[corndog71]

Disappearing is not difficult for any properly designed speaker in a given room.  I’ve heard most speaker designs do it.  Heck even my X-SLS can do it while being driven by a sub-$800 Schiit system.

[VinceT]

Just to be clear, What I'm asking about is a presentation of sonic content in the recording that seems to locate images everywhere in the soundstage EXCEPT from the actual physical location of the speakers. I'm starting to think it's dependent on the recording more than anything

Room size, room reflections(treatments), distance between speakers(and from back wall), quality of the system, and recordings all play a part in this.

[tomlinmgt]

Room size, room reflections(treatments), distance between speakers(and from back wall), quality of the system, and recordings all play a part in this.

For sure, all those variables influence it..but if it isn't in the recording none of those other things matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the importance of room dimensions, speaker/listening spot position, room treatments and the quality of electronics. One look at my space and I think you'll agree I make all those things high priority.

[Tyson]

That's a great room.  I see some NX-Oticas in your future

[Early B.]

Hey guys -- this is the definition of "disappearing" the OP is referring to:

What I don't believe I've ever heard is a speaker that just totally disappears...meaning I have never perceived ZERO sonic content coming directly from the physical location of the speaker.

OP -- based on that pic, you seem to have a perfect setup. What you're hearing in terms of "disappearing" is probably as good as it's gonna get. You're the poster child for the audiophile -- it's never good enough.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Hey guys -- this is the definition of "disappearing" the OP is referring to:

OP -- based on that pic, you seem to have a perfect setup. What you're hearing in terms of "disappearing" is probably as good as it's gonna get. You're the poster child for the audiophile -- it's never good enough.

LOL With my "low buck" interconnects, speaker cables, $100 listening chair, no turn table and second hand gear, my audiophile card would get revoked faster than you can say "Mofi class action lawsuit"!

[Hobbsmeerkat]

The only times I've really gotten to experience what you're talking about (sound everywhere but the speakers) is either with music that does some really interesting stuff with phase, or the speakers are in a REALLY well treated rooms as part of a properly dialed-in system. (this also assumes that the music in question is well recorded as well as mixed & mastered for such a presentation)

Ron's "Sound Shed" is easily the best example I have of getting to hear a presentation like that, there are some reference tracks he uses where the sound is everywhere but the speakers.
Especially with the Aria prototypes. (But also the Encores)
Most decent tracks still do quite well to disappear but not to nearly the same extent as others. The design of the speakers in use can also have an effect on how well they disappear.

The only other time I've seen people say it can be done is with a person using a custom Atmos setup of sorts where there are several identical speakers completely surrounding the person, all equidistant from the listening position, properly calibrated and time aligned. (I also imagine the room will still need to be well treated with absorption to really get it to work)
that said, such a setup will be very large, and will only work for music setup for an Atmos system, and it really only works for 1 person unless you really scale it up in size, cost. etc.

[tomlinmgt]

That's a great room.  I see some NX-Oticas in your future

Thanks for the compliment, Tyson. I'd love to try em!

[Early B.]

LOL With my "low buck" interconnects, speaker cables...

Oh, damn!!! You put your finger on the source of all your audio problems -- weak links (literally)!! Fix this issue and your speakers will disappear. 

[tomlinmgt]

Oh, damn!!! You put your finger on the source of all your audio problems -- weak links (literally)!! Fix this issue and your speakers will disappear.

"Low buck" means they aren't four, five or even (gasp) six figure cables. Most "audiophiles" would classify GR Research cables as "low buck".

[tomlinmgt]

The only times I've really gotten to experience what you're talking about (sound everywhere but the speakers) is either with music that does some really interesting stuff with phase, or the speakers are in a REALLY well treated rooms as part of a properly dialed-in system. (this also assumes that the music in question is well recorded as well as mixed & mastered for such a presentation)

Ron's "Sound Shed" is easily the best example I have of getting to hear a presentation like that, there are some reference tracks he uses where the sound is everywhere but the speakers.
Especially with the Aria prototypes. (But also the Encores)
Most decent tracks still do quite well to disappear but not to nearly the same extent as others. The design of the speakers in use can also have an effect on how well they disappear.

The only other time I've seen people say it can be done is with a person using a custom Atmos setup of sorts where there are several identical speakers completely surrounding the person, all equidistant from the listening position, properly calibrated and time aligned. (I also imagine the room will still need to be well treated with absorption to really get it to work)
that said, such a setup will be very large, and will only work for music setup for an Atmos system, and it really only works for 1 person unless you really scale it up in size, cost. etc.

Yes, Ron's room is pretty dang sweet. Interestingly, we were building our rooms around the same time frame. Would've been cool to share notes with him. I mean, we're only a few hundred miles from one another. If that.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Oh, damn!!! You put your finger on the source of all your audio problems -- weak links (literally)!! Fix this issue and your speakers will disappear.

