[tomlinmgt]

My journey in the hifi hobby has been going on for about about fifteen years now. About a year and a half into my journey, I discovered the importance of optimizing room acoustics and speaker/listening spot placement. Consequently, improving both of those parameters revealed to me the magic of floating, well defined sonic images in a multi-dimensional sound stage. Because I started out with a decent size (16x20x8) quasi-dedicated, acoustically treated listening space and currently have a larger (19x26x8 vaulted to 14) dedicated and acoustically treated space with total freedom to locate speakers and listening spot whereever I want, and also prefer speakers that have the ability to provide tactile, life like dynamics and sound stage, I've pretty much always gone for big speakers.  Altec 19, JBL L250, Acoustat Spectra 22, Magnepan MG-IIIa, Klipsch Epic CF-4, Infintiy QLS-1, GR Research LS6...you get the point.  I've messed around with stand mounts a little, but mostly just in secondary systems in a spare bedroom where I couldn't optimize the acoustics. I've been to plenty of hifi shows, gatherings, and have listened to others' systems...some of them consisting of what would be considered very high end equipment.  What I don't believe I've ever heard is a speaker that just totally disappears...meaning I have never perceived ZERO sonic content coming directly from the physical location of the speaker.  It may have been a small fraction of the sonic content in the recording, but at some point I'd be able to locate a vocal/instrument/sound effect from the exact location of the speaker in the physical space of the room.  I've always figured that's just where it's mixed/captured in the recording to be.  But I've often wondered if my big speakers simply can't totally "disappear" because of their size. I hear it so often stated that stand mounts are the kings when it comes to image and sound stage resolution, but my experience with stand mounts is much more limited compard to the "big dogs".  Are there speakers that totally disappear...like NEVER having any sonic content come from their exact physical location? Or will you eventually hear SOMETHING coming from the location of the speaker simply because that's where it happens to be mixed to be located or captured in the sound stage?

[marcos overload brazil]

My journey in the hifi hobby has been going on for about about fifteen years now. About a year and a half into my journey, I discovered the importance of optimizing room acoustics and speaker/listening spot placement. Consequently, improving both of those parameters revealed to me the magic of floating, well defined sonic images in a multi-dimensional sound stage. Because I started out with a decent size (16x20x8) quasi-dedicated, acoustically treated listening space and currently have a larger (19x26x8 vaulted to 14) dedicated and acoustically treated space with total freedom to locate speakers and listening spot whereever I want, and also prefer speakers that have the ability to provide tactile, life like dynamics and sound stage, I've pretty much always gone for big speakers.  Altec 19, JBL L250, Acoustat Spectra 22, Magnepan MG-IIIa, Klipsch Epic CF-4, Infintiy QLS-1, GR Research LS6...you get the point.  I've messed around with stand mounts a little, but mostly just in secondary systems in a spare bedroom where I couldn't optimize the acoustics. I've been to plenty of hifi shows, gatherings, and have listened to others' systems...some of them consisting of what would be considered very high end equipment.  What I don't believe I've ever heard is a speaker that just totally disappears...meaning I have never perceived ZERO sonic content coming directly from the physical location of the speaker.  It may have been a small fraction of the sonic content in the recording, but at some point I'd be able to locate a vocal/instrument/sound effect from the exact location of the speaker in the physical space of the room.  I've always figured that's just where it's mixed/captured in the recording to be.  But I've often wondered if my big speakers simply can't totally "disappear" because of their size. I hear it so often stated that stand mounts are the kings when it comes to image and sound stage resolution, but my experience with stand mounts is much more limited compard to the "big dogs".  Are there speakers that totally disappear...like NEVER having any sonic content come from their exact physical location? Or will you eventually hear SOMETHING coming from the location of the speaker simply because that's where it happens to be mixed to be located or captured in the sound stage?

HI....

I think it's impossible.

The sound source could be an elephant or a speaker
but the sound always comes from somewhere.

The sound always comes from somewhere
consequently, hearing a sound without the source
would only be possible inside the head, in a dream.

