[Dmason]

Mark

Ripole 18's for bass....that IS sick. Find a doctor who knows something about your illness  Actually, I think the 18's would be the way to go if you have the room. There, you're healed.

John

Your idea is along the lines of what I was thinking; sort of a roadmap to open baffle success, without the complexity as seen in the Orion, for example, where it rapidly gets pretty much out of control, once you take a look at the recipe, schematically. My thing is Less=More, and I intend to keep it that way, with easy instructional guide to musical success. This is pretty much the mantra of Pi Speakers, and Wayne has had great results. Three or four different OB main driver reco's at different sizes, from 6.5 to 15",  none of which need tweeter or XO, and at least two different bass configs, none of which are sealed or "conventional." Dipole bass is easy and cost effective enough that it should be attempted. One needn't spend alot on drivers for bass, because they ain't going to be working too hard in the first place.

 One other thing: I have found that IKEA is an absolute wonderland of audio bits and bobs, and usually found close to Home Depot. They even have dipole bass cabinet kits and really nice hardwood baffles, 1/2" tempered glass, the works! Open baffle fun for the whole family, when you visit the "furniture" store!! Make your wor$ening audio addiction a fun time for the whole family with DarkStar Audio,-- is sort of my marketing angle.

[mcgsxr]

Good points about the Ripole - sounds to me like it is a little uncharted for my liking... I think I will stick to a W baffle, since I only intend on having one 2x18 sub to start.

You are right about the large woofer, small magnet thing, but the efficiency is not bad - 94db, so around 97db with a pair of them - sounds good on paper, to match up with the Visatons in that department.

Here is a link to the driver - I have no stock in their company or anything, and no allegiance to this driver in particular - it simply looks darn good for the application, and should do OK in a W baffle by my planning so far.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-386

Also in consideration is the Eminence Beta 15 - specs here, lower QTS of 0.58 - http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm and then click on the woofers to enter, then Eminence, then 15's...

As for W baffles, do they share the same relationship for sizing the opposite sides of the driver (the space on each side being relatively equal?).  When it comes to EQ, I just want to keep things as simple as possible, so if I can avoid the extra expense, and still end up with decent sound, I would prefer that.

I am not planning on selling any of this stuff, just fulfilling my own personal zaniness!

If the W baffle thing does not work out, I can always accelerate the finishing off of the new basement, and IB those big bad boys!

Thanks for the info along the way, I for one really appreciate it.

[mcgsxr]

Great info JohninCr, I appreciate your taking the time to share.

I will have to think more about my ultimate goals for bass for this system, but off the top of my head, I am hoping to achieve 30Hz extension, a match for the volume of the Visatons, and move a lot of air - not sure if that last part is usually part of the experience for OB bass.  I already own a sub plate amp, and will gladly further invest in these.

A quick report on sound after the labour of making the baffles folded - not much to report really - I do like a little lean in the baffle though, so I will need to rig up a way to have a bit of tilt to it, while still being able to have the wings folded back.

I can say that folding the baffles to a 90 degree corner is not best, it seems to collapse the soundstage - I am finding 30-45 degrees is working nicely.

For the final version of these speakers, I think I will have both wings the same size, a fixed portion JUST larger than the b200, and will have the driver itself about 26 inches from the floor.  I will try an angled "top" on the rear of the baffle, and will use some Russian Birch for the center portion.  I am not sure if I will use all Russian birch, or if I will use different materials for different portions of the baffles - I have found that this is good, for building boxes, but have not yet tried anything like that for OB.

I am also thinking that I will take a month off from carving these up, and let some of y'all catch up!  Really, I look forward to reading about your installations, experiments, and results.

I will keep thinking about what bass does it for me - to date, and please bear with the following foolishness..., the absolute best bass I have ever heard was in a car.  An '85 VW Golf with 4 sealed 8's, and a pair of sealed 15's.  Playing Yes' 90125's "Owner of a Lonely Heart" back in the day..., the hair on your neck, and arms would respond to the pressurization of the cabin.  To this day, I have not felt bass like that.

Not sure it can even be arranged, outside of a car, with the inherent cabin gain there.  I did see an interesting thread on DIYAudio, with a guy using 4 15 inch Pyle Pro PPA15's, in a pair of H baffles - he claimed stupendous bass out of that setup!

[tobyw]

Here is a question to Dan, Mark and anyone else who would like make a suggestion ,

If you decided to do a five channel surround for a home theater in your bedroom with B200's, and the rears were flush ceiling mounted, the l+r fronts were smaller baffles flanking the plasma screen, what mounting design would you implement fo the center channel?  All three front speakers would be on top of a sideboard and up off the floor.  I was thinking about a folded baffle as Mark made for the l+r channels, but done in plastic to make them seem smaller, but the center channel speaker design is a problem for me...
Thank you in advance!

