SP1.7 really sets itself apart from the competition in by-pass mode.  If you want a HT system that does not compromise 2-channel music then the SP1.7 is your only option in this price range.

nicolasb

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SP 1.7
« Reply #4 on: 15 Jun 2005, 04:43 pm »
Quote from: georgev
The only thing I would add is that, the SP1.7 really sets itself apart from the competition in by-pass mode.  If you want a HT system that does not compromise 2-channel music then the SP1.7 is your only option in this price range.

I would agree with the first half of that, but I'm not sure I'd agree with the second half. :)

There are other processors in approximately that price range which are capable of rivalling Bryston's if you are using the processor to do the digital-to-analogue conversion. Bryston pulls some way ahead of the others if you want to take an analogue signal from a CD player and use the processor simply as a stereo pre-amp. The SP1.7 certainly does a better job as an analogue pre-amp than any other processor I've listened to, which includes the Lexicon MC-12B. But then again, you could just actually buy a dedicated stereo pre-amp instead - that'd be better still. :)  (And the MC12B using its own DACs is truly formidable).

The only area where the SP1.7 definitively kills the opposition (IMO) is when you use it as a 5.1-channel pre-amplifier, coupled to something like a DVD-Audio player. There are very few 5- or 6-channel pre-amps around.  However, eventually the industry will get its act together enough to have an HDMI digital audio interface on processors as standard so that the processor can do D/A conversion on DVD-Audio tracks as well. There are already a couple of proprietary systems like this based on Firewire (Pioneer) or MHR Smartlink (Meridian).

As things stand at the moment, the SP1.7 has excellent analogue performance, and good neutrality, but is a little bit behind the competition on the digital side of things. The forthcoming DSP upgrade should go some way towards rectifying that, but we don't know how far.

thomaspf

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SP 1.7
« Reply #5 on: 15 Jun 2005, 06:40 pm »
As far as surround sound receivers go the SP1.7 is a great unit but I would not position it on parity with dedicated 2channel units.

BP26DA
Frequency Response: 20Hz-20kHz +/- .1dB
Distortion: < 0.002%, 20Hz-20kHz
Signal to Noise Ratio: > 100dB

SP1.7
Frequency Response: 20Hz to 20kHz +/- 0.25 dB
THD+Noise: Less than 0.006% in DSP modes; Less than 0.0025% in Bypass mode 20Hz to 20kHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 105dB in DSP Modes; 110dB in 2ch Bypass Mode


Just to calibrate this performance here is what you could get for spending big bucks on a dedicated 2-channel DAC with a master clock. UA2192 also with discrete class A outputs

Dynamic range (measured with -60dBFS = -38dBu output at 1kHz 122dB (A-weighted), 119dB (unweighted)

Frequency response (relative to 1kHz):
+- 0.03dB, 10Hz to 20kHz @ Fs = 44.1kHz
+- 0.04dB, 10Hz to 20kHz @ Fs = 96kHz

Phase response: <0.5 degrees, 10Hz to 1kHz -10 degrees at 20kHz
Residual noise (200Hz-20kHz): < -145dBFS (-123dBu)
THD+N (measured at 1kHz): -98dB, with +4dBu output -103dB, with -10dBu output

This unit switches all settings only manual and does not have a volume control...

Having said this I have been pretty happy with my SP1.7 and get a lot of convenience from having a single unit that drives both my 2-channel and surround needs.

Cheers

    Thomas

Adz523

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SP 1.7
« Reply #6 on: 16 Jun 2005, 12:10 am »
Let me add my two cents.
1. It is truly an underrated HT processor.  I disagree with some that say its just very good or a good complement to those that want a great preamp in the same unit - I've heard others at its price point (including my two previous processors) and higher prices and I think the 1.7 sounds cleaner in the front three for sure which is maybe offset a bit by a slightly weaker steering, but it was hard for me to judge that.  

2. While I love the 1.7, I am truly frustrated by the lack of the upgrade.  Excitement drives the frustration.  Unfortunately, I have a propensity towards upgraditis and if I demo something that has what I want and it sounds better, I would probably go for it.  For example, my buddy just became a Halo dealer and they just upgraded their processor -- I'd love to demo it in my home and I may get my chance!

Fingers

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SP 1.7
« Reply #7 on: 16 Jun 2005, 12:22 am »
thanks guys.......really informative......looks like I have my work cut out for me working out what to do....

I am Really keen to get a dedicated 2 ch pre-amp anyway........the NOH from Bent Audio, or the new toy that john is currently working on.....

So really all I will be needing is Home Theatre processing.......and SACD etc......!


I was going to originally settle for the NAD T163 pre-pro or the Rotel RSP1068......then thought I would venture up to the bugger Rotel RSP1098.....and then wonderred if there was something better again.....hence looking at the SP1.7.....


