[chadh]

There are much more effective and economical ways to add bass to any B200 based OB.

John,

What's your favorite solution?

Chad

[Wind Chaser]

John,

I can appreciate the rationality of what you are saying.  It’s just that these “reports to the contrary” and “outrageous claims of extension” I find so annoying that I have to investigate them for myself.  I pretty much expect to be disappointed and hear an emphatic “I told you!”  However there’s no experience quite like putting ones hand on a hot stove for confirmation.  With so many making the same claim I have to do this thing.  If nothing at all, I’ll sure learn more about who is who around here and who the hell knows what they are talking about.


John (in Canada)

[-Richard-]

"Many of the people talking about adding bass using a 2nd B200 are the same ones
who previously made outrageous claims of extension and nice full bass with a single
B200 on their flat baffles. Ask yourself, if it was so good before, why are they looking
to add more bass?"

Spunky prose John in CR...no need for anyone to ask themselves however...
actually you or anyone can ask me...I am one of the chaps who made "outrageous
claims" about a single B200 who has added a second one to my simple OB
panels!

My Single Ended Pentode amp has tone controls...the bass tone control allows me
to apply simply EQ on my previously single B200 driver that rendered a very
satisfying bass to most of the music I listen to~

Dmason suggested I add the 2nd B200 and the bass filled in with a more powerful
and robust presence that I find deeply satisfying...actually it is the limit of what
my 1970's mobile home will tolerate before it would send lower frequency information
to the outside spaces in this mobile park...I would probably get myself in trouble
with more bass than this~

Why did I find the single B200 so satisfying before? Most of the music I listen to is
small scale...also a great deal of voice. The lower B200 driver is effectively reinforced
by being so close to the floor...meaning that it does what Dmason said it would do~

I am more interested in light than fire, John in CR...if it is so lovely down where you
live than how come you have such a outrageous chip on your shoulder?

Warm Regards ~Richard~

[Dmason]

Experience indeed is the best teacher. This is about music after all, so let your own ears be the deciding factor, Wind Chaser. An extra pair of these things is hardly a problem, worst case.

I am using EQ in the digital domain, a Rane RPM26 to lift up the response of the lower B200, and yes, it does do bass. There is plenty of jam in the B200 to provide bass, just that it might require a crowbar, in my case, my room, my system, and my ears. Having said that, used this way, I have not added the transmission line bass augmentation, and am quite happy.

 I have every respect for a preference toward use of mechanical means of harnessing the backwave, but for me, I am end-running a bunch of cuts in favor of a magic bullet, which accomplishes the same end, and a few other things such as Real Time Analysis, Room EQ, and such pro audio apps to home audio. If I had a personal assistant to do the cuts and all the joinery I would have the Joint Chiefs built by now. I love those things.

It is ALL about horses for courses, and having tried it both ways, personally I am not backing off of using TWO drivers per side. especially with the added power available to me with the Signature 30's arrival: it sounds really good. To me.

[-Richard-]

Hi John/Wind Chaser,

"If nothing at all, I’ll sure learn more about who is who around here and who the hell knows what they are talking about."

Perhaps it is not that simple...my musical tastes are also rather "far ranging"
just as John in CR characterized himself...but I do not like powerful bass...
Deb especially finds it utterly artificial sounding...we both listen to music hours
every day because we both work at home (on the mac)...so I am especially
sensitive to Deb's "sense" of what is musical to her~

I am not suggesting that anyone who loves to hear the powerful bass that is actually
there on the recording is experiencing an artificial musical experience...that would
be silly!!! If your house can take the potential of full bass and your ears can stand
the effect...I imagine it would be a wonderful, perhaps even a thrilling experience!!!

I don't need it but that is me and I humbly bow to the more rigorous and
demanding music lovers on AC who want the full spectrum of what is on their
CD's and will do whatever they have to fulfill their expectations~

So it is not merely a matter of who is right and who is wrong...one must also factor
in ones musical tastes and ones expectations...I am more than willing to admit
that John in CR's demands for a fully fleshed out musical spectrum would more
likely fit most audio enthusiasts idea of what a good system should sound like
than my idea...for example~

I like John in CR...his spunkiness matches my own inner energy (we are more
alike than not) and his insistence on paying attention to science is admireable~

I am deeply grateful for this forum...for AC...and for Dmason's constant, honest
and well-intentioned presence on this thread...there is a great deal to learn here...
and I am thrilled to be able to learn from everybody~

It is a matter of understanding each one of our contexts for listening to music...
our needs and our expectations...if we assume anything about another AC
member we begin to slid down a slippery slope that ends in conflict~

