[gammi]

Currently on a quest to find an optimal subwoofer setup for my Magnepan LRS+ that I just picked up.
Looking at the Rythmik F12-400 vs the Double Trouble open baffle sub. I realize the open baffle subs are the pinnacle of musicality with the Maggies but I have some concerns.

-I can get two F12-400s for the cost of a single Double Trouble. Separate dual subs have advantages for placement.
-While I realize the musicality of bass strings and woodwinds is better on open baffle subs, my understanding is things like kick drums will have more impact with sealed subs. I would like to feel the kick of the drum hit me.
-They will be going in a fairly large room, about 15x30 and a loft floorplan meaning it opens to the floor below. I suspect a Double Trouble may not be enough for this, perhaps even two of them won't be enough? Whereas the sealed subs should be fine.
-Music is my focus for this, but there is a projector in this room and there will be some home theater use. Probably a 60/40 split.
-Given the LRS+ is only $1000 and the Vidar 2 powering them is only $800, the idea of spending $3300 on dual Double Troubles is unappealing to me. If I can't get by with one Double Trouble, I don't think the open baffle setup is for me. This is supposed to be a value setup for my second home, not an all out cost be damned build.

Because of these reasons I'm thinking it may be better for me to sacrifice some of the musicality the open baffles give me and go with dual sealed instead.
Thoughts? Thanks everyone.

[SteveFord]

Why not two little RELs?

[Early B.]

Yep. Two F12-400's would be a better fit for your room size and budget.

[NIGHTFALL1970]

I have two F12Gs with my 1.7s and they work great. Two are way better than one!

[HAL]

You might talk to Danny about this idea.

With Magnepan LRS+ speakers, you might consider the GR-Research 8in OB servo subs.  You can build a modular version and stack 2-4 per side.  This gives you the same dipole radiation pattern as the LRS+ and bass down to 30Hz.  I know, as I demonstrated them as 4x8in OB servo sub stacks at CAF2023 with my MG10/QR speakers and dspNexus 2x8 DSP processor as DSP crossover and time delay for the main planars to have the wavefront match up to the subs.

I know Rythmik Audio is working on the HX series servo amps to drive them.  Not sure of time frame.  The one amp will drive up to 4 servo subs per side in mono and less cost than the A370PEQ servo amps.  Two servo amps for stereo subs.

Depends on how fast you want them and how low you want to go, as the 2x12 OB subs do go one octave lower. 

Good luck with your decision.

[Zuman]

I'll admit this isn't a real answer to your question, but...
I have a single pre-owned REL S/5 that I have connected wirelessly (via REL's Longbow system) in a corner to the right of and behind my primary listening seat. Not one person who has visited the room has aurally identified the sub's location. It can't be easily seen because of a large chair in front of it, and everyone thinks that my primary speakers are the source of all bass, or that there is a sub hidden behind the speaker grill under my TV, front and center.
My room is 20' x22' with a 9' ceiling.
I do have experience with planars and subs, as long ago I had a pair of the legendary Martin Logan CLS full electrostatics, supplemented by a pair of Kinergetics subwoofers. My single REL far outperforms that setup, effectively disappearing, but extending my main speakers below 20Hz in my present room. The used price for my REL was $1200.
If you can get something like it in your home for a trial, it may be worth the effort.

[gammi]

Why not two little RELs?

I believe servo drive is a fundamental improvement in woofer technology and the RELs don't have that.
No amount of design tricks can fully overcome having an actual servo control feedback loop that can stop the driver on a dime imo.

Yep. Two F12-400's would be a better fit for your room size and budget.

Was leaning this way (as evidenced in the OP), just wanted to check with people who have heard both to make sure I wasn't missing out on too much. So thank you for confirming.

I have two F12Gs with my 1.7s and they work great. Two are way better than one!

Happy to hear this, thanks for the feedback.

With Magnepan LRS+ speakers, you might consider the GR-Research 8in OB servo subs.  You can build a modular version and stack 2-4 per side.  This gives you the same dipole radiation pattern as the LRS+ and bass down to 30Hz.  I know, as I demonstrated them as 4x8in OB servo sub stacks at CAF2023 with my MG10/QR speakers and dspNexus 2x8 DSP processor as DSP crossover and time delay for the main planars to have the wavefront match up to the subs.

I know Rythmik Audio is working on the HX series servo amps to drive them.  Not sure of time frame.  The one amp will drive up to 4 servo subs per side in mono and less cost than the A370PEQ servo amps.  Two servo amps for stereo subs.

Depends on how fast you want them and how low you want to go, as the 2x12 OB subs do go one octave lower. 

Interesting suggestion and if this was just for music, I might consider it. I do want that extra octave lower for home theater though so it seems 2x12 is where I'm at.

I have a single pre-owned REL S/5 that I have connected wirelessly (via REL's Longbow system) in a corner to the right of and behind my primary listening seat. Not one person who has visited the room has aurally identified the sub's location. It can't be easily seen because of a large chair in front of it, and everyone thinks that my primary speakers are the source of all bass, or that there is a sub hidden behind the speaker grill under my TV, front and center.
My room is 20' x22' with a 9' ceiling.
I do have experience with planars and subs, as long ago I had a pair of the legendary Martin Logan CLS full electrostatics, supplemented by a pair of Kinergetics subwoofers. My single REL far outperforms that setup, effectively disappearing, but extending my main speakers below 20Hz in my present room. The used price for my REL was $1200.

My other listening system has a pair of Buchardt S400 MKIIs and some old Pioneer subwoofer in it and amazingly I've gotten that to disappear, at least from a positional sense if not a musical sense. It sounds like the bass is emanating from the center of my TV, even though the sub is next to the couch.
The Buchardts have amazing imaging too, at times I've had to check that the center channel is off when playing stereo because the vocals sound so much like they're coming from dead center.

Anyway, I'm sure those REL subs are great and everyone who has one seems to love it. It is twice the cost however, and doesn't have the servo drive technology which I am pretty firmly sold on as having a large benefit for subwoofer decay (can stop on a dime)

[Tyson]

If you're doing a combo of HT and music, I'd get the OB servo subs for music and a separate sealed sub for HT.

[Saturn94]

Yep. Two F12-400's would be a better fit for your room size and budget.

+1

Yep, two F12-400’s would be a solid choice. 👍

[Rocket_Ronny]

Since you are looking at dual Rhythmic subs don't overlook the FM8s. Dual 8" paper drivers that play up to 200 hz. Will output almost the same volume as the 12s but are faster. Gives a lot of options to crossover high.

If I had the LRS I would make stands to have them above the FM8s to gain stage height and cross them over as high as works. You would have to work out something to high pass the Maggies but to me that is what I would do if I entered back to Maggie land and would not care about the rest of the line.

Make sure to get the gloss black FM8s, beautiful.

I have a pair of FM8s with GR Super Minis. Here are a couple videos for proof of concept. Subs have 4 hours, Minis about 30. Crossover is 200 hz. Still a lot of work to get things right, but a start. Room in new house is challenging, but a miracle to even have the system there, ha. Acoustic foam has yet to be put on the front baffle.

I have since raised the subs 10" off the ground with the funny things on the sides. They are Specially Tuned Harmonic Resonators that create an out of phase signal to cancel out box resonances. They also just happen to be fantastic grab handles to move the speakers to they listening positions.

Rickie Lee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTRByZtq7K0
Chinese  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGLOLSkE6po

Rocket Ronny

[gammi]

If you're doing a combo of HT and music, I'd get the OB servo subs for music and a separate sealed sub for HT.

Even though my room is fairly large and I want some impact on things like kick drums?
I have my reservations that a single Double Trouble is going to be enough for my room.

Seems to me that with a single Double Trouble and a single F12, I'm missing out in both cases.
Not enough for the room with a single Double Trouble for music and a single F12 is less pressurization than dual F12s for home theater, not to mention more room effects with a single sub vs dual.
Also this setup costs more than either single Double Trouble or dual F12-400.

Since you are looking at dual Rhythmic subs don't overlook the FM8s. Dual 8" paper drivers that play up to 200 hz. Will output almost the same volume as the 12s but are faster. Gives a lot of options to crossover high.

If I had the LRS I would make stands to have them above the FM8s to gain stage height and cross them over as high as works. You would have to work out something to high pass the Maggies but to me that is what I would do if I entered back to Maggie land and would not care about the rest of the line.