Any other suggestions welcomed........!.... :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:




cheers..........Fingers.

KJ

SP 1.7
« Reply #8 on: 16 Jun 2005, 01:04 am »
Quote from: fingers
I was going to originally settle for the NAD T163 pre-pro or the Rotel RSP1068......then thought I would venture up to the bugger Rotel RSP1098.....and then wonderred if there was something better again.....hence looking at the SP1.7.....

Any other suggestions welcomed

Others I can think of include the Arcam AV8, Anthem D1, Theta Casablanca III, and the Outlaw 950 (soon to be replaced with the 990).  I've heard the Bryston and Arcam units which I believe to be superior sounding to the Rotel.  Can't speak to the other three I mentioned as I have not heard them in person.  Some are similarly priced whereas the others are on the opposite ends of the price spectrum.  Whichever way you go, I don't think you'd be disappointed with a SP1.7.

-KJ

nicolasb

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SP 1.7
« Reply #9 on: 16 Jun 2005, 08:58 am »
Quote
Others I can think of include the Arcam AV8, Anthem D1, Theta Casablanca III, and the Outlaw 950 (soon to be replaced with the 990). I've heard the Bryston and Arcam units which I believe to be superior sounding to the Rotel.

Theta Casa Bllanca III, huh? I think that might be a little bit out of his price bracket. :) If not then by all means throw in the Lexicon MC-12B, Meridian 861, Linn Kisto and Mark Levinson No. 40 while you're at it. :)

The SP1.7 is a considerable step up from the Arcam AV8 in sound quality terms.

Other marginally more affordable models that might be worth checking out are the Parasound Halo C2, Meridian G68, Tag McLaren AV32R (only the dual-SHARC version is worth bothering with), and the Lexicon MC-8 or MC-4.

Quote
1. It is truly an underrated HT processor. I disagree with some that say its just very good or a good complement to those that want a great preamp in the same unit - I've heard others at its price point (including my two previous processors) and higher prices and I think the 1.7 sounds cleaner in the front three for sure which is maybe offset a bit by a slightly weaker steering, but it was hard for me to judge that.

I'd agree with that assessment. It's not on a par with the MC-12B, but the MC-12B costs twice the price, so you wouldn't expect it to be. Compared to something like the dual-SHARC Tag McLaren device, the SP1.7 is clearer in the front channels, but slightly woolier in the rears. I'm hoping that the new DSP will improve the steering and bass management to Tag McLaren/Lexicon/Meridian levels. We'll see.

It has to be said that the SP1.7 is a bit short on "features" if this matters to you. The Arcam AV8, for example, has a very high-quality video switcher built in (good enough to switch a 1080p high-definition signal with no loss of quality). With Bryston, if you want switching or an on-screen display, you have to shell out for the SPV1 upgrade, which isn't exactly cheap. Of course, if you don't want video switching, this won't matter.

To be honest, I actually wouldn't buy an SP1.7 now if I were buying a new processor - I'd buy something that has a room EQ system (e.g. Tag McLaren, Meridian, Lexicon). But, again, this is something whose usefulness will vary from case to case, and, if you're buying second hand, that limits your options a bit.

KJ

SP 1.7
« Reply #10 on: 16 Jun 2005, 12:20 pm »
Quote from: nicolasb
I think that might be a little bit out of his price bracket.

Given that the SP1.7 is more than twice the price of the Rotel RSP-1068, I figured it would be best to let him decide what his price range should be.  Perhaps price isn't an issue for him?  I'm merely suggesting other options as requested.

Quote from: nicholasb
The SP1.7 is a considerable step up from the Arcam AV8 in sound quality terms.

Can you share more insight on this?  I've listened to both in the same system and would be interested on what brought you to this conclusion.

-KJ

nicolasb

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SP 1.7
« Reply #11 on: 16 Jun 2005, 03:21 pm »
Quote from: KJ
Quote from: nicolasb
The SP1.7 is a considerable step up from the Arcam AV8 in sound quality terms.

Can you share more insight on this?  I've listened to both in the same system and would be interested on what brought you to this conclusion.

Erm... it's just better.  :mrgreen:

Given that I'm trying to remember a demo from a couple of years ago, it's hard to remember fine details; but I seem to recall that the SP1.7 sounded generally clearer - neutral, transparent, undistorted - while the AV8 had a rough quality to it - not harsh or distorted, exactly, but beginning to head in that direction.