Warm Regards ~Richard~

[opnly bafld]

I can't possibly have bass down to 40hz with my skinny baffle 2 B200s biamped kit.
But I do, and if I want to go lower I have some good sounding subs one will go down to 27hz and another to <20hz.
So far with most music, I have not desired any more bass than what the 2 Visaton's deliver.
I could name several box speakers I have heard that have better "specs" with ported drivers with more x-max, blah, blah, blah, but will take my OB B200s every time.
Lin

[-Richard-]

Hi John in CR,

That's what I like about you...you have an intrepid investigators rigorous
approach to your speaker research...and thanks so much for your generous
sharing with us of your thinking and the fruits of your hands on explorations~

Several of your speaker innovations stand as important land marks in OB
development and I bet they sound as good as any speakers in the world!!!!

This thread is so packed with energy that if something new appears it has the
potential for immediate assimilation among the AC members who have the
spark of adventure in them~

One interesting observation: Vinnie's new Signature 30 amp fleshes out the bass
of the bottom B200 as good or better than my SEP with its robust tone controls...
this amp is so dynamic that you wonder if someone has slipped something into
your tea!!!!

Warm Regards ~Richard~

[opnly bafld]

JohninCR,
With 2 drivers per side, nobody that has heard my OBs, have described the bass as thin.
I like bass, if I hear speakers that don't do bass, I don't care what other things they do right, I don"t want to listen.
With any of my recordings, if bass is on the recording,(@40hz and above) it is in my room.
I have my drivers biamped, with seperate volume controls, so maybe I have done something wrong and really messed the sound up.
I am not someone famous that people would listen to and quote, but I am not an idiot either.
The bass I have is full, palpable and even somewhat visceral.
Lin

[-Richard-]

Hi opnly bafld,

Deb said almost exactly the same thing about my double B200 simple OB
panels about 10 minutes ago...both drivers driven by Vinnie's new Signature 30
amp with the bottom drivers cut off at 100Hz with a 10mH 18 gauge air core coil
inductor (-2 db according to Roger...so I am ordering the 15 gauge tomorrow= –1db)...

Several years ago scientists concluded that Bumble Bees cannot fly...this was not
merely idle speculation...they proved it with an encyclopedia length of calculations
and mathematical models~

Science pretends to KNOW...it marshals facts, theories and hypothesis in an attempt
to purchase from our reason the currency it needs to operate with certainty...so
obsessed does science become with its own processes that if often fails to look
at things as they really are...there is a disconnect with reality...and that is one of
the essential reasons the world is in the mess that we are in...AC it seems is not
immune from that phenomena!

Warm Regards ~Richard~

[JiffyBoob]

It would seem the only concensus on the matter of bass with 2 drivers exists only with the people who are using it. Including me. Maybe we could declare some sort of "quorum," that despite everything to the contrary, there is bass. And pigs can fly. I actually saw this. At a Pink Floyd concert. Dark Side of the Moon sounds pretty damn good on these. And that is supposed to be a genuine audiophile recording.

[opnly bafld]

Richard,
You should have Deb post sometime.
I have a 12mH 15 AWG steel laminate inductor = 80hz start.
I almost used a science reply also.
Science is a great thing, but us humans know VERY LITTLE about it.
When we think we know something about it, often we find we are wrong or someone years later does.
All I can say for now is, I love the truly fullrange sound of these speakers.
Thanks,
Lin

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering.... we are all running our OBs in different rooms.  I wonder to what degree room gain comes into the equation with regards to bass  

There are certain spots where I can either sit or move my OBs to where I seem to get really good bass, and spots where it is sucked out.  Luckily, it is my "man room" and I can put them anywhere I want  
Of course I'm not allowed to put Playboy pin-ups on the walls, but every married man can dream  

I didn't get time yesterday to try turning my OBs upside down, but hopefully later tonight.  The workload has been a little crazy here and I want more hours in the day so I can sit back and listen!

[opnly bafld]

Nice to hear from you again JiffyBoob, I heard you were busy.

Vinnie,
No matter where I move around in my room, the bass is solid, no hot or cold spots. I love it.
Lin

[Vinnie R.]

Nice to hear from you again JiffyBoob, I heard you were busy.

Vinnie,
No matter where I move around in my room, the bass is solid, no hot or cold spots. I love it.
Lin

Hi Lin,

Do you have pics of your OBs?  How many inches from the floor is the center of your bottom driver located?  How about the top one?  I'm just curious how they are positioned.  

I was going to try the LPF at around 70 or 80Hz when I try out 2 B200s.  
How are they blending together for you?


