Searching for Soundstage

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mkrawcz

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #40 on: 4 Nov 2024, 10:11 am »
I would get yourself a good preamp to put in between your DAC and the amp. Preamps in the signal path tend to create a much better soundstage, especially depth. If you're on a really tight budget, look no further than the Schiit Saga 2.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #41 on: 4 Nov 2024, 05:42 pm »
I've also heard good things about the Freya+ as it lets you play with passive, active, and tube modes all in one device to see how each type affects things like the tone and soundstage of your gear.

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #42 on: 5 Nov 2024, 03:06 pm »
The rabbit hole is an essential part of the audiophile experience. Embrace it. Start with replacing your amp. Your speakers deserve better quality and you'll never achieve anything resembling a decent soundstage with an old Yamaha or cheap chifi amp. Don't waste time and money modifying that stuff. And yeah, be prepared to spend as much on cables as you do on components. That's part of the rabbit hole freefall.     

Dang Earl!  That's an interesting post. It keeps bubbling up and demands to be pondered.

That's a rabbit hole that could lead to $12K turntables, wiring upgrades, new construction, power conditioning, DC pre amps, constantly swapping and upgrading in a never-ending quest for better.
Sigh....  I just can't get excited about going there. 

The X-LS deserve better:  I can't argue that.  I built mine with the basic components and binding cups.  The plan is to build a system worthy of those speakers.  Once I get there, I can consider upgrading the x-ls with better components.  I couldn't justify the expensive components for a system I didn't really have.

Amp:  Yea, you will have a hard time talking me out of the M-45.  Unless it's for an M-80  :wink:
I sold this stuff in the early 80's.  I've always like Yamaha's sound.  The M-Series of amps are not to be taken lightly.  Especially when you pick one up.  My opinion is that one has to spent quite a bit to get better sound than a properly serviced M restored to it's former glory.  But it's gonna take a minute for me and the fine folks at Audiokarma to sort that out. 
That's a different rabbit hole  :wink:
The ChiFi was inspired by CheapAudioMan 'cause I have to have something to listen to while servicing the M-45.  It was really an experiment.  I'm tellin' ya.  The sound quality of this under $100 amp is really impressive.  Then it got better with the $150 op-amp upgrade.  The value per dollar for entry level hifi is WAY higher than when I entered the sport.  If you know a young person heading off to college.  For $3-400 bucks you can send them off with a compact system that will freakin' ROCK.   Hell, within a few months they have adapted to customer feedback and started making true monoblocks.  The Chinese are crushing entry level hifi.

Having said all that.  Last night I put the M-45 back in service. 
Awww man.  After several months of chifi, it was like meeting up with an old friend.  The difference was not huge, but enough to confirm decisions so far.   Though high value for the dollar, the chifi amp does not handle the bass as well.  The M-45 reproduces the spectrum with more, for lack of a better word, authority.  Compared to the Aiyima, the upper mid's and highs were not as clear.  For now I'm blaming old capacitors for that lack of clarity.  Now I'm really motivated to restore the M to factory specs.  Once serviced it will be good for another 20+ years.  If I'm lucky, maybe the grands will argue over it.

Naww, that's the rabbit hole I'm going down.  I'm gonna service that amp, replace the old electrylytics, and enjoy rather decent A/B amplification.

Sigh... Besides
I have the 72 Kawasaki F7 rabbit hole
and the 68 Honda 90 rabbit hole
and the 73 Honda Z50 rabbit hole
and the 70 Indian Moped rabbit hole
and dang... If I listen hard, I'm pretty sure I hear the fish calling.



Early B.

Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #43 on: 5 Nov 2024, 03:48 pm »
Sigh... Besides
I have the 72 Kawasaki F7 rabbit hole
and the 68 Honda 90 rabbit hole
and the 73 Honda Z50 rabbit hole
and the 70 Indian Moped rabbit hole
and dang... If I listen hard, I'm pretty sure I hear the fish calling.

 :lol: :green: :lol:

Tyson

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #44 on: 5 Nov 2024, 05:13 pm »
To me, the room is most important.  But 2nd most important is the DAC.  Because if the initial signal is not great, then the rest of the system is merely amplifying crud. 

For cheap, Schiit makes very good little DACs.  For a bit more $$, the Musical Paradise is great and way overbuilt.  Super high value for the $$. 

Jon L

Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #45 on: 5 Nov 2024, 05:31 pm »

The ChiFi was inspired by CheapAudioMan

IMO Cheapaudioman used to be OK, but I feel like he is on the take once he achieved a bit of success and manufacturers became willing to send him stuff.  I have unsubscribed him..

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #46 on: 5 Nov 2024, 05:34 pm »
To me, the room is most important.  But 2nd most important is the DAC.  Because if the initial signal is not great, then the rest of the system is merely amplifying crud. 

For cheap, Schiit makes very good little DACs.  For a bit more $$, the Musical Paradise is great and way overbuilt.  Super high value for the $$.

I'm coming at the problem from the other direction.  My first priority was the best speakers I could find on my budget.  Next I'm going for clean clear amplification.  At this point I'm ok with amplified crud because I can also hear the amplified cream.  So yes, I was able to definitely hear the improvement from a DAC. 
Wireless to Wiim was cream that I could hear compared to cruddy BT.

A rising tide lifts all boats...

Early B.

Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #47 on: 5 Nov 2024, 05:56 pm »
I'm coming at the problem from the other direction.  My first priority was the best speakers I could find on my budget.  Next I'm going for clean clear amplification.  At this point I'm ok with amplified crud because I can also hear the amplified cream.  So yes, I was able to definitely hear the improvement from a DAC. 
Wireless to Wiim was cream that I could hear compared to cruddy BT.

A rising tide lifts all boats...

We're trying really hard to encourage you to spend a boatload of money on audio. Resistance is futile...

Glady86

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #48 on: 5 Nov 2024, 05:57 pm »
To me, the room is most important.  But 2nd most important is the DAC.  Because if the initial signal is not great, then the rest of the system is merely amplifying crud. 

For cheap, Schiit makes very good little DACs.  For a bit more $$, the Musical Paradise is great and way overbuilt.  Super high value for the $$.

Do you know if the DAC in my OPPO 105 is comparable to some of these newer recommended models? I think it performs great, but then I haven’t tried anything “better”

Tyson

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #49 on: 5 Nov 2024, 06:39 pm »
Do you know if the DAC in my OPPO 105 is comparable to some of these newer recommended models? I think it performs great, but then I haven’t tried anything “better”

I never heard the OPPO, but based on reputation, I'd guess you would have to get above the $1k price point to better it with an external DAC.

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #50 on: 5 Nov 2024, 07:34 pm »
We're trying really hard to encourage you to spend a boatload of money on audio. Resistance is futile...

I'm not sure I'm ready to take that pill. 
I'd like to think that somewhere between my system and Danny's insane reference rig is a happy place that will be enough.  Not too cold, not too hot, just right.  Focus more on music than equipment.

Then there's those other rabbit holes competing for my wallet.

nlitworld

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #51 on: 5 Nov 2024, 07:56 pm »
We're trying really hard to encourage you to spend a boatload of money on audio. Resistance is futile...



 :lol: love that movie.

So @WannaBeHiFi, you're not wrong to keep the focus on enjoying music and sanity and a little weight to your wallet. I think mostly where you're at currently, everything could and would be an improvement for you. Figure out which way to attack the problems you have, and start slowly chipping away. Room is lower $ but high time and energy to rearrange and figure out quirks. Gear is quick steps but higher $. Pick your poison, but don't lose sleep over any of it.

Early B.

Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #52 on: 5 Nov 2024, 09:23 pm »
I'm not sure I'm ready to take that pill. 

What part of, "resistance is futile" did you not understand? :o

You've already jumped down the rabbit hole and there's no turning back. You upgraded your speakers, so everything else in the chain has to be upgraded. You've also realized that a cheap chifi amp is nearly as good as your beloved Yamaha, so imagine what a decent entry-level amp would sound like for a paltry few hundred more bucks? You're also contemplating mods which is an advanced rabbit hole propulsion tactic. On top of that, you're searching for soundstage!!! That's a never-ending journey.   

You got it bad, dude. Not only have you swallowed the pill, you're on the verge of... (...I don't want to say it out loud).
 

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #53 on: 5 Nov 2024, 09:59 pm »
What part of, "resistance is futile" did you not understand? :o

You've already jumped down the rabbit hole and there's no turning back. You upgraded your speakers, so everything else in the chain has to be upgraded. You've also realized that a cheap chifi amp is nearly as good as your beloved Yamaha, so imagine what a decent entry-level amp would sound like for a paltry few hundred more bucks? You're also contemplating mods which is an advanced rabbit hole propulsion tactic. On top of that, you're searching for soundstage!!! That's a never-ending journey.   

You got it bad, dude. Not only have you swallowed the pill, you're on the verge of... (...I don't want to say it out loud).




Just imagine what can be, unburdened from what has been.

Danny Richie

Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #54 on: 5 Nov 2024, 10:56 pm »
So, given what I have to work with.... What would you recommend for the lower frequencies? 
Please and thank you sir.

I agree with Tyson. You have good speakers. The next step really is the room. That is by far the biggest bang for the buck.

Figure out how good you want it to get. You really have a blank slate that you can do anything with. You can make it work really well with a little effort and minor expense.

Check out the videos that Ron at New Record Day shot about his listening room (the Sound Shed). He shot videos with sound clips all along the way so that you can see and hear the differences made with each step. https://www.youtube.com/@Newrecordday2013/videos

Scroll down to the 9 or 10 month mark to see those videos.

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #55 on: 6 Nov 2024, 12:13 am »
I agree with Tyson. You have good speakers. The next step really is the room. That is by far the biggest bang for the buck.

Figure out how good you want it to get. You really have a blank slate that you can do anything with. You can make it work really well with a little effort and minor expense.

Check out the videos that Ron at New Record Day shot about his listening room (the Sound Shed). He shot videos with sound clips all along the way so that you can see and hear the differences made with each step. https://www.youtube.com/@Newrecordday2013/videos

Scroll down to the 9 or 10 month mark to see those videos.

Hey Danny.  Thanks for chiming in.  Ron did those bout the time I had a bad case of the blues and lost interest for a while.  I will review those.  See what I can come up with.

I'm flying solo.  I'm out in the sticks, don't know anyone who gives a damn about high quality stereophonic reproduction.   Maybe one of these days I'll get on my motorcycle and take the back roads down toward your neck of the woods.  It would be interesting to hear what a SOTA reference system sounds like.  I know you are more into cars, but I'll still show off my '69 BSA.

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #56 on: 6 Nov 2024, 02:44 am »
This is election night, I'm trying to avoid the non-stop political talking heads.  I've got election season burnout.

I just watched all five of Ron's Sound Shed series.  There's an awful lot there to ponder.  Mostly how to translate into practical in my small space.  One takeaway was Ron's advice to check out Acoustics Insider. 
My oh my!  What a rabbit hole this could turn into...

I think I'll open an IPA, chill to Europa Jazz, and ponder sound waves bouncing around the room. 

Danny Richie

Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #57 on: 6 Nov 2024, 08:54 pm »
This video covers how to make some very inexpensive but very effective wall panels.

https://youtu.be/fpiLLqEgX7w?si=FKMEl1HXyV-TEouV

nlitworld

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #58 on: 7 Nov 2024, 04:02 am »
GIK Acoustic Art Panels

Check out their acoustic art panels. A nice happy medium between working panels and acceptable esthetics. Not super cheap, but a pair of those at first reflections would be a great start.

WannaBeHiFi

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Re: Searching for Soundstage
« Reply #59 on: 7 Nov 2024, 01:44 pm »
GIK Acoustic Art Panels

Check out their acoustic art panels. A nice happy medium between working panels and acceptable esthetics. Not super cheap, but a pair of those at first reflections would be a great start.

Thanks for the tip.  Those panels are very nice and, to some degree, align with an idea I've been considering.  Danny talked about making panels from conpressed fiberglass duct board and simply wrapping in fabric.  Well, that sounds like a perfect way to display old concert t-shirts.