Put it this way: I now use an Arcam FMJ DV27A DVD player for CD playback, but until recently I was using the older DV27 model. I thought the DV27 sounded very slightly nicer playing through my SP1.7 in bypass mode than it did using the processor's DACs, but I really had to think about it to decide which I preferred. With the Arcam AV8 the same player sounds much better playing with the AV8 in bypass mode than it does with the processor's DACs. The rough quality is particularly noticeable with classical music (i.e. acoustic instruments).

(This is odd, in a way, because the Arcam player and processor use the same DACs! Just goes to show the importance of the surrounding circuitry.)

Here in the UK the AV8 is at quite an interesting price point. It retails for £3000 while the SP1.7 sells for £4725. They are somewhat similar philosophically - the AV8 also has a very good analogue bypass (though not as good as the SP1.7's). Whether the SP1.7 is really worth that much more money than the AV8 in this country is rather questionable, particularly if you need any of the AV8's other features (e.g. video switching).

In america, of course, the pricing situation is very different, because Arcam is a British company and Bryston a Canadian one.

Adz523

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SP 1.7
« Reply #12 on: 16 Jun 2005, 06:25 pm »
WOW! "SP1.7 sells for £4725"  

In USD, that's 8,600.   Pays to buy it here, ship it, and pay to have it made compatible.    Street Price in the U.S. is a tad over 3k.

Fingers

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SP 1.7
« Reply #13 on: 16 Jun 2005, 10:19 pm »
In Australia, the 1.7 runs at approx $9,000

the Arcam AV8 also runs around approx $9,000

the Rotel 1098....is around......$4,000

Obviously talking cash deals etc etc, you would expect a street price at approx 10 - 15% reductions.......!

Fingers.

thomaspf

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SP 1.7
« Reply #14 on: 17 Jun 2005, 03:07 am »
One of the big selling point on the SP1.7 for me was the lack of features. I wanted pure audio since my video is handled by a computer.

For straight 5.1/7.1 combined with pure 2-channel mode as a DAC you can virtually set the unit up in 10min and you will not have to go back to the manual.

It is very intuitive.


Cheers

    thomas

thedeskE

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SP 1.7
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jun 2005, 08:20 pm »
I agree with thomaspf - the bare nature of the unit is what makes it unique in the world of `Everything but the kitchen sink' pre pros and receivers being made today.

PL2X would be nice, and perhaps a little improvement in a few areas, but the minimal approach of the 1.7 is my idea of a perfect pre pro.

Hope they keep the new version simple. Shortest path to the music and soundtrack is best.

E

Adz523

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SP 1.7
« Reply #16 on: 18 Jun 2005, 10:56 pm »
Quote from: thedeskE
I agree with thomaspf - the bare nature of the unit is what makes it unique in the world of `Everything but the kitchen sink' pre pros and receivers being made today.

PL2X would be nice, and perhaps a little improvement in a few areas, but the minimal approach of the 1.7 is my idea of a perfect pre pro.

Hope they keep the new version simple. Shortest path to the music and soundtrack is best.

E


Agree with all that for sure and improving on technology but still keeping it simple should never be viewed as a bad thing; for instance a more powerful DSP and better steering in the surrounds will only make the 1.7 that much better.   Lets take "unique" (as you put it) to the next level.

caleb

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SP 1.7
« Reply #17 on: 1 Jul 2005, 06:20 am »
I have two 7B SST monoblocks driving my front B&W802's.

I have just upgraded my processor to a TAG AV32 Dual which has room equalisation.

I cannot tell you what a difference this has made to my sound, pareticularly in the bass region from 20 to 200Hz.

I hope when Bryston bring out the new version of the SP1.7 that they include some kind of Room equalisation - it really is a great feature.

nicolasb

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SP 1.7
« Reply #18 on: 1 Jul 2005, 10:29 am »
Quote from: caleb
I have just upgraded my processor to a TAG AV32 Dual which has room equalisation.

I cannot tell you what a difference this has made to my sound, pareticularly in the bass region from 20 to 200Hz.

I hope when Bryston bring out the new version of the SP1.7 that they include some kind of Room equalisation - it really is a great feature.

James Tanner has repeatedly stated that the SP1.7 will never have any kind of room EQ.  :(   But some of us are engaged in an ongoing campaign to get him to change his mind....

For example:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17241

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6591

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=5070&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=3881

Levi

SP 1.7
« Reply #19 on: 1 Jul 2005, 03:27 pm »
Quote from: caleb
I have two 7B SST monoblocks driving my front B&W802's.

I have just upgraded my processor to a TAG AV32 Dual which has room equalisation.

I cannot tell you what a difference this has made to my sound, pareticularly in the bass region from 20 to 200Hz.

I hope when Bryston bring out the new version of the SP1.7 that they include some kind of Room equalisation - it really is a great feature.


I am curious, how does the SP1.7 compared to the TAG AV32 in 2ch bypass mode?

Levi