Toby

[-Richard-]

Hi Toby,

I am going to sound presumptuous by suggesting that you try a 2 channel
system with your B200 OB speakers first...

From everything I have read on this thread...and from a careful reading
of Dan's audio philosophy and his own implementation of the B200 OB
baffle design...2 channels should bring you very close to the wrap around
sound you are looking for without all the extra speakers and complex
channels to have to fuss with...

Please do not take this the wrong way, Toby...I am not building a case against
multi-channel audio implementation...although personally it appears to me to be
yet another "new" marketing ploy to sell "more" stuff to music lovers which could
only complicate our audio lives unnecessarily...and bleed us even further from
our hard earned money...

My baffle should be ready either tonight or sometime tomorrow...so I will have
a chance to report back to this thread very soon of what I am hearing...

Dan's philosophy is less=more...a basically Taoist wisdom that rearranges
our approach to life so that our thinking is kept clear, clean and fluid...like water...

We American's are highly conditioned to think in terms of complexity...which
certainly makes some corporate entities rich and powerful....thinking with
simplicity is exercising a form of discretion...that promotes a new paradigm
of what we actually need to solve problems...it is also beautiful in absolute terms...

To me the most beautiful thing about interior space is the space itself...
space as subject...not object...as a dynamic process of being...we fill it up
at our own peril...because the mind also fills up in reflection....

I am very careful what I add to my already far too cluttered mind...I take away...
in that taking away new space appears that refreshes and renews...that is
the secret of the joy of children...and the despair of the aging process...

The new paradigm is a total rethinking of what we need to satisfy our needs...
less=more is the dynamic process we will all have to embrace sooner or later
if the earth is to survive...our resources are finite...we should practice
living with that understanding...otherwise one day we shall have to answer
for it...the Lakota Native Americans see themselves as stewards of the earth...
and they take it upon themselves to protect the earth for 7 generation to come...
I wonder how long it will take for the rest of humanity to gain that wisdom...

Warm regards -Richard-

[miklorsmith]

Seven generations?  How about one?  Protect the earth?  Whatever do you mean?  Stewards?  Does that refer to the "race of extraction?"

Humanity will gain that wisdom when the great experiment fails.  Let's hope it's a gentle landing.

[Dmason]

"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us will escape into outer space."  -- Frank Zappa

I consider myself a steward of the earth. I am constantly picking up after others. I drive a minimalist 4 cylinder car, and ride a bicycle to work. I plan to use solar power for my home's electrical needs.  

There are two types of people: net contributors and net consumers. Within the first group there exists one type of person, latter of the two groups, there are two kinds of people: those who get it, and those who don't. If the meaning of this is not immediately obvious to you, consider yourself a member of the latter group.

 Americans generate the second most per capita tonnage of waste on Earth. Canadians come first, in this respect. ------>Bigga id mo betta.

Toby

If it is the B200 price/performance ratio you find attractive, and wish to apply it to a HT situation, you should at least consider the SOLO 20 alignment on the Visaton site. 20L sealed, shelved, with a notch filter for a spike at ~800Hz. Use of a DEQ could get rid of the inductor. I would imagine this to be a KILLER 5 channel B200 set up. If your heart is set on OB, get out your saw!

[mcgsxr]

Great, Canada finally comes first... and it is for this!

Dovetails with the conversation my father and I had this past weekend, about electric vs gas lawnmowers - he is on the electric side of the fence, and having grown up with the electrics, I of course want a gas one.   Perhaps a cordless model will soothe me enough to forgo another fossil fuel device - my family already has 2 cars, and 1 minibike - Honda CT70 circa 1976, so I won't be told I don't reuse!

On the HT with b200 front - I agree with both Richard and Dmason.  First off, I would build up the OB b200, and try it out.  For surrounds and center channel, should you decide you desire/need them, I would think that the SOLO 20 sealed one should do the trick - and with rerouting 80Hz and down from all 5 channels to some bass device of your choice, you might have discovered the ultimate timbre matched 5 channel setup.

I will stick with the DIY Cable KIT41 for HT for me, and the OB thing for 2 channel.

Now, if I could find the bass of my dreams...

Oh, and I look forward to what Richard comes up with - ie, if he can get it past Deb, I am sure my wife will love it!

[powerbench]

Not to wax philosophical BUT isnt N.America the grossest collection of ignorant consumers on the planet???!!!We need to pump  our egos by the cars we drive,we spend thousands on items we dont need ,plastic surgery to make ourselves more  beautiful and excessive lifestyles to inflame our daily self importance on this planet but ignore the real humantarian  and ecological issues that are propelling our Earth into decay and demise!
Yes I think we should enjoy our luxuries but have an awareness and  a responsibility to do more with what we have....

[powerbench]

PS...I forsaw the potential need for  extra bass so i had vinnie install sub outs on my ClariT for the future.....take care of that Bass Humping Need...

[LymphNode]

What he said.

Owning a minimalist stereo rig wrought from parts built by poor people in poisoned lands does not speak favorably to one's concern for Earth.

The self-righteous buffoonery in this thread has left me queasy.  
Does anyone have any schematics for an open-baffle emesis basin?  I'm thinking about building one with TEAK and IVORY.

[JohninCR]

Toby,

Hopefully you're not talking about a regular CRT TV because the B200 has a sizeable magnet.  I say forget the center channel and just go with a phantom center.  I firmly believe the center channel was only a ploy to make people buy new and more equipment.  The surround speakers are needed though to help add realism and panning of sound to match the video.

Think about going with very small baffles with shallow angled wings for stability, setting the speaker size to small and putting a sub under the bed.  Use a nice hardwood for the baffles for extra WAF.  I'd also go OB with the surrounds, again with small baffles out from the corners angled down to the listening position and covered in a thin white material to match the ceiling and be almost invisible.

[miklorsmith]

The self-righteous buffoonery in this thread has left me queasy.

Isn't calling someone out as self righteous a boomerang that comes right back?

I wouldn't respond, but I assume my buffoonery is a cause of your ill.  I hope you're feeling better.

There was no claim that building a particular stereo elevated anyone to superior status.  These were mere digressions having nothing to do with the central question of how to build a better DarkStar.  My belief is that we are all intelligent enough to discuss issues outside stereo and that these exchanges help us understand the people we know in this one dimension.

As such, I'm sure you are aware that conspicuous consumption exists?  And that Canada and the US are primary consumers of conspicuousness?

The issue and question is largely one of philosophy, though as Dmason points out we all make decisions which affect our respective roles here.  I try to buy products made in the US, but not everything is.  Globalization has precluded many choices.

I see a lot of big SUV's on my way to work (which I cannot cycle to, by my own choice).  Most of them have one driver and no cargo.  Many of these will never see snow or dirt, which is the premise behind them in the first place.  I suppose they are trendy though.

I am not the enemy of personal choice, I merely question the values and choices many make in relation to the planet and the fact that so many of us (me included) do not Value the world and its many blessings sufficiently.  This is My Opinion.  I can accept "self righteous" in this context, however "buffoonery" is a bit much.

Now, back to regularly scheduled programming. . .

[powerbench]

My previous point was more an observation of the culture that we live in.I am not sure what comment he was referring to mine or your(s).We all have the right to opinion and speech (and of course your  flavor of audio eqpt).I just observe and question the needs and patterns of consumerism...we are all guilty of it to a certain degree...myself included.

The earlier comment was intersting and may be taken as a key  example .... one person driving a 60000 SUV down the highway off to work.Do they 'really' need such a machine for simple transportation or is it more of a status symbol??Where do you draw the line in what is acceptable??

[Dmason]

I live in an area where it is not uncommon to see someone using a twin axle 1 ton crewcab, jacked up skyward, for their daily ride, believe it or not..sick shit indeed, but it  appears to be "reality," to some. It is a power trip plain and simple, insecure souls in an uncertain world, projecting "power;" they are much more powerful than grandma when crossing the intersection. The American consumer society does not promote ecological sensitvity. I personally hope the spike in gas prices is the meteor hit that needs to happen to put those dinosaurs out of their misery, without slowing economic activity too much.. GM didn't move fast enough, and now they are on the endangered species list. My up market Motobecane curb climber gets great mileage, and cardio before and after work, keeping fitness levels up for activities I enjoy more than driving. Hope that doesn't seem tooo sanctimonious. Just that I greatly prefer two wheels over four. (Including motorized.)

Toby

Good news! I mounted a B200 in a 12 inch baffle this am, and was astounded at the level of lower FR, clearly below 100Hz. Very impressive, and bodes well for  your OB home theatre idea. If you had speaker settings in mind, you could easily go with an even narrower baffle, say 10.75"  I received four pairs yesterday!!

[tobyw]

Hi, DMason!
12 inch baffle?  Do you mean 12 inch square and maybe 3/4 inch thick?  It would definitely be easier to construct than the cubes from the Visaton site!  Bass can be covered with a subwoofer...

Thank you for the idea!

[Dmason]

Toby

It was a piece of scrap about 30X12. I just tacked it onto a stud in my garage. It worked more than fine, well enough that I want to install another one in the adjacent wall. I see no reason why the baffle couldn't be 12^2....the high Q of the B200 makes this possible. You might even think about a shaped baffle.

If you plan on using a home theater receiver with a "digital" amp you will enjoy the enhanced driver control, which lends itself to this type of situation. Setting the speaker to "small" shelves it @100Hz, and relieving it of bass signal allows the driver to breathe, and moves you away from that rising Z @80Hz. Very promising. Who knows, this might be the optimal set up:  Satellite OB/B200

[LymphNode]

What could be better than exporting pollution and disease and importing cheap, high-quality goods?  How much would a Clari-T amp cost if it were manufactured in Indonesia?  Certainly not $500.00.

Having nice things on the cheap is a good thing.

I am not the sanctimonious one, here.  If you really care, don't buy any products manufactured in Asia or Latin America and go build a yurt off the grid.

[miklorsmith]

Simple is as simple does.

[-Richard-]

My baffle was finished last night and I hooked up my Single Ended
Pentoid integrated to it and it  sounded astoundingly clear and
articulate from the beginning...Deborah immediately commented
on the focus of the sound field...

We put Madeleine Peyroux's Careless Love CD on and her lovely
40's style bluesy vulnerable nuanced voice was very present
and palpable...a must get CD incidentally...this French singers
interpretations sound something like Billie Holiday but she has
made it her own...subtly the feelings she stimulates move through
your nervous system and enter your blood stream...

Yes...I hear the somewhat analytical nature of the B200 sound that
Dan mentioned...and the warmth as well is there...wonderful detail...
very clean sounding...not much lower frequency however which from
reading the posts of this thread could be a room issue and may need
EQ'ing from the Berhinger to flesh it out...

My panel is 3/4" Birch with rounded corners sized at present to 41.5" x 25.25"
with the B200 drivers offset in mirror image centered on 11" from the top to
the sides...the drivers are flush mounted...

I traded an older pair of Ruark speakers for the help of a master cabinet maker
who lives in Ojai who actually built the thing for me based on my specs...
he created a sliding "foot" the rests at the bottom center in the back of the panel
that uses two wing nuts that can be loosened and tightened to adjust for an
unlimited tilt backward...very workable, minimal  and beautifully designed.

The look of the thing in my living space is large as you might imagine but
not altogether unappealing...frankly I am growing fond of the thing...
and Deb has not raised her eyebrows...yet...I think she really likes the
Birch which has a very light yellowish tone...enhanced with a natural oil
that Jim McCarthy rubbed into the surface to give the Birch a warmer glow...

I am already talking to Jim about building a winged version...it would be
wonderful if a somewhat definitive proportion could be worked out for the winged
version...at least the "relationships" of the elements...a Golden Mean...
the overall size being somewhat  room dependent and perhaps ultimately
a matter of taste...

Having less than 2 hours of play time has tempered my response...however so
far it lives up to Dan's enthusiasm very nicely...frankly I was blown away by
the clarity and transparency of the sound...I can easily see why this "sound"
has so deeply affected so many really knowledgeable audio people as related to
us by Dan in his "international" research adventures...

Thanks so much Dan for your kindness and support...your generosity of spirit...
your magician's theatricality which creates such excitement and sense of adventure...
your ongoing infusion of wisdom and humanity...and your impeccable research
and musicians intuitive sense of where the magic lies...

And thanks Mark for sharing your design adventures with us and your invaluable
pictures...your energy certainly helped inspire me and I was able to "prepare"
Deb for the actual baffles that we are currently living with...although most definitely
a work in progress...as is this entire thread...

And thanks to everyone who has taken time to contribute to this adventure...
very exciting and deeply appreciated...

Ah yes...LymphNode...your response to the honest soul searching that
occasionally appears in this thread is designed to distance yourself from
what you must perceive as a kind of self-indulgence...actually it is us guys
learning how to reach down a little deeper than usual to pull out feelings
and ideas that we rarely communicate to each other...and synchronistically
fits the new paradigms we are working with in our experiments in audio...
you are obviously uncomfortable with honest expressions of feelings...and
your discomfort translates into your perceiving it as exaggerations of tone...

The Lymph system is the bodies secondary circulatory defense against the
presence of toxins and bacteria...it works by moving these harmful elements
safely out of the areas of the body that would otherwise degenerate through
stagnation...the Lymph system does not have a heart to generate a driving
force like the blood circulatory system enjoys..rather it depends on the bodies
movement to push the lymphatic fluids through...

If you take the name of LymphNode...then you have a responsibility to act like
a LymphNode...push those feelings through so they do not stagnate and
cause injury...and learn to accept others expressions of their feelings without
feeling threatened...that way you will be emotionally healthy and people will
like you better...an evolutionary step in the right direction...try it...it works!

Warm regards -Richard-