If you go to a live show: the sound sources are
there, it could be a person or an instrument.

The sound always comes from somewhere.

 

[walkern]

I heard Dave Wilson demo his original Watt speakers (sitting atop entec subs) at the 1985 Consumer Electronics show in a HUGE room with Audio Research electronics. He played Caverna Magica from Andreas Vollenweider (on vinyl... no CDs yet) and there was absolutely NO sense of the sound coming from the speakers. It was AMAZING. I've never heard anything like it before or since. So I guess it is possible, but the odds of it happening in a typical listening room with most recordings is near zero. I think the odds improve a bit with dipole speakers, and box speakers wherein the drivers are aligned and crossed over to keep their timing aligned or coherent. So you might wanna give a listen to some of the medium sized Vandersteens or Maggies? Just MHO.

[tomlinmgt]

I heard Dave Wilson demo his original Watt speakers (sitting atop entec subs) at the 1985 Consumer Electronics show in a HUGE room with Audio Research electronics. He played Caverna Magica from Andreas Vollenweider (on vinyl... no CDs yet) and there was absolutely NO sense of the sound coming from the speakers. It was AMAZING. I've never heard anything like it before or since. So I guess it is possible, but the odds of it happening in a typical listening room with most recordings is near zero. I think the odds improve a bit with dipole speakers, and box speakers wherein the drivers are aligned and crossed over to keep their timing aligned or coherent. So you might wanna give a listen to some of the medium sized Vandersteens or Maggies? Just MHO.

Vandersteens (2ci) are the speakers that made me aware of the importance of improving system performance with proper placement and acoustic treatments. Immediately after the Vandersteens came Magnepan MMG's which took image resolution and sound stage dimensionality to the next level. More recently, I tried Vandersteen 3a Signatures and for sure, all of those do a fantastic job with the disappearing act. Perhaps the best disappearing act I've had in the collection yet has been from Aerial Acoustics 10t mkii pulled about 8.5' from the front wall...but all of them still not TOTALLY transparent.

[NIGHTFALL1970]

I just received my GR Research Bullies, and they are the first speakers that I have owned that actually disappear. The sound comes from the front wall and sounds like it is higher than the speakers.

[Rusty Jefferson]

It is not difficult to do, particularly in a dedicated room that size. The caveat is that there was nothing placed into the mix in the individual speakers. A good example of this is 3 channel jazz recordings from the late 50s and 60s. Drums in the left channel, bass in the right, and soloist (guitar, piano) in the center. In this scenario, there will always be sound "on the speakers".  If an engineer "placed" an instrument or voice in the left/right speaker, it will always be there.  The disappearing act (transparency) is possible when music is recorded live in an acoustic space. Because none of the instruments of vocalists are playing/singing directly into a microphone (near field, like in a studio) there is inherent time delay in the sound reaching the microphone. That time delay establishes the instrument or singer location in the reproduced soundstage, giving us width, depth, and most importantly image specificity. The sound should not just be between the speakers, but behind them to the width of the room.

As mentioned above, speakers with wide, even dispersion through the crossover region(s), time and phase coherence, and low diffraction is the place to start.

[Early B.]

I just received my GR Research Bullies, and they are the first speakers that I have owned that actually disappear. The sound comes from the front wall and sounds like it is higher than the speakers.

I think the OP is asking something different -- speakers that truly disappear to the point where you can't determine where the sound is coming from. Yeah, I agree with the previous posters -- that's not possible with two speakers, and even if it were, it would sound unnatural. You would have to set up a surround sound music system to achieve it. That was somewhat popular 25 years ago, but it didn't catch on. 

[tomlinmgt]

I think the OP is asking something different -- speakers that truly disappear to the point where you can't determine where the sound is coming from. Yeah, I agree with the previous posters -- that's not possible with two speakers, and even if it were, it would sound unnatural. You would have to set up a surround sound music system to achieve it. That was somewhat popular 25 years ago, but it didn't catch on.

Yes, a sound stage that extends from the speakers rearward to the front wall and that reaches from wall to wall...sometimes beyond the physical margins of those walls...and that is taller than the speakers and sometimes comes out in front of the frontal plane of the speakers is something I've been experiencing clear on back to my first set of Maggies (MMG's) around my second year in the hobby.  I think Rusty may be on to something. I listen to studio recordings mostly, and if it's jazz it's jazz fusion (so it's multi-tracked and mixed). Pretty much any live recording I listen to will have been recorded from the board rather than an acoustic performance that's captured with strategically located overhead mics. So maybe someone can throw me a bone and recommend a few recordings that are captured in such a way that I shouldn't be hearing anything coming directly from the physical location of the speakers.

Now, to take this a step further there have been times.when it seems the speakers have totally disappeared and I'll hear some little something coming from the proximity of the speaker, but if I pay close enough attention to it I can detect it's actually a little bit behind the speaker.  Seems like it becomes a little more challenging to identify that the sound is actually being portrayed behind the speaker when the speakers are over five feet tall and have a significant physical presence in the room. But I suppose that starts wading into the realm of psychoacoustics...which I find immensely fascinating.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Electronics certainly plays a role as does the recording.  As I went from mid fi to hi fi gear, I got more of the disappearing act of speakers. 

The Exogal Comet that I reviewed for the company had a 3D sound stage and it seemed like surround sound.  It was uncanny.  I find that the AVA DVA DAC/pre is similar but not as 3D as the Comet.

Most music disappears with my Magnepan 1.6 speakers and adding dual subs also helped to contribute to this.

[Early B.]

But I suppose that starts wading into the realm of psychoacoustics...which I find immensely fascinating.

Yeah, psychoacoustics -- I wonder how much of the music we actually hear vs. what our brain is interpreting about what we hear. I can envision the possibility that my system sounds horrible (based on measurements, etc.), but my brain is saying, "This is what your fantastic audio system is trying to convey to you sonically and emotionally..."

Here's an interesting grab from Wikipedia on sound localization that may help explain the challenges of perceiving music in a typical room:

The brain uses subtle differences in loudness, tone, and timing between the two ears to allow us to localize sound sources. Localization can be described in terms of three-dimensional position: the azimuth or horizontal angle, the zenith or vertical angle, and the distance (for static sounds) or velocity (for moving sounds). Humans are adept at detecting direction horizontally but less so in vertical directions due to the ears being placed symmetrically.

Our speakers are closer to the floor than the ceiling, so the perception of the "height" of the sound tends to be compromised, maybe???   

[Tyson]

This is why I like good OB speakers.  With a good OB speaker, the sound is less 'stuck' to the speaker.

[FullRangeMan]

Most music disappears with my Magnepan 1.6 speakers and adding dual subs also helped to contribute to this.

Of course they are 84dB.

[FullRangeMan]

This is why I like good OB speakers.  With a good OB speaker, the sound is less 'stuck' to the speaker.

Iam forced agree with you.

[tomlinmgt]

This is why I like good OB speakers.  With a good OB speaker, the sound is less 'stuck' to the speaker.

Keyword "less". I've had a few open baffle speakers including X-Statiks.  They were all very good at the disappearing act, but still not TOTALLY transparent. The first set I built used Alpha 15a's in an H-frame as the base, a Beta 12-LTA and BG Neo3 with an open back. I remember listening to Dr John's Gris Gris album right after I got them dialed in and it was spooky how dimensional and layered it all sounded. It really made an impression on me at the time and I've been wanting to get back into DIY OB lately as I reminisce on that experience. But honestly, I can't say that OB, for me, has demonstrated clear superiority over a well designed direct radiating design when it comes to sound stage depth and image resolution. Maybe I just haven't had the right open baffle design. The x-Tremes I heard at LSAF back around '19 were pretty phenomenal, after all. Wish I'd been able to listen to more than just two songs on them.  They positioned  my expectations for the X-Statiks maybe a little too high. LOL. But that's certainly not the fault of the X-Statiks. They were very good, just a little underwhelming for me compared to what I'd been listening to.

[Tyson]

IME, the NX-Oticas actually image better than the NX-Tremes because they are open on top and the sound just sort of floats free in a way that the bigger baffle can't.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Of course they are 84dB.

I was not recommending them but just making a statement.

[tomlinmgt]

IME, the NX-Oticas actually image better than the NX-Tremes because they are open on top and the sound just sort of floats free in a way that the bigger baffle can't.

I heard Mike L's "sorta" x-Oticas at the same LSAF and was honestly underwhelmed. I'm sure the conditions weren't optimal. 

[Rusty Jefferson]

I've heard several OB designs and don't find most are as transparent as well designed dynamic driver systems that meet the criteria I've already mentioned. The exception for me would be the Linkwitz LX-521, because those meet that criteria. Most OBs and dipole I've heard put a big sometimes holographic image out, but don't have precise localisation. More like a blur of sound. Big and interesting, but not precision specificity, and almost always with sound stuck on the speaker.

No flames at anyone's choice of speakers. We all want to hear different things and have different priorities about what's most important. My systems (2) don't do what the OP wants because of my rooms. However, I have worked with friends who have dedicated rooms and this is priority one for them. I wish I had it but get to experience it with them regularly. It's the best part of listening for us, but not everyone.

[WGH]

Are there speakers that totally disappear...like NEVER having any sonic content come from their exact physical location? Or will you eventually hear SOMETHING coming from the location of the speaker simply because that's where it happens to be mixed to be located or captured in the sound stage?

My Salk HT2-TL speakers pretty much disappear all the time, so did the Fritz Carbon 7 speakers I had on loan.



"Is the center speaker on?" is the first question asked by people hearing my stereo for the first time. Of course it is off and used only for movies.


The disappearing act is a combination of many factors. The amazingly accurate speaker crossover designs by Dennis Murphy in the Salks and by Fritz in the Carbon 7s, lucky room acoustics and the simple but precise electronic design in the Van Alstine preamp and amp.

In May 2021 I wrote a review of the PS Audio Stellar M1200 monoblock amps. In the review I wrote:

"The AVA SET 400 images better than the M1200 monoblocks. Yes, the monoblocks have more separation with space between the speakers and imaging is OK but the SET 400 puts the performers in your room with a solid center image with space around them... Monoblock amps must be meticulously balanced to achieve a solid center image, I think if anything goes out of spec then the image gets fuzzy."

[tomlinmgt]

My Salk HT2-TL speakers pretty much disappear all the time, so did the Fritz Carbon 7 speakers I had on loan.



"Is the center speaker on?" is the first question asked by people hearing my stereo for the first time. Of course it is off and used only for movies.


The disappearing act is a combination of many factors. The amazingly accurate speaker crossover designs by Dennis Murphy in the Salks and by Fritz in the Carbon 7s, lucky room acoustics and the simple but precise electronic design in the Van Alstine preamp and amp.

In May 2021 I wrote a review of the PS Audio Stellar M1200 monoblock amps. In the review I wrote:

"The AVA SET 400 images better than the M1200 monoblocks. Yes, the monoblocks have more separation with space between the speakers and imaging is OK but the SET 400 puts the performers in your room with a solid center image with space around them... Monoblock amps must be meticulously balanced to achieve a solid center image, I think if anything goes out of spec then the image gets fuzzy."

Just to be clear, I'm talking about imaging that goes way beyond just getting a strong center image. I get a strong center image in my living room system where the acoustics are not great at all and the speakers (JBL Studio 590) are within 6" of the front wall. What I'm asking about is a presentation of sonic content in the recording that seems to locate images everywhere in the soundstage EXCEPT from the actual physical location of the speakers. I'm starting to think it's dependent on the recording more than anything, and I'm just not familiar with or haven't heard the right recordings. Sure, I can play stuff like Caverna Magica, Birds, Chocolate Trip Trip, etc..all that stuff that not only has images floating but also moving seamlessly across and even fore and aft in the sound stage..but at some point in the song I seem to always eventually hear SOMETHING coming directly from one or both of the speakers' precise location in space.