Designing a more affordable RM/X

caesar148 · « **on:** 16 May 2005, 01:57 am »

The RM/X is Brian's ultimate speker but unfortunately the price of these speakers is out of reach of many people includng mine. The primary reason for the high cost if I understand correctly is the technical challenge in manufacturing these speakers. After reading John Casler's posting "Adventures in HIGH PERFORMANCE Listening - VMPS Tweak Update", I wonder if Bran could design a more affordable RM/X with all the sonic qualities but none of the high cost. IMHO, the present price and looks comes with a pretty low WAF and OAF (owner acceptance factor). It would be nice if the Rm/X came in a finish other than black like african ebony, oak or rosewood. Just a thought.

jermmd · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 May 2005, 06:20 am »

How about the RM30's with a good subwoofer?

Joe M.

ekovalsky · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 May 2005, 07:39 am »

The cost of the RM/X is nearly all the cabinets. The drivers, binding posts, and crossover parts (other than premium caps, the cost of which is passed on to the buyer as an upgrade fee), and wire are all inexpensive. Even if you upgrade the bass wire to Analysis Plus silver, there is only 2-3 ft per side.

Having owned the (non-MLS) RM-40 and seen the RM-30 in person, there is a huge difference in enclosure and finish quality which more than justifies the higher price. The MLS cabinets are nice veneered boxes but cannot be compared to the RM/X.

Both my wife and I were very satisfied with the cosmetics of the RM/X, and we are both quite picky. It is a very attractive speaker, much more so in the flesh than in photos. The piano black lacquer is superbly done -- Dorne may be sloth but he does top quality work. It will not look out of place amidst contemporary or traditional decor. On the other hand, the "piano black" I've seen on other VMPS speakers and subs was not good. To me it looked like black automotive spray paint over MDF. I know one owner's "piano black" peeled right off when he removed his lapel tweak prior to selling

That would never happen with the RM/X, and not just because the lapel tweak is unnecessary with these speakers!

The RM/X could be made even more attractive by better hardware selection, i.e. black hex screws for the drivers instead of wood and drywall screws

. Concealing the green PCBs of the planars would be another positive aesthetic change. Cut pieces of black electrical tape will do the trick, but there are obviously more elegant solutions. Still, it is by far the best looking VMPS speaker EVER and I've seen all models since the SuperTower/R from 20 years ago. If I were a B&M dealer carrying many lines, I would not hesitate displaying the RM/X among B&W, Sonus Faber, Wilson, etc. The MLS cabinets would fit in with Von Schweikerts, PSBs, etc. I'd keep the non-MLS stuff in a poorly lit room

Anyway, I don't think the RM/X could be built cheaper. Sure you can take away the rotating, isolated tweeter pod; the complex diffraction-defeating baffle; and the gorgeous HDF enclosure. And the you can shorten the line array and use smaller woofers, saving a little bit on drivers. You are left with the RM-30. It's certainly an great performer at its price point, but I think the RM/X is a much better value. As I've posted here before, as you ascend the VMPS product line the value tends to increase. This is in direct contrast to most other brands (such as Alon/Nola) where the flagship models are priced silly and buying used or at a courtesy price is the only way to obtain them.

JoshK · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 May 2005, 01:57 pm »

Couple of notes on planar cosmetics that might be of interest to some.

I took some black laquer paint and a small brush and painted over the screws and gold rivets. It is amazing how much better this looks. My wife spotted it right away. If you unscrew the planars again some of the paint will come off but you can just touch it up again. Right now I am looking for a better solution by finding appropriate black screws but they need to be fairly thin to fit in the planar holes, which eliminates most machining screws. #6 is too fat. I'll follow up on the size and source when I find them.

Please ignore and disregard italicized text, only here for continuity
Second, I flipped the two nuts/bolts on each planar around so that the head is showing from the front and not the nut end. This reducings the height for which the nut/bolt sticks out and makes it much easier to cover the green portion of the PCB.

Another idea I had was to get a large piece of black felt and cut a long and narrow strip and in this strip cut rectangle just large enough for the planar portion to stick through so that the rest of the planar is covered by the felt 'dressing'. This could look nice and might even have a nice dispersion reducing affect but only minor HF stuff. Could do it with Leather too if you or your spouse is handy with sewing.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 May 2005, 03:02 pm »

Some comment on the above posts is necessary.