They'll disappear cuz he has to sell them to replace everything else 

[VinceT]

For sure, all those variables influence it..but if it isn't in the recording none of those other things matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying the importance of room dimensions, speaker/listening spot position, room treatments and the quality of electronics. One look at my space and I think you'll agree I make all those things high priority.

Beautiful room!
I have the LS9's, I do get a disappearing act from them and can get placement of certain instruments within the soundstage. Your right, the recording is a big part of that and the LS6/9 series will definitely let you know it. My room is quite wide so I can take advantage of the scale arrays can bring. What worked for me with the LS9s was moving the tweeters to the outside and widen the speakers a bit  in comparison the the listening position with a slight toe in.

[tomlinmgt]

Beautiful room!
I have the LS9's, I do get a disappearing act from them and can get placement of certain instruments within the soundstage. Your right, the recording is a big part of that and the LS6/9 series will definitely let you know it. My room is quite wide so I can take advantage of the scale arrays can bring. What worked for me with the LS9s was moving the tweeters to the outside and widen the speakers a bit  in comparison the the listening position with a slight toe in.

Thanks for the compliment. I tend to favor a distance between speakers that is around 70-80% the distance between each speaker and listening spot. Equilateral triangle has only really worked for me in a near field configuration...and even in that scenario it's not always the configuration I'll choose. I'll try tweeters to the outside. Do you know if that's the recommended configuration for the LS6/9's? Or has Danny's position been that it's room dependent?

[VinceT]

I always seen them outside, even in Danny's pics.

I got a bit fanatical with a tape measure and positioning and tried all the configurations. With the LS9s slighly wider/equalateral to seating position was better. Slight toe in also made a difference. I known they are heavy, but worth getting them into the room a bit more. I got furnature sliders off Amazon that make a difference when positioning them.for optimal listening.

[AllanS]

What I'm asking about is a presentation of sonic content in the recording that seems to locate images everywhere in the soundstage EXCEPT from the actual physical location of the speakers.

I agree with this except maybe your exception.  My speakers routinely disappear with content that presents as a wall of sound but can also be spooky given the right recordings (eg Tool “Chocolate Chip Trip”).  Speaker placement isn’t going to magically create space in a recording but it can influence how effectively what’s in the recording is reproduced.

[Letitroll98]

I'm a little confused by this entire thread.  If my speakers aren't completely disappearing there's something way wrong in the set up or the recording.  For example my ultra cheapskate 2.1 TV setup with Athena BS1 speakers, some old Polk sub and an 90s Nakamichi receiver.  I never hear anything that seems to come from the speakers.  In the big rig with well recorded music even sounds completely panned to one side is disembodied from the speakers, behind and around the speaker.  That being said poorly recorded stereo, think early Beatles or Stones, does come right out of the speakers with no floating soundstage and I just accept it.  But if that happens with good recordings I'm very upset and go looking for what's wrong.  This has been true for 4 decades over more residences and systems than I can count.  And funny, the speakers I had the hardest time creating this illusion with were Maggie MMGs, both modded and stock.  I was constantly changing speaker placement because sounds kept coming out of the speakers.  What's wrong with me?

[Rusty Jefferson]

....That being said poorly recorded stereo, think early Beatles or Stones, does come right out of the speakers with no floating soundstage and I just accept it.....

That's what you should be hearing if the engineers placed an instrument of voice there. No multi-track studio recording (that wasn't manipulated with phase trickery) should present outside of or behind the loudspeakers. It should be presented between the speakers in the traditional sense of a phantom center image. There is no fader on the mixing console for placing an instrument outside the speakers or behind them. The disappearing act with room wide, deep behind the speakers soundstage should only happen with a live, minimally mic'ed recording made in a venue large enough to create late reflections that introduce a time delay. This creates the ambiance that lets us know the positioning of the singers and musicians as the microphones act in a similar manner as our ears.

[Early B.]

This thread underscores the problem with discussing audio -- everyone has different ideas of what "disappearing" means.

Let's cut to the bottom line -- speakers can only truly disappear in your mind. We can talk endlessly about gear, placement, acoustic treatments, etc., but at the end of the day, you desire to be wrapped in a cocoon of sonic bliss, and that ain't gonna occur if you're busy trying to locate instruments within the soundstage and other such audiophilic nonsense.   

[Tyson]

That's what you should be hearing if the engineers placed an instrument of voice there. No multi-track studio recording (that wasn't manipulated with phase trickery) should present outside of or behind the loudspeakers. It should be presented between the speakers in the traditional sense of a phantom center image. There is no fader on the mixing console for placing an instrument outside the speakers or behind them. The disappearing act with room wide, deep behind the speakers soundstage should only happen with a live, minimally mic'ed recording made in a venue large enough to create late reflections that introduce a time delay. This creates the ambiance that lets us know the positioning of the singers and musicians as the microphones act in a similar manner as our ears.

Again, this is one of the advantages of fully OB speakers.  They  expand the soundstage to the sides of the speakers and also behind the speakers.  Due to their unique figure 8 radiation pattern.


But it has to be full OB on the midrange and the tweeter.  This is why the NX-Ottica is so excellent at it.