[AllanS]

I have a sound stage problem described below that I'm pretty sure is partly related to the room and treatments.  I posted here instead of The Acoustics Circle because the question is specific to the diffusion panels GR just added https://gr-research.com/product/diffusion-panels/.

In the images below I'm considering replacing front corner and sidewall traps with diffusers and adding front wall coverage.  Details are below but my basic question is whether or not reworking the GIK base traps with the diffusion panels GR started carrying a few weeks ago would be as effective as free hung panels.

In the pics below you'll see GIK corner and RH sidewall first reflection traps, two free standing traps, and rear wall traps.  To rework I'd replace the absorptive material in the traps with panels cut to fit in the GIK enclosures.  It may seem ridiculous, which it may well be, but I'd rather look at the GIK enclosures (which the wife has already accepted) than the bare panels and I don't want the hassle of trying to sell them.  A problem is the corner traps and free standing panels are only 21" wide so I'd have to cut the panels to fit.

The idea would be to rehang the reworked sidewall panels and line the front wall with the corner traps reworked flat and the free standing panels which would be hung on the wall.  I'd use separate removable panels sitting in front of the TV (or maybe one of the sidewall panels) for critical listening and leave the rear wall traps as is.

System: Eversolo DMP A8 > Schiit Lyr+ > Schiit Aegir > Spatial M4 Sapphires. BJC SE interconnects, Moon Audio Black Dragon speaker cables.  Stock power cables.  Panamax MR4000 surge protector.
Listening space is 11' x 14' x 8' in a room that is 20' x 14'.  Speakers are 3' from the front wall, 5-1/2' center to center, and the RH speaker center is 3' from the RH side wall.  LP is 6-1/2 feet from the speakers and 4-1/2' from the back wall (it's actually in front of the sofa - a nice comfy folding chair). 

The Lyr+, repurposed from desk top duty, would be next.  What it's replaced with would depend somewhat on how effective the treatment changes are at improving the problem described below.

Problem:
I like the overall tone with acoustic stuff up to small ensemble in size but lower mids / bass gets congested when the music gets more complex. 
Aside from what I'm increasingly convinced is a problem with my ears, the sound stage width and height are pretty good and has decent depth but is pretty flat.  In something like Dave Brubeck Take Five from Time Out on Qobuz instruments seem well placed left and right and front to back - I'm satisfied - but in general vocals seem to be too recessed.  Mids and upper mids wander occasionally and at times instrument vertical placement - guitars in particular - seems to be off / asymmetric with instruments on the left seemingly higher than the right.  That may how it's supposed to be but it's weird and throws off the experience.

Comparing the FR and waterfall plots with and without treatments, the treatments aren't really doing much in my space.  I do have a couple of room modes to deal with (which is part of the reason for settling on the DMP A8) but the FR is close enough to being identical and the room is borderline dead without the treatments.  Should I expect diffusion to liven up the space?

[corndog71]

Have you tried LOTS by NRD?

https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0?si=uSQBnPjw4FrgITfi

For the best soundstage it takes quite a bit of experimention.  At least that’s been my experience.  Just when I think I have it down, I move a speaker an inch or so and it changes.  Sometimes it’s better and sometimes it’s worse.  Eventually the sound goes from pretty good to oh my lord why didn’t I do this before?! 

As far as room treatment goes, I started with a lot of ATS absorbers.  They definitely help tame a bare room.  But I’m now convinced diffusion works better for certain places.  Front wall for sure.  Possibly 1st reflection points.  I haven’t gotten there yet.  Definitely considering Danny’s diffusers. 

[AllanS]

Have you tried LOTS by NRD?

Great question. Thanks for asking.  That’s s actually how I ended up with the current speaker / LP positions.  I can still play with/optimize toe in and speaker separation, but LOTS is the only set up approach that really worked for me because the differences were so obvious at first that the differences in fine tuning were well defined even as they became much more subtle.
 The only thing I would add to lots is to verify LP to speaker distances.The initial setup is predicated on the space being square, which mine is certainly not.

[SoCalWJS]

My 2 cents…

That room looks problematic. That “Office nook” (not sure what to call it) presents problems.

