"Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"

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AllanS

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"Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« on: 29 Dec 2024, 02:20 pm »
It may be old news, but I came by this tutorial about using higher sample rates in recording and mixing by way of a Google search for "what is digital harshness" that landed on a Reddit thread*.  I had no clue that there was any controversy surrounding the topic of digital harshness, but why would it be different than pretty much any other audio topic?
Assuming the posters knew what they were talking about, I found the discussion to be really helpful background of digital audio recording and playback.  I'll need to watch the video many more times to fully digest it all but, at the risk of inviting measurement wars, the basics are well demonstrated and communicated through the use of live spectral data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCwIsT0X8M

*Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedProduction/comments/1051l7n/please_explain_digital_harshness_what_does_it/

WGH

Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #1 on: 29 Dec 2024, 08:06 pm »
The video is well done and a great resource for musicians although I only understood half. All of us music lovers would benefit from clearer, less distorted recordings. The video has music samples that are recorded in higher resolutions. Whether a listener can hear the difference depends on too many factors to list. I didn't hear any difference but that is probably the result of my less than average quality playback chain. A YouTube video is not an ideal source, the Realtek sound chip in my noisy computer motherboard is not hi-fidelity and my computer speakers are the old single driver Logitech Z560 THX Certified speakers from a 4.1 gaming setup I bought in 2001.

I recently had an audio discussion with an old friend. He is 79 and all his music is on his phone, he streams Spotify. I kind of doubt high sample rate music is on his mind.

I have been exploring high sample rate playback for years and have convinced myself I can hear the difference. Carmen Gomes Inc on the Sound Liason label has many excellent hi-res albums at very affordable prices if you want to experience true hi-res. Her album "Thousand Shades of Blue" is only $14.00. Twelve different hi-res formats are available to download.
https://soundliaison.com/products/carmen-gomes-inc-thousand-shades-of-blue-revisited




Thousand Shades of Blue - Revisited


"Remixing and remastering Thousand Shades of Blue, has been nothing short of transformative. Opening up those sessions felt like traveling back in time, yet with the knowledge and refined sensibilities we've gained. Looking back, we realized just how much our approach to mixing and mastering has evolved. At Sound Liaison, we now embrace a philosophy of minimalism, using fewer tools on individual tracks, preserving the raw beauty of the original performances.

"One of the most striking revelations came when we processed the original tracks through our meticulously crafted analog mastering chain. This system, a labor of love honed over years, gave the music a newfound sense of depth and vibrancy. The spatial arrangement of the musicians on the soundstage became more precise, enhancing the listener's sense of immersion, while the overall presence and authenticity of the sound reached new heights.

"A major decision in our remix process was to eliminate all compressors from the original mix. This approach allowed for more headroom and breathing space, enabling the natural dynamics of each musician to shine in their full detail. The music now flows with an organic energy that captures the intensity and subtlety of every performance.

"We also upgraded the reverb, opting for a refined, state-of-the-art reverb routed through our analog summing mixer to a pristine 32-bit, 768kHz resolution. This enhancement has profoundly opened up the sound, allowing the reverb to integrate seamlessly with the music and bring an extraordinary sense of presence. The reverb now contributes to an even more vivid, three-dimensional soundstage that makes the music feel fully alive.

"Furthermore, we’ve pushed the boundaries of digital fidelity by remastering the album at 768kHz-32-bit, an astonishingly high resolution, over 17 times the standard 44.1kHz used for CD audio. This high sample rate reveals unparalleled harmonic richness and authenticity. While some of these nuances may only be fully appreciated by the most discerning listeners, the enhanced clarity of the soundstage is evident to everyone".

-Chief Engineer, Sound Liaison - Frans de Rond
-Producer & AR manager, Sound Liaison - Peter Bjørnild

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #2 on: 30 Dec 2024, 06:18 pm »
.... I had no clue that there was any controversy surrounding the topic of digital harshness, but why would it be different than pretty much any other audio topic?....
Do you mean controversy among the pop/rock recording pros and added digital artifacts they put into their mixes while 'creating' a record? That appears to be the discussion in the thread and point of the video. As someone in that discussion pointed out, there's plenty of records that were recorded analog and are harsh as all get out. When you Googled digital harshness was it in regards to current trends in recording, or more broadly why most/all digital sounds harsh on your home stereo, and were looking for ways to eliminate the harshness?

AllanS

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Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #3 on: 31 Dec 2024, 12:01 am »
The video is well done and a great resource for musicians although I only understood half. All of us music lovers would benefit from clearer, less distorted recordings. The video has music samples that are recorded in higher resolutions. Whether a listener can hear the difference depends on too many factors to list. I didn't hear any difference but that is probably the result of my less than average quality playback chain.

It's interesting that you keyed on it being a great resource for musicians.  I assumed that what was presented as a problem for recording would also be a problem for playback. But now I'm wondering...
At least you heard something.  I got so hung up with the spectrum analyzer that I didn't hear anything.
Thanks for recommending Carmen Gomes and Sound Liason.  I have a couple PS Audio DSD down loads and would like to add a few others.  Playback is limited to a desktop and Foobar so I haven't given them much of a listen.  I especially appreciated the closing line from the label's statement "This high sample rate reveals unparalleled harmonic richness and authenticity. While some of these nuances may only be fully appreciated by the most discerning listeners, the enhanced clarity of the soundstage is evident to everyone".  I'm not going to pick up on the nuances but hope to hear the enhanced clarity.

Do you mean controversy among the pop/rock recording pros and added digital artifacts they put into their mixes while 'creating' a record? That appears to be the discussion in the thread and point of the video. As someone in that discussion pointed out, there's plenty of records that were recorded analog and are harsh as all get out. When you Googled digital harshness was it in regards to current trends in recording, or more broadly why most/all digital sounds harsh on your home stereo, and were looking for ways to eliminate the harshness?

I'll have to re-read the thread. I blew through it pretty quickly and probably missed the point but I thought there was a general disagreement about the presence of artifacts and whether or not they were audible.  Either way it was really the video that got my attention.  But, as mentioned above, it may be for the wrong reasons as I understood it as sample rates being a potential playback problem as well as a recording problem.

My reason for looking up digital harshness in the first place is to understand what it is so I might recognize the presence or absence of such harshness.  I don't know what it sounds like, what to listen for, or how it effects what we hear.  But IF what was shown in the video is evidence of it's presence I can certainly understand how it would affect what is heard, which supports the notion that no matter how good your playback chain is, it's not going to sound any better than the source.

WGH

Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #4 on: 31 Dec 2024, 08:39 pm »
I have a couple PS Audio DSD down loads and would like to add a few others.  Playback is limited to a desktop and Foobar so I haven't given them much of a listen.

My reason for looking up digital harshness in the first place is to understand what it is so I might recognize the presence or absence of such harshness.  I don't know what it sounds like, what to listen for, or how it effects what we hear.  But IF what was shown in the video is evidence of it's presence I can certainly understand how it would affect what is heard, which supports the notion that no matter how good your playback chain is, it's not going to sound any better than the source.


To my ears, DSD eliminates a lot of the harshness of PCM which is why I upsample all music to DSD256. How PCM is converted to DSD is important. I use HQPlayer, a state-of-the-art player that runs on a high powered music server. Using HQPlayer and building a music server is complicated and expensive plus it limits what DAC is used if you want to hear the results of your efforts. Even then the improvements made are subtle and probably would be impossible to hear on a desktop/foobar system.

If the sound quality improvements of higher rate samplerates and DSD was obvious and undeniable then everyone in our audio club would ditch their CDs and only listen to downloaded hi-res music and ripped CDs that are upsampled like I do. But they don't (what's wrong with them, anyway?). Different systems, different ears, different priorities.

Actually two of the guys in our group upsample all their music using a different method - a PS Audio DirectStream DAC MK2 which by design converts all music to DSD256. Three other guys in our group have chosen a different path - an ANK NOS DAC (Audio Note Kit) that is designed to only play 44.1 MHz/16 bit up to 96 MHz/24 bit music, no upsampling, no DSD and no high samplerate music at all. Both the PS Audio and ANK DACs sound excellent in their systems.


If you are intrigued and want to learn more, I put together a digital music playback primer:

An Upsampling Primer or Why Make More Bits?

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183465.msg1926276#msg1926276

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #5 on: 31 Dec 2024, 08:56 pm »
I find that when I upsample the music is smoother.  It is DAC dependent.  My Luxman DAC does DSD 512 but it sounds best at 352 and 384.

PA

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Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #6 on: 1 Jan 2025, 12:58 pm »
I agree this up-to-date version is even better than the original. The voice sounds even better, no small achievement as this album is often referred to as one of the best vocal recordings in existence.
The video is well done and a great resource for musicians although I only understood half. All of us music lovers would benefit from clearer, less distorted recordings. The video has music samples that are recorded in higher resolutions. Whether a listener can hear the difference depends on too many factors to list. I didn't hear any difference but that is probably the result of my less than average quality playback chain. A YouTube video is not an ideal source, the Realtek sound chip in my noisy computer motherboard is not hi-fidelity and my computer speakers are the old single driver Logitech Z560 THX Certified speakers from a 4.1 gaming setup I bought in 2001.

I recently had an audio discussion with an old friend. He is 79 and all his music is on his phone, he streams Spotify. I kind of doubt high sample rate music is on his mind.