Make sure to get the gloss black FM8s, beautiful.

I have a pair of FM8s with GR Super Minis. Here are a couple videos for proof of concept. Subs have 4 hours, Minis about 30. Crossover is 200 hz. Still a lot of work to get things right, but a start. Room in new house is challenging, but a miracle to even have the system there, ha. Acoustic foam has yet to be put on the front baffle.

I have since raised the subs 10" off the ground with the funny things on the sides. They are Specially Tuned Harmonic Resonators that create an out of phase signal to cancel out box resonances. They also just happen to be fantastic grab handles to move the speakers to they listening positions.

The FM8s are impressive for sure. I just don't think I have any interest in crossing over that high though. I'll probably be crossing over at 60Hz.

[Rocket_Ronny]

The FM8s are impressive for sure. I just don't think I have any interest in crossing over that high though. I'll probably be crossing over at 60Hz.

At this point you are thinking this, but down the road you may and will be limited by the 12s. Plus, having the FM8 allows for using them in speaker builds where a higher crossover point is needed. For myself, I saw nothing to gain by using the 12s and everything to gain with the FM8s.

Rocket Ronny

[gammi]

Just wanted to update that I bought the Rythmik F12-400. I started with just one to see before I bought two and I'm glad I did, I'm actually really happy with the single one. Maybe my room isn't as hard to drive as I thought, also helps I don't play at crazy SPL.

I haven't gotten crazy deep into going around my room with a microphone connected to REW and taking measurements but just tuning the crossover and gain by ear so far I'm getting a most excellent result.
To my ear the 24dB slope on the crossover sounded better and basically I just kept lowering the crossover point until I didn't hear any more bloat. Wound up being like 40 on the dial (which I believe doesn't actually mean 40)

Drum kicks have that chest impact I was looking for and also mid bass has zero bloat. The sub truly does disappear, it just gives more body to all the bass instruments and impact to the drums but it doesn't feel like it's coming anywhere other than dead center in the image even though I have the sub placed far right. Those drum kicks felt like they were just coming out of thin air in front of the projector screen, in-between the maggies.

I had my dad over to listen and he did a jaw drop and head turn, looked over to me and just kinda nodded like yeah, this is good. He had a pretty kickass Paradigm setup back in the 90s and was amazed speaker, amp, sub all together was only $2700.
I highly doubt I could build anything better for this price.

Anyway, I obviously can't comment on how the Rythmik compares with OB subs but I'm very happy with the Rythmik having heard just that.

[Saturn94]

Just wanted to update that I bought the Rythmik F12-400. I started with just one to see before I bought two and I'm glad I did, I'm actually really happy with the single one. Maybe my room isn't as hard to drive as I thought, also helps I don't play at crazy SPL.

I haven't gotten crazy deep into going around my room with a microphone connected to REW and taking measurements but just tuning the crossover and gain by ear so far I'm getting a most excellent result.
To my ear the 24dB slope on the crossover sounded better and basically I just kept lowering the crossover point until I didn't hear any more bloat. Wound up being like 40 on the dial (which I believe doesn't actually mean 40)

Drum kicks have that chest impact I was looking for and also mid bass has zero bloat. The sub truly does disappear, it just gives more body to all the bass instruments and impact to the drums but it doesn't feel like it's coming anywhere other than dead center in the image even though I have the sub placed far right. Those drum kicks felt like they were just coming out of thin air in front of the projector screen, in-between the maggies.

I had my dad over to listen and he did a jaw drop and head turn, looked over to me and just kinda nodded like yeah, this is good. He had a pretty kickass Paradigm setup back in the 90s and was amazed speaker, amp, sub all together was only $2700.
I highly doubt I could build anything better for this price.

Anyway, I obviously can't comment on how the Rythmik compares with OB subs but I'm very happy with the Rythmik having heard just that.

Nice!  Enjoy! 

[Early B.]

Just wanted to update that I bought the Rythmik F12-400. I started with just one to see before I bought two and I'm glad I did, I'm actually really happy with the single one. Maybe my room isn't as hard to drive as I thought, also helps I don't play at crazy SPL. ...

Awesome outcome!! A second F12 will take your listening experience up a notch, for sure.
 

[rollo]

Using two Rythmik subs myself with stand mount speakers. No going back.

charles