Do you have the option/approval to shift things around? I would at least try the speakers further out from the front wall, so that they are at least even to the wall that forms the Office nook.

Have you tried moving to equilateral triangle by moving couch forward and going “near field”?

Other option might be to turn the system 90 degrees as an experiment.

[WGH]

Why did you choose Spatial M4 Sapphire speakers for that room? The top 2/3rds behind the speakers is a big reflective area, I'm not surprised all that reflected sound along with the TV in the middle is blurring the soundstage. My friends with open baffle speakers prefer an expansive sound stage over pin point imaging.

Movie nights on the sofa must be fun with 103 Hz, 154 Hz and 205 Hz standing waves at the back wall adding heft to action movies.

Your room dimensions plugged into the Harman Room Mode Calculator - a tool to play with after reading Part 2 of "Maximizing Loudspeaker Performance in Rooms" that has detailed information on how to interpret the graphs.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0



Audio Check has a entire suit of free audio tests
https://www.audiocheck.net/index.php


The Online LEDR Sound Test
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

LEDR™ stands for Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording, a test to subjectively evaluate the accuracy of stereo image reproduction.

In the eighties, psychoacousticians began researching what are called pinna transforms, the way in which the shape of the outer ear filters the incoming sounds and permits our brain to infer their location. By embedding the filtering characteristics of the pinna into the audio signal, sound can be moved around the listener's head from a single pair of loudspeakers.

The LEDR test generates pinna-filtered audio that will literally float around your speakers, assuming your sound reproduction system is neutral enough to preserve the original signal characteristics.

You will now be testing your stereo system and room acoustics for correct imaging. If you have any problem reproducing the LEDR test, look for interfering room surfaces in the direction of the distortion.

[Rusty Jefferson]

You seem to be showing both a long wall and a short wall setup attempt, but in each you have the sofa pinned against the rear wall. That rarely works. Use a stool and slide it away from the sofa and towards the speakers and see if things become less congested. Relocate the sofa accordingly.

[seikosha]

You seem to be showing both a long wall and a short wall setup attempt, but in each you have the sofa pinned against the rear wall. That rarely works. Use a stool and slide it away from the sofa and towards the speakers and see if things become less congested. Relocate the sofa accordingly.

This is exactly what I was going to say.  My experience is that lots of room behind your ears is a good thing.  Even high backed chairs can be problematic too.

[tremrej65]

This is exactly what I was going to say.  My experience is that lots of room behind your ears is a good thing.  Even high backed chairs can be problematic too.

In the original post, he says the listening position is not the sofa, it's a chair in front of the sofa. Quote from the original post: "LP is 6-1/2 feet from the speakers and 4-1/2' from the back wall (it's actually in front of the sofa - a nice comfy folding chair)".

In my humble opinion, the time delay from the right wall is much smaller than the time delay from the left wall. That doesn't help the image. Like someone suggested, a rotation of 90 degrees might be a good idea.

[seikosha]

Thanks tremrej65, I missed that. 

[AllanS]

Thanks all.  I appreciate all your comments and suggestions.

That room looks problematic...Other option might be to turn the system 90 degrees as an experiment.

It is definitely that.  It was originally set up rotated 90 degrees which resulted in the last good argument with the wife when I suggested she close the door if she didn't like seeing the rear of a speaker in the doorway.  I ran an experiment a couple of months ago to diagnose an imaging problem where I rotated it 90 and the problem didn't change. That's when I began suspecting a hearing problem.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=190859.0

Why did you choose Spatial M4 Sapphire speakers for that room? The top 2/3rds behind the speakers is a big reflective area, I'm not surprised all that reflected sound along with the TV in the middle is blurring the sound stage. My friends with open baffle speakers prefer an expansive sound stage over pin point imaging.

An interview with Clayton on NRD a few years ago sold me on the idea of open baffle speakers. It was more than a bit of an impulse buy and I was expecting to have a bit more room to work with.  As mentioned above WAF was not there.  I've been pretty happy with them but I might have come to different decision knowing they'd be set up as they are.  But ever since I honestly never considered that being open baffle would present a unique problem.  But I've also read open baffle work better with front wall diffusion rather than absorption which is why I asked the question about reworking.

