[marklivia]

Also interested in a group buy. Who's gonna do it?  Mark

[-Richard-]

Hi Barfind,

As Dan originally pointed out...the out-of-box dipole sound
is what is so compelling here...

I had a friend over last night who is a professional musician
and composer and he thought the sound was extremely
open...he also noted the “thinness” of the overall presentation but
I pointed out to him that the drivers had less than 5 hours
total in actual playing time logged onto them...

Not an easy “concept” to grasp if one has never experienced the
burn-in on speakers...

I played my Fostex 207E boxed baffled speakers for him after and
he found that much more satisfying...but I heard the box!

Later when he left, I hooked up the B200 speakers again and although
aware of the lack of frequency fill in the lower octaves, I was relieved
to immerse myself once again in that “open” sound...that is where the
real magic lies...like opening a window into the sound space...that and
the unusual clarity...a getting-out-of-the-way clarity that makes you
forget about the speakers entirely and that lets the brain relax into the
music more easily...

The dynamics with my SEP tubed amp is rather incredible...the high
sensitivity of the B200’s and the hemp material (Dan thinks the Euro
description of “Manila” translates to hemp) of the cones allows the
instrumental timbres to quickly shake loose of their moorings giving
speed and pacing to the rhythmic drive when that is present in the
musical offerings...

Horns sound very convincing...a good indication that transients are
slicing through space with great speed and receding just as quickly...

I owned Maggie 1.6’s for 4 years...so I am very familiar with the dipole
sound...how it loads the room and interacts with the “air”...what we
seem to have here is a dipole speaker that has the added benefit of
a dynamic driver...the result is that the “throw” of the music is
communicated with tremendous immediacy and velocity...yet...
and here is an interesting aspect of the over-all sound...there
is a delicacy that places the B200 somewhere in the vicinity of
an electrostatic speaker...I suspect that is what Dan is experiencing
with his beautifully tuned digital amalgamations from Vinnie’s magical
offerings...

And yes Dan is quite right about the love affair the B200 has with the voice...
“intimacy” is the key word here...intimacy that allows the voice to float
seductively in the very space of your room...only 7 hours or so log-in
time so I will have to wait to see how the fill-in proceeds...and whether
or not I will have to spring for the Behringer EQ...something I would love
to avoid if possible...but I am keeping that option open...since Dan finds
that EQ’ing has a substantial impact on the B200’s ability
to resolve room interaction and flesh out the bass somewhat.

Hi Dan,

Good news about the smaller baffles...Deb would be thrilled if I
can thin out the baffles somewhat and still achieve the magic of
the B200’s...are you using EQ on these smaller baffle versions?
Are you still using the same offset specs for the drivers in relation
to the baffles front dimensions?

The Dark Star continues to evolve...

Warm regards -Richard-

[Dmason]

Hi Richard,

The small baffle was simply a cutting on the floor which I cut a hole into. Then I tacked it up onto a wall stud. Very audiophile! It sounds "nice," and promises that smaller baffles can be used. This is as far as I have taken it: a casual observation. The more burn in on the driver, the freer the suspension becomes, allowing it to vibrate --->more closely to its Fs, which with its mechanical specifications, is very good at. You will over coming days start to notice more and more downward reach in frequency response. to what extent in your case, I cannot comment on because I have not used the B200 with tube amps which have far less damping factor than digital amps. Having said that, the right combo, and the fact that your amp can easily, easily and optimally drive the essential midband (200-500Hz) and on up, might just put you over the top.

DEQ is not at all an essential tool here, just a very good tool. The fact that it can operate in the digital realm makes it useful, does no harm, and is out of the Less = More "loop." As the room becomes the enclosure, to my way of thinking, DEQ becomes even more useful because the speaker enclosure and the venue are one and the same. This could be a built in personal bias as I come at audio from a pro audio, [applied/solutions oriented] perspective, and no venue currently is properly tuned for performance without DEQ; it is where the rubber meets the road to audio pros. I am neither advocating it nor dissuading its use. There are no shortcuts to the Laws of Physics here, and DEQ will not bring full range sound to the B200 or any other driver on an open baffle.

Interesting that you plugged in the B200 after the Omegas. Box vs. no box. It sounds to me like there may be yet another convert in the making. Once fully broken in, and situated, as Nigel can attest, the B200 is capable of a very, very powerful presentation.

I am becoming interested in the idea of using TWO B200's on an open baffle, one low-passed at around 300Hz, to maintain the point source sound, and increase sensitivity to around 99db. Now you are talking true high sensitivity broad bandwidth, with the ability to play complex signals completely uncompromised by bass modulation of the mids. Talk about a cost effective World Class music maker?

[Tubo]

I've sitting on the fence for a couple of reasons. One,  I have not even opened the BK-16 kit I ordered from Madisound almost 3 months ago. Also, I am moving in about 5 weeks.

But, if there is a group buy at significant savings, I'm in!

[JeffB]

taken from http://www.answers.com/topic/manila-hemp

Manila hemp, the most important of the cordage fibers. It is obtained chiefly from the Manila hemp plant (Musa textilis) of the family Musaceae (banana family). It is grown mainly in its native Philippine Islands, where it has been cultivated since the 16th cent. and is known as abacá. The abacá is in no way related to the true hemp; it is of the same genus as the common banana, which it closely resembles except for the inedible fruit. At maturity the plants are cut down, and the long fibers are taken from overlapping leaves that converge at the base to form a false stem. The fibers are exceptionally strong and durable. The coarser ones are used for binder twine, matting, and rope, particularly marine cordage because of their resistance to the action of saltwater; the finer grades are woven into beautiful native fabrics and hemp hats. Manila paper is made chiefly from old Manila hemp ropes and is valuable as a strong wrapping paper. Manila hemp is classified in the division Magnoliophyta, class Liliopsida, order Zingiberales, family Musaceae.

[maxwalrath]

I am becoming interested in the idea of using TWO B200's on an open baffle, one low-passed at around 300Hz, to maintain the point source sound, and increase sensitivity to around 99db. Now you are talking true high sensitivity broad bandwidth, with the ability to play complex signals completely uncompromised by bass modulation of the mids. Talk about a cost effective World Class music maker?

I like that idea. To me, the 33's are the most interesting Omega model for the same reason.

I might be interested in a group buy as well...but it depends on the details. My apartment is too small for open baffles right now so they'd be sitting in a box until I moved.

[Bemopti123]

Doc, I have read about this Dark Star idea from your other postings, or at least picking hints of it.  When I went for Search on the subject, the only things I used to get were Googled responses such as Star Trek, and other physical question that had nothing to do with a speaker design.

Plans for this piece would be worthwhile, when are you planning to sell the plans?  Your system, with the woofer and the supertweeter intrigues me greatly.

Sign me up for the group buy.

Paul from NYC

[tianguis]

Dan:
      I'm interested in a group buy, also, even though I've got the Lowthers where I like them.

Larry Welsh

[JLM]

Sign me up for a group buy.

Richard,

The only single ended Class A pentode amp I've heard was a 6 wpc Decware Taboo (that uses SV83 or EL84 output tubes) didn't have nearly the bass or overall output of my Clari-T when compared side by side.  (As others have said, the Clari-T has amazing bass depth/control and overall power compared to its 6 wpc rating.)  This might address at least some of your lack of bass.  But as others have said, the bass on the B200 comes after many more hours of break-in.

[ebag4]

Barfind, I just saw your request, my IB can be seen at the "Cult" site, here: http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/page3IB-Gallery3.htm
(Second system down)

Guys, quickly totaling up the potential B200 orders I count at a minimum of 20 pairs, that is assuming one pair per person with the excption of one person that indicated "a few".  I sent an email to Solen today requesting info on discounts for bulk purchases, I mentioned possibly 20 pair but asked for info on larger quantities as well.  I will post once I receive a response.  We should also request info from the manufacturer, has anyone done this by any chance?  Is there a better or "standard" way to go about this?  Any and all info welcome.

Great info here guys, thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge.

BTW: Thomas also runs a great site over at the "Cult of the infinitely baffled", I have to believe that IB bass is a great match for OB speakers, some similarities in the way they work. It is my hope that OB is as great an improvement over bass reflex as the IB sub has been compared to any other sub I have heard.[/url]

[JoJatek]

Hello, Hugo here.

I have posted only a time or two and mostly corresponded so far but I want to join in on the OB thread.  You folks have been discussing (I read alll 35 pages) exactly what I have been thinking about.  I had it down to either the Fostex Fe-206E that I purchased modified by Steve Deckert or the Visaton B200.  This thread has been thinking B200 all the way so thank you for all the posts.  I would certainly be interested in joining the group buy.  

I am using Vinnies Clari-T (soon to be converted to dual mono) only mine is slighty different in that I had the Tripath TA-2020 Eval board on had so mine is based on that. It's a little more power but, more importantly, sounded a little warmer right from the get-go.  Kind of reminded me a lot of my SET amps but with more bass guts.

I am not highly technical but love to build so the whole OB thing is a natural selection for me. I have an old Dalhquist crossover that I plan to use with a Hafler DH-220 for the low end.  Vinnie's "T" for the B200's.  So what do we do next?

I am also enjoying my friend Ed Schilling's Horns right now and will not give those up but the OB thing is talking to me!  

Regards

Hugo

[maxwalrath]

Maxwalrath- The idea that OB's need to be big, wide, hideous looking things is the most common misconception there is about OB.  .

A common misconception about my livingroom in this small, 1 bedroom rowhouse is that it's bigger than 110 square feet   . I've got a couch, bookshelf, cd's, equipment rack, 31 inch non-flat-screen tv and a coffee table to squeeze in too...my Super 3R's fill the room nicely (but I do want a sub...). I changed my entire system over the past year because of the new living space - no more 110w SS amp and good bye VMPS speakers.

[Dmason]

Max,

I think narrow baffles would be very cool in you smaller room. Dont negate the possibilities.

--My interest in doubling up the drivers hasnt anything to do with bass, and everything to do with relieving the point source of modulation, and increasing SPL/2+db.

--The Haflers are true bassmasters. I own a 9505, and it is one sand amp I wont be parting with any time soon. You have access to serious bass power with the 220, which is a cult classic. I LOVE the sound of the 9505.

--Someone try the wonderfully helpful Wolfgang at www.spectrumaudio.de who gets this stuff to you fast. He knows the business, and I am SURE he would talk turkey. He is well aware that the B200 phenom is spreading to North America.

Vinnie called to tell me he got his speakers tonite, as I was at work, I couldnt hear him too well, cept for the dry-mouthed, shit-eating grin on his face in response to the sound of the fresh drivers in his machined acrylic baffles. Pix to follow apparently. He ordered them a week ago from Germany.!!

--Dont get rid of your Hornshoppe Sigma horns. Those too are one of the few true music makers at a reasonable investment out there and would be my number 1 off the shelf choice; the double ones.

[maxwalrath]

DMason & Maxwalrath- you can find a lot of drivers that would provide much better bass fill at a lower price than a 2nd B200.

I'm more curious about dual drivers for increased sensitivity than for bass response- ala Omega 33's getting 3dB more sensitivity than 3R's using two of the same driver. I figure if I'm going to try high efficiency speakers, why mess around with candy-ass 93dB speakers...why not try to get close to 100?

In a bigger listening room I would still want a sub. I'm a huge bass fan in a tiny apartment with a 70 year old woman upstairs...

Thanks guys for talking me into it....I'm in for a pair (at least).

[nodiak]

maxwalrath, just something to chew on, I have dual FE107e's in OB right now, 10"x 16" x 4" deep. Down to ~ 150 hz, each sitting on a bass box (could be 8" in 1 cf in your room for ex.) . The 107 is the next size down from the 127's used in 33's, and really just a little smaller. Don

[maxwalrath]

That would definitely work...


I'd like a sub soon, and the 107's are cheap enough that I could give them a try in an OB for practically nothing.


I'd like to move in a few months, so hopefully size won't be an issue and I can focus on quality.

[RoadTripper]

Mine, when I make them, will be going into corners of a bedroom that is about 12 feet long.

I haven't seen much discourse about how OBs behave in corners of small rooms.

I don't plan on using a sub.

Any input?

Thanks

[Dmason]

Bruce

Into the corners is good; you will have to experiment with your particular room, as it is unique, as will be the size of the baffles, and all this is in play. One thing I discovered was that with the baffles adjacent to corners, with the baffles sealed along the wall, the driver now sees an IB for the floor AND wall joint. This brings a substantial bass lift. More than I would have thought.

The B200 will do bass. It is a "bass capable" driver, but OB is not about so called full range response. Myself, I am really happy with the results of a 1050X650 baffle size toward the corners in my place. A good size, but in clear polycarbonate, it draws far less attention to itself than even a smallish monkey coffin pair along a long wall.

[ooheadsoo]

Depending on when the GP actually takes place, I may be in for a pair.

[-Richard-]

Hi Dan,

thanks for your further insights and overview of your recent experiments.
So far I can say that the operative word regarding the B200 experience
is SEDUCTIVE...the speed of these drivers is lightning fast...separating
instruments into distinct spatial fields which simply was not apparent
before...the OB thing is fully in play here...a slightly larger than life
presentation perhaps due to the "spread" of the sound into a larger
space in the room as opposed to a point source design...and yet the
clarity and detail sparkle like fire works on the fourth of July...the B200
"charges" the air...invigorates it...as you have pointed out the room
is now the baffle...SEDUCTIVE...everything else sounds constrictive
and overly managed...nice!

Hi JeffB,

Thanks for the thorough description of the Manila Hemp; family Musaceae
which is used as the cone material of the B200. Fascinating, informative
and concise. And thanks for the link.

Hi JohninCR,

I deeply appreciate your overview of what is possible with a more minimal
baffle design for OB speakers...which confirms Dan's own observation that
a smaller baffle could be just as effective...great news for Deb who will certainly
find a smaller baffle more to her liking...any pictures? I hope you continue to share
your insights with us...great to have your contribution to this evolving art form of
the OB phenomena...

Hi JLM,

The entire issue of the useful frequencies of my integrated Wright Audio
Single Ended Pentode amp is fraught with problems for me. I purchased it
9 years ago and it was the only thing I could find that was cheap enough to
get me into the whole SET thing...$700...I never entirely thought it was successful.
At just 6 watts it did not perform well with my Ruark Crusader 2 speakers with
their 86db efficiency...it has tone controls...and the bass clipped easily...
just before the bass disintegrated sonically it sounded no better than a muffled
boomy fog...the treble was not much better...and at its worst it sounded like a
SS amp...hard and glassy...

After burning in my Omega Grand 8's with the ClariT I decided to put the
Wright Audio amp into play...just for fun...it did not sound so good...
so I replaced the 2 large tubes with a pair of Tesla tubes that were
9 years old which I purchased when I was into tube rolling back them...
it helped the amp a bit...gave a hint of possibilities...so I went on the web
and found out that Tesla tubes were bought and opened again after being
shut down for a few years...I decided to purchase both pairs of tubes...now
called JJ/Tesla and when they arrived I put them into the amp and nearly fell
down on the floor...even Deb could not believe her ears...this lowly SEP amp
went from being a mildly interesting amp to sounding like a $20,000 state of the
art highly dynamic and incredibly refined masterpiece...why?...God only knows...

When I listen to the Master and Commander film soundtrack...which has powerful
drums that are meant to shake the walls of your house...the drums do shake the
walls of my house...I look at the Omega's and scratch my head...that bass is coming
from that modest speaker?...it is uncanny...and inexplicable...audiophile friends who
have visited me look in wonder as well...it sounds like there is a 20 inch subwoofer
in play...and I cannot explain why...how did this mediocre amp leap into a
transformation of performance like that?

So I am using the Wright Amp to burn in my B200's and slowly...bass is beginning
to appear...but as Dan suggests...the OB design of the B200 is not about bass
in absolute terms...although Dan concedes that the bass could be improved if
implemented in a design that pushes that aspect of its performance...unlike some
of our esteemed friends here on AC I do not especially hunger for bass...I suspect
it is the music Deb and I listen to...Deb does not even like strong bass...it does not
translate as "music" for her but as noise and I respect her musical ethos..especially
since we listen to music together...we do not watch TV...although we have a profound
love of film...enhanced to a wonderful degree through the Omega's and now through
the B200's...

Warm regards -Richard-