Welcome back, JiffyBoob!

[opnly bafld]

Hey Vinnie,
My baffles are easy to picture in your mind.
45"h x 20"w mdf, tilted back slightly, no wings.
The upper driver's center is 13" from the top and the bottom driver's center is 9" from the floor.
I think they blend very well.
I listened to one baffle, with a mono source, with and without the lower driver.
I could not detect any change in the soundstage or anything else.

[-Richard-]

Hi John in CR,

OK...I see your point...you believe that anyone using 2 B200's per baffle are not
getting the full spectrum of music that is possible on certain CD's...and that
not to get that full measure of what is possible is to miss something vital...
and that even if someone really likes what they are hearing...but are missing
that more "complete" musical picture...they are doing themselves a disservice...
and therefore if they suggest this (to you) simplistic approach to others...they
are doing them a disservice as well...because they are raising their expectations
which will not be met...that is your position ~

Concretizing your position has skewered your sense of BALANCE ~

Resistance translates directly to belligerence...and something in your nature
cannot resist pointing out to us barbarians the error of our ways...it is nice to be
right...but potentially it is just another ADDICTION...

One needs to be right all of the time...and that means that someone else must be
wrong at least part of the time ~

In the service of the addiction to be right all of the time science becomes a weapon...

And one finds themselves in continuous need to marshal their arguments
with increasing intensity...exponentially extrapolate that "positioning" to the
global scale and you can see why we are always at war in this unfortunate
earth at all times with a shifting "enemy" that we plug into our voracious need
to "prove" our right with might ~

Having said that I am entirely open to your suggestions for improving the performance
of OB implimentation and I look forward to your penetrating insights with keen interest ~

Warm Regards ~Richard~

[JiffyBoob]

John in CR

When I really want to hear 'Time,' it is on the Dark Stars in the same room. 4 X 15 inch woofers EQ'd to flat, with two B&W 15 inch subs just filling a touch of foundation, I think even you would approve. It sounds great, and Mason nailed it with this stuff, by distilling the Orion findings and doing his own thing by improv. Of course the 2 X B200 has less bass, doesn't mean it does the music any disservice at all. No one hearing this on their own would feel they got hosed on bad information folks. So John, relax. Pour yourself a daquiri and get over it. And thanks for the science.

[Wind Chaser]

I do feel that a large percentage of people will be disappointed with speakers that are 10db down at 40 or 50hz.

Personally I could live with that, but if we are talking about an extended void of bass all the way up to 1K, then that's a different story.  What I am hoping to achieve is reasonably balanced sound from 100Hz on up with out EQ.  There seems to be a number of people here who suggest that this is possible...  I guess I’ll have to wait and see.


John

[opnly bafld]

Vinnie,
Let me clarify my statement.
With no subs running, the bass sounds very smooth anywhere in front of or behind the speakers. The bass is down in level between and to the sides of each baffle. In the hallway from the living room to the back of the house, the bass is much, much louder.
I used test tones, a Boston Acoustics car stereo bass disc, as well as some music I actually like.
My baffles are 5+ feet from the front wall and 3 feet from the left side wall, the right side is open to the dining room.
Thanks,
Lin  

PS:   The bass was down in level considerably, one block(well maybe two) from my house

[chadh]

Let me see if I have this right.

1.  Lots of people who use B200s on OB (whether one or two pair) love the sound they get;

2.  Especially when using two pair of B200s on OB, lots of people find that frequencies around 40Hz are reproduced audibly;

3.  JohninCR presents arguments to suggest that 40Hz frquency signals will be reproduced with two pair of B200s on OB, but at something like -10dB in a best case scenario;

4.  If one applied -3db limits when quoting the frequency range of these OB speakers, the lower extremity of that range would likely be in excess of 100Hz; and

5.  Lots of people who use B200s on OB (JohninCR included) love the sound they get.  (Oh yeah...that was #1.)

Where's the problem?

So, JohninCR wants everyone to know that his favorite approach to speaker design is not flawless. Rather than bullying anyone into accepting that OB designs are perfect, he'd like everybody who might experiment with these designs to have some inkling of the trade-offs inherent in the exercise.  And yet, his commitment to the exercise is the most blatent statement that he believes the tradeoffs are worthwhile (at least until he, or someone else, finds effective methods for bass augmentation).

As far as endorsements go, John's seems pretty credible.  More credible than statements like "This is simply the most wonderful approach to speaker design ever, and anybody who doesn't agree must have been duped by the establishment, embracing elements of audiophilia that have no place in appreciation of music."  I feel much more interested in the whole idea, now.  Thanks for the perspective John.

Chad