Movie nights on the sofa must be fun with 103 Hz, 154 Hz and 205 Hz standing waves at the back wall adding heft to action movies.

Your room dimensions plugged into the Harman Room Mode Calculator - a tool to play with after reading Part 2 of "Maximizing Loudspeaker Performance in Rooms" that has detailed information on how to interpret the graphs.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.0

Thank you for running the numbers and the great reference.  The TV is just for staring at while exercising but the point is equally valid as a listening space.   I may not have used the same calculator but do recall using the same or similar when setting up.  It is part of the reason why the LP is a folding chair in front of the sofa.  It's far from perfect but at least not sitting in the worst spot.
The sofa actually hurt the room quite a bit.  I was expecting it to help but it made the FR worse and further deadened the room.  Besides doubling as an office it's also a guest room.  The sofa is a sleeper.  Pretty comfortable.

Audio Check has a entire suit of free audio tests
https://www.audiocheck.net/index.php
The Online LEDR Sound Test
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php
You will now be testing your stereo system and room acoustics for correct imaging. If you have any problem reproducing the LEDR test, look for interfering room surfaces in the direction of the distortion.

I used these quite a bit when setting up and trying to sort out acoustics but I didn't have that final bit of advice - "look for interfering room surfaces in the direction of the distortion."  I recall the LEDL Over and UpR being the first indication that something wasn't right but I never knew what to do.  Tones just don't track well to the right.  Could that contribute to the depth problem I'm hearing?  It never occurred to me that the depth issue is related to the RH stage problem.

I also found a couple of Native DSD offerings to be a lot of help.  Many of the tracks are accompanied by a .pdf showing instrument placement in the soundstage.
https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1042-audiophile-hires-system-test-great-sampling-tracks-included/
https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/
From the speaker set up disk, tracks 58-67 Precise Location and Depth of Field DSD 128fs - 2ch.dsf were particularly helpful diagnosing a RH stage issue I still have but am resigned to accepting as a hearing problem.  The presenter stands in specific positions relative to a stereo pair of mics where he talks, rings a bell, an strikes a clapper of some sort.  Those tracks led me to rotating the set up as an experiment to see if room symmetry would improve the RH stage.  It did not.  I also found it's not a whole lot better with headphones

I don't mean to ignore other comments but I think they're all covered.  Thanks again.

[Rusty Jefferson]

Thanks tremrej65, I missed that.

Me too. Thanks for pointing that out.

...Those tracks led me to rotating the set up as an experiment to see if room symmetry would improve the RH stage.  It did not.  I also found it's not a whole lot better with headphones

I'm a bit confused by this. There is no soundstage in headphones, its just in the middle of your head. Does a mono recording sound uniform with headphones?

[cheesey]

It might help to have actual diffusers like QRD or BAD panels.

[Early B.]

You can't "fix" the soundstage in that room with room treatments. Just enjoy the space you have.

[tremrej65]

You can't "fix" the soundstage in that room with room treatments. Just enjoy the space you have.

Interesting. What makes it "unfixable"? The asymmetry aspect of the room (right wall much closer than left wall)? I have a similar leaving room where the soundstage is not great compare to my other listening room (small basement room) which is more symmetrical. The sound stage in that small room is actually pretty good.

[AllanS]

I'm a bit confused by this. There is no soundstage in headphones, its just in the middle of your head. Does a mono recording sound uniform with headphones?

I was thinking specifically of the Native DSD Precise Location and Depth of Field tracks where the presenter stands in specific positions relative to a stereo pair of mics where he talks, rings a bell, and strikes a clapper of some sort.
Through the speaker system the left hand stage tone placements - center left and depth - are pretty good whereas right of center the tones remain much closer to the center of the image.  RH tone placements are moderately better through the headphones but not equal to the LH.
Everything I’ve done to diagnose this, including rotating the room, has convinced me that I’m more of a problem than the room or gear.
Mono would be an interesting experiment.  Thanks.  I’ll have to see if the Eversolo has the option.

It might help to have actual diffusers like QRD or BAD panels.