I have been exploring high sample rate playback for years and have convinced myself I can hear the difference. Carmen Gomes Inc on the Sound Liason label has many excellent hi-res albums at very affordable prices if you want to experience true hi-res. Her album "Thousand Shades of Blue" is only $14.00. Twelve different hi-res formats are available to download.
https://soundliaison.com/products/carmen-gomes-inc-thousand-shades-of-blue-revisited




Thousand Shades of Blue - Revisited


"Remixing and remastering Thousand Shades of Blue, has been nothing short of transformative. Opening up those sessions felt like traveling back in time, yet with the knowledge and refined sensibilities we've gained. Looking back, we realized just how much our approach to mixing and mastering has evolved. At Sound Liaison, we now embrace a philosophy of minimalism, using fewer tools on individual tracks, preserving the raw beauty of the original performances.

"One of the most striking revelations came when we processed the original tracks through our meticulously crafted analog mastering chain. This system, a labor of love honed over years, gave the music a newfound sense of depth and vibrancy. The spatial arrangement of the musicians on the soundstage became more precise, enhancing the listener's sense of immersion, while the overall presence and authenticity of the sound reached new heights.

"A major decision in our remix process was to eliminate all compressors from the original mix. This approach allowed for more headroom and breathing space, enabling the natural dynamics of each musician to shine in their full detail. The music now flows with an organic energy that captures the intensity and subtlety of every performance.

"We also upgraded the reverb, opting for a refined, state-of-the-art reverb routed through our analog summing mixer to a pristine 32-bit, 768kHz resolution. This enhancement has profoundly opened up the sound, allowing the reverb to integrate seamlessly with the music and bring an extraordinary sense of presence. The reverb now contributes to an even more vivid, three-dimensional soundstage that makes the music feel fully alive.

"Furthermore, we’ve pushed the boundaries of digital fidelity by remastering the album at 768kHz-32-bit, an astonishingly high resolution, over 17 times the standard 44.1kHz used for CD audio. This high sample rate reveals unparalleled harmonic richness and authenticity. While some of these nuances may only be fully appreciated by the most discerning listeners, the enhanced clarity of the soundstage is evident to everyone".

-Chief Engineer, Sound Liaison - Frans de Rond
-Producer & AR manager, Sound Liaison - Peter Bjørnild

PA

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 167
Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #7 on: 7 Feb 2025, 04:28 pm »
fine review in P.F. by R. Paul;
Quote
Carmen Gomes Inc., Thousand Shades of Blue—HRES Revisited. Sound Liaison 2012 2025 (96kHz, 32-bit DXD) HERE; https://soundliaison.com/

After a dozen years, Sound Liaison decided to revisit and remaster this excellent album from Carmen Gomes and her band. And, yes, they've made a very nice improvement in sound quality over the original 2012 release. The new remastered release sounds much more open, far less processed, and much more natural. (Reissue cover on left, original on right.)

About this new release, Sound Liaison chief engineer, Fran de Rond, and producer Peter Bjørnild, say:

"A major decision in our remix process was to eliminate all compressors from the original mix. This approach allowed for more headroom and breathing space, enabling the natural dynamics of each musician to shine in their full detail. The music now flows with an organic energy that captures the intensity and subtlety of every performance.

"Perhaps the greatest beneficiary of the remastered sound is singer Carmen Gomes..."

And this is decidedly true. Carmen Gomes sings with supreme attention to each syllable, imparting meaning and emotion with each carefully chosen inflection. Always perfectly on-pitch, always stretching to extract the fullness of meaning in the lyrics, Gomes is a great phttps://www.audiocircle.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/quote.giferformer. This new mastering grants to the listener a clearer window on her voice than we heard in the original, and a allows for a greater appreciation for her artistry.

The entire soundstage received a thorough scrubbing in the process of this new mastering. In addition to eliminating the compression, Fran took the file into the analog domain for mastering. This trip from the original 24-bit 96khz file into analog and then re-digitization at 768kHz-32-bit has worked wonders in opening up the harmonic nuances that were captured by the original recording, but not revealed through the original mastering process. I've never been a big fan of multiple format conversions, but the results heard here are compelling.

Yes, all these improvements are clearly audible, definitely beneficial, and very welcome. If, like me, you admire the artistry of Carmen Gomes, you will welcome the sonic improvements of this new mastering. Great work!


WGH

Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #8 on: 7 Feb 2025, 10:19 pm »
fine review in P.F. by R. Paul;

Here is R. Paul's Positive Feedback review of the Carmen Gomes album

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/music-reviews/recent-finds-28-eudora-hunnia-yarlung/

PA

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Re: "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?"
« Reply #9 on: 23 Feb 2025, 11:22 am »
And here is a new, in depth article on the mastering process, with a free sample of the old and the new version:

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/music-reviews/thousand-shades-of-blue/