Josh, if you turn the screws around on the Neo panels the nuts will short against adjacent traces and the impedance will change or the panel won't work at all. We have to use magnifying glasses to make sure this doesn't happen with the screw heads on the underside of the panel. You should take out all the panels and send them to use for rebuilding, you have ruined them.

As for fasteners, the "grabber" woodscrews are the best we have found over the years. They don't work loose like many fancier screws and they seldom break when tightened hard. If you don't like the appearance I don't have an answer for you.

Eric, as for drivers and parts being inexpensive, you've got to be kidding. You can't buy our mid panels at any price, and with the rebuild labor involved plus extensive testing, they cost out at $80ea. We have to import our own woofer and PR cones and either handassemble ourselves or have Misco do it. We have had many requests from DIY'ers and other manufacturers to buy our woofers and we can't do at any price below $200 ea, so we don't do it at all. Those cast-basket, chrome-plated woofers from China you see in competing systems have no first octave bass (50Hz rolloffs!) and many other problems. They sure look nice and only cost around $30-$40. We use a $100 tweeter. The binding posts are selected because they are solid brass and can be tightened with a 1/2" nutdriver without breaking. Try that with the truly awful Edison Price binding posts. Our teflon wire is not cheap and we use Analysis Plus copper wire standard and silver wire as an upgrade. I don't see that in competing speakers. And so on.

The RMX is not the top of our line. The ST3SRE is. I dare say it outperforms Eric's Alon's, but he'll never know. They currently retail for $21,900pr with bass amp and electronic crossover.

You haven't seen mls black lacquer on an RM40--ten coats with hand sanding inbetween, takes over a week to apply. and another week to dry.

I could go on, but why bother.

JoshK · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 May 2005, 03:07 pm »

Thanks for the warning Brian. I actually haven't powered them up yet with the panel screws flipped around. I won't. I did pay attention to making sure I didn't short anything but I'll trust that they it could. Actually come to think of it, I did power 4 of the panels this way for about 5 minutes.....hmmm....

I am sorry for interjecting info that may damage speakers. I am sorry for this, I am certain you probably hate it when those of us DIYer do this. I should have verified with you that this was a good idea.

Can you tell me what size those screws are? I stripped one by accident and need to replace it.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 May 2005, 03:26 pm »

The panel screws are #4 by 3/8" and hard to find. Send all the panels back to us for testing. The lands between the traces are less than 1/64" and you cannot see by eye whether there is a short or not.

The screws attaching the panels to their cutouts are special order #4 by 3/4" full thread. Do not drill out the panels to accept larger screws, the metal chaff will be attracted into the magnet structure and cause huge problems.

ekovalsky · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 May 2005, 03:36 pm »

Big B, when I said the drivers weren't 'expensive' I meant that they are not ultra costly like Focal, TAD, etc. They make up a relatively small percentage of the speaker's actual cost.

As for the other parts, I did't imply they were of sub-par quality. The binding posts are tough and effective and I cannot complain about the wire.

I haven't seen the MLS piano black. I'm sure it is a huge improvement.

Also I didn't realize the ST3SRE was still in production. I'm not aware of anyone here owning it, although obviously not all VMPS customers are represented here. I auditioned the ST3 speaker (before I could afford it) at Dynamic Sound and was impressed. The dipole planar array and woofer arrays are big advantages over the other systems. It could be even better if the single Raven ribbon tweeter (good choice!) were replaced with a short 3-4' line of them so there was reasonable vertical dispersion. And a two piece per side configuration would greatly increase flexibility in room positioning to get good bass and imaging simultaenously.

By the way, the "cheap" Alnico midranges, and the Seas Excel woofers, in the Alons measure perfectly flat from 100hz - 4khz in room. And from what I can tell, they have essentially unlimited dynamic capabilities. Same with the line array of Ravens. The bass towers are flat to below 20hz in my room at 120dB. The PR bass systems of the RM/X and RM-40 cut off below 32hz in the same space.

CornellAlum · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 May 2005, 04:41 pm »

Just a quick note regarding mls black piano finish...it is incredible. It is extremely shiny and just beautiful, and looks nothing like black car paint. I honestly didn't expect it to look as good as it does. Nothing on my 626r's looks cheap by any means. Even the most discerning waf problem should be taken care of. You should call the piano black Mercedes Finish, looks just like my dad's Mercedes!
I am 26, no Mercedes for me though I did just get a used Lexus

ScottMayo · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 May 2005, 07:16 pm »

Quote from: Brian Cheney

The RMX is not the top of our line. The ST3SRE is.

I didn't buy your best? Great. Now I have to send these strictly second rate RM/x back, or use them as surrounds or something. Damn. My week is ruined, you realise.

WerTicus · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 May 2005, 07:26 pm »

i recommend suicide

ScottMayo · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 May 2005, 07:33 pm »

Quote from: WerTicus

i recommend suicide

No, I'll punish myself worse than that. I'm getting a Bose radio and tuning it to a drifty FM station that plays disco. Six hours a day. *noddle*

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 May 2005, 08:43 pm »

Scott,

Get a pair of ST3SRE and move your RM/x to surround. You will have a kick ass HT set up! Better yet, throw in a pair of RM40 for rear, RM30C for center, and 4 Larger subs for push/pull Caslerian ultrabass and you will have the best VMPS HT ever.......

John Casler · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 May 2005, 08:46 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi

Scott,

Get a pair of ST3SRE and move your RM/x to surround. You will have a kick ass HT set up! Better yet, throw in a pair of RM40 for rear, RM30C for center, and 4 Larger subs for push/pull Caslerian ultrabass and you will have the best VMPS HT ever.......

Good Idea, but that system "screams" for an RM40 to be used horizontally as a center

brj · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 May 2005, 08:47 pm »

And you'll need to reinforce your floor due to the weight!

What kind of wattage would that system take...

ARAM · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 May 2005, 10:40 pm »

Being able to afford something is a relative subject..being able to buy something is a relative thing..It is a priority of choices..It is when we spend 10 times more on speakers than on cars..it is up to us..It is what makes us happy..

shokunin · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 May 2005, 11:23 pm »

I agree with Eric that the RM/x finish is far and above any other finish including the MLS veneers. The only possible finish that may equal it would be the MLS piano black. However, the RM/x cabinet design itself is quite unique. Every guest in my home has commented on how nice the finish and how unique looking speaker it is (especially with the grills off). My wife actually like the looks and so do I. Now she hated the RM40 boxy look, so it was a win-win for me...

Seriously an affordable RM/x would be the RM30/40 with a couple of largers. Veneering the Rm/x would double the cost of the cabinets due to the manual taping and vacuum bagging that the "swoops" require.

caesar148 · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 May 2005, 02:20 am »

From what I understand the cost of the RM/X cabinet constitute a considerable portion of the cost of the speaker. I believe it is machined from a single block of MDF. Now if Brian kept the electronics and use a normally constructed cabinet and added the tweaks recommended by John Casler to reduce baffle diffraction and lateral dispersion, maybe we can achieve 99% of the RM/X sonic quality, have the option to have various veneered finishing and not break the bank.

Cabinet finishing is very much a personal taste. I have not doubt about the quality of the RM/X finish but it would be nice if came in other types of finish. The availability of black only reminds me of what Henry Ford said about his Model-T Ford - You can have it in any color as long as it is black

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 May 2005, 02:48 am »

The RMX front baffle is 6" thick and machined separately. Its manufacture was the subject of a front page article in Voice Coil magazine (Feb 2004), the speaker industry bible.
The result is a very stable "platform" for the drivers of great acoustic advantage.

We have considered a molded front; the die is about $50k.

BTW retail on the RMX went to $14.9k/pr on Ap 1.

The RMX cabinets currently cost us about $5k each, the rest of the parts about $1500 without the TRT's. Labor of love.

DMF · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 May 2005, 07:43 pm »

Since I'm limited in funds and the size of my listening room, something like this would be perfect for me. A 12" powered subwoofer on the bottom, 6 neo ribbons and a ribbon tweeter. My wife likes the design and the cabinet would be much less expensive to manufacture than the RM/X. High WAF and a relatively small footprint. Maybe a "smaller" version with a 10" subwoofer and only 4 neo ribbons. Just a thought.