QRD’s won’t get a passing WAF grade.  For BAD are you referring to curve diffusers like these? https://acousticgeometry.com/products/medium-curve-diffusor/.  I could see using these, but I don’t want to put a bunch more money into treatments.  Initial cost and or return shipping would be too much. That’s a big part of the reason for asking about reworking the traps with GR diffuser panels.  If they’re effective, the panels themselves aren’t terribly expensive and I can hide them inside something I already have and don’t mind looking at.
There was another style that’s a simple piece of plastic of variable radius depending on how you mount them. I don’t recall the mfg.

You can't "fix" the soundstage in that room with room treatments. Just enjoy the space you have.

Interesting. What makes it "unfixable"?

I’m curious also.  In this thread I’m most concerned about depth and layering.  The RH stage I tend to agree and am pretty much giving up on.  It’s imbalanced and there isn’t anything I’ve tried that made a noticeable difference.

[WGH]

In this thread I’m most concerned about depth and layering.

Don't discount the idea that it could be your Eversolo and/or Schiit gear. I haven't heard either brand so have no idea how they compare to my stuff. Nobody in our local audio club uses those brands so I can't borrow anything either. They may be individually excellent but maybe bad mojo with no synergy together. Got any electronics in your closet you can swap in?

Hapa RCA cables are known for state-of-the-art depth and layering. I have 3 pair in my system and have demoed the best they have, those I can't afford. The Hapa Breathe C and Ember RCA cables in the Trading Post are no slouches, affordable and WAF approved. Your first reaction will be WOW!

Plenty of reviews to check out
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=45

FOR SALE: Hapa Audio Ember RCA Interconnect 50"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=191683.0

FOR SALE: Hapa Audio Breathe C Copper 1 meter RCA Interconnect
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=191682.0

[nlitworld]

Years ago I moved from BJC to Hapa. Worlds better. Like moving from Kia->Koenigsegg better. At least Corvette level. Lol. Won't necessarily solve your congested right hand soundstage, but it will help with depth, layering and a HUGE increase in clarity. I've heard very few in that quality level. Surprisingly (or not) the new GR ones are right in line there as well. But more on that later on a real review post.

[Rusty Jefferson]

....RH tone placements are moderately better through the headphones but not equal to the LH.
Everything I’ve done to diagnose this, including rotating the room, has convinced me that I’m more of a problem than the room or gear.
Mono would be an interesting experiment.  Thanks.  I’ll have to see if the Eversolo has the option.

Put your headphones on backwards, play that track and see if the right channel image stays the same or moves to the left channel.

You should be able to find some mono recordings on Qobuz.

[cheesey]

QRD’s won’t get a passing WAF grade.  For BAD are you referring to curve diffusers like these? https://acousticgeometry.com/products/medium-curve-diffusor/.  I could see using these, but I don’t want to put a bunch more money into treatments.  Initial cost and or return shipping would be too much. That’s a big part of the reason for asking about reworking the traps with GR diffuser panels.  If they’re effective, the panels themselves aren’t terribly expensive and I can hide them inside something I already have and don’t mind looking at.

BAD = binary amplitude diffuser. Google it.

My point is using diffusers which do little diffusion aren't effective and a waste of money.

[AllanS]

Put your headphones on backwards, play that track and see if the right channel image stays the same or moves to the left channel.

You should be able to find some mono recordings on Qobuz.

Thanks much.  I actually tried this and in the thread where I discussed rotating the set up 90 deg.  From that thread “ The perception of the RH image collapse was present using cans but it was less pronounced and more difficult to locate the image in the sound field than the LH image.  Swapping L for R didn't make a difference.  The RH side was still collapsed.  This is also what fed into convincing me my ears are the problem.  I do need to have another listen though.  Every time I listen seems to be different.”
 
Yeah.  Chasing a ghost is frustrating.

BAD = binary amplitude diffuser. Google it.

My point is using diffusers which do little diffusion aren't effective and a waste of money.

I had an admittedly shallow read so will have a deeper look when I have more time.  Googling BAD took me to binary amplitude diffuser with the curved diffusers as an example. 

I guess I’ll also need to spend more time looking at the panel effectiveness.  I haven’t followed up, but an initial read months ago had me believing they were effective.

At the moment hearing aids and more pressing things are taking priority.   Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions!