Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)

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Runningcap

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Hi,

New to this hobby, first post, and need a little help. I'm building a listening room/home theater and ideally I'd like to place my turntable/phone on the opposite wall of my other equipment. Because of this I will need to run a low capacitance RCA from the phono to integrated amp which will be roughly a 40ft run. The room is 14x18 and I'd like to run the cables in the walls while I have them open. Can anyone recommend a quality, semi modestly priced, cable for this length? I do anticipate changing/upgrading/acquiring more gear as I continue with this journey, but for now this is my set up.

TT - Fluence RT 85

Phono - Schitt Mani 2

Integrated Amp - Emotiva TA2

Speakers - GR Research NX Studio & Kef R3 (just got a crazy open box deal from BestBuy, $310 for the pair!)

Subs - 2x REL HT/1003 MKII

Thanks and appreciate any help!

Bob2

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #1 on: 17 Jul 2023, 06:36 pm »
Welcome to Audio circle!
Blue Jeans cables would be a great starting point. https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm
They can make a cable of any type and length you need. I have some 35 foot interconnects from them and they work great.
Prices are good and they have short turnaround time so you will receive your order quickly.

All the Best,
Bob2

rollo

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #2 on: 17 Jul 2023, 06:43 pm »
 For starters a balanced cable at that length. Audio Envy, Triode wire Labs or Benchmark.

charles

Bob2

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #3 on: 17 Jul 2023, 06:49 pm »
For starters a balanced cable at that length. Audio Envy, Triode wire Labs or Benchmark.

charles
Good advice! 
Bluejeans also makes XLR cables. That is if your components have XLR in/out as an option.

toocool4

Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #4 on: 17 Jul 2023, 06:57 pm »
rollo the Schitt Mani 2 and the Emotiva TA2 don’t have balanced connections.

Runningcap, welcome to AudioCircle. Personally I would not run anything that long. Any particular reason why you want your TT on the other side of the room?

mlundy57

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #5 on: 17 Jul 2023, 07:49 pm »
Also, make sure whatever cable you use is rated for in-wall use.

Another option to consider is to use RCA to Ethernet adapters, also called Baluns. You's run Ethernet cable in the wall with the adapters at each end. Here's a link to one such device, https://www.amazon.com/Sewell-single-bi-directional-inputs-outputs/dp/B01LR420NM/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=ethernet+to+rca+adapter&qid=1689623141&sr=8-5 . This is not an endorsement, just for information. There are other such devices out there

DaveC113

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #6 on: 17 Jul 2023, 08:46 pm »
I'd go with a std balanced cable, you can use it single ended and only connect the shield at one end, or use it balanced with the shield on pin 1. XLR is a better format for long runs, it's possible you'll get a phono pre and integrated or pre with XLR ins/outs in the future, if you do you can just install XLR plugs and use the same cable.

They come in twisted pair or star-quad, star quad has better noise rejection but more capacitance.

https://www.parts-express.com/Mogami-W2549-1-ft.-Neglex-Long-Run-Microphone-Signal-Cable-1-103-1012?quantity=1

Don't run it near AC power, if it has to cross AC power lines do it at a right angle, definitely don't bundle ICs with other cables.

Personally, I'd find a solution that doesn't involve a 40' run, but as long as it doesn't pick up noise it'll work just fine. In live/studio applications cables are often pretty long.


wgraft5

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #7 on: 17 Jul 2023, 08:47 pm »
If you wanted to go XLR for the long distance, you could ues a converter box(s) like this ART CleanBox Pro https://www.parts-express.com/ART-CLEANBoxPro-Stereo-Balanced-Unbalanced-Converter-245-868?quantity=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=18473122202&utm_content=147095683412&gadid=625132969828&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzdOlBhCNARIsAPMwjbxO-RaOTAkOVwTqUPSMyzSuJLtUSIFHUWY0S1AGMdm7ykJ30uQCWmMaAtdcEALw_wcB.

You would need two, one on each end.

$89 each plus a pair of XLR cables.

This is just the first responce for a google search for converters. There was a lot of devices like this at varisous price points.

Good Luck,

Wayne in Oregon

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #8 on: 17 Jul 2023, 08:58 pm »
Considering your currenty gear is RCA only:

I would look for a solution that gets you a shorter than 40' run. 15-20' would likely be a more reasonable option.
If you're worried about vibrations transferring from the floor to your turntable I would find ways to decouple your Turntable's stand from the floor.

S Clark

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #9 on: 17 Jul 2023, 09:12 pm »
Phono+ RCA+ 40 ft= hum. 
Rollo is right.
If you can't do balanced cables, then don't do it. Locate the TT closer to the amp. 
And if you can run balanced cables, still think about keeping it closer to the amp. 

FullRangeMan

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #10 on: 17 Jul 2023, 10:57 pm »
No phono stage have power to drive this long cable, the SQ will no be great IMO.
If there is one I will be surprised.

NoahH

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #11 on: 18 Jul 2023, 03:44 pm »
A simplification that is useful is that you get signal loss and noise on cables that is proportionate to the length of the cable. But the strength of the signal on the cable varies depending on the type. From strongest to weakest is power cable, speaker cable, post-pre-amp interconnect, pre-pre-amp interconnect, pre-phono-stage cables. Balanced signals in theory don't get as much noise as single-handed because the noise cancels out on the legs.

This you basically want to have your longer cables as early in that list as you can, with exceptions sometimes being made if the alternative is a balanced signal slightly later. But I want to call out that I am saying balanced *signal*. If you just run a single-handed signal over XLR cables, that does not make it balanced - you need an active device at the origin to make it balanced. Also note that signal loss is not reduced with XLR. That loss is not an issue for strong output signals usually, but phono outputs are pretty low. What that means is you will lose detail. A loud primary sounds get a touch softer, but the quiet subtle sounds just go away or get lost in background noise.

So given the gear you are talking about, you would likely be better off with your integrated in the same location as your turntable and then having a long run of speaker cables to the speakers.

One other small reminder in planning is that turntables are often placed in a location where the sound from the speakers is weakest. That is because the whole thing can end up being microphonic. So if you are putting your turntable next to your seating for convenience, that may become a problem. The severity is up for discussion and highly equipment dependent, but relevant.

DaveC113

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #12 on: 18 Jul 2023, 04:50 pm »
A simplification that is useful is that you get signal loss and noise on cables that is proportionate to the length of the cable. But the strength of the signal on the cable varies depending on the type. From strongest to weakest is power cable, speaker cable, post-pre-amp interconnect, pre-pre-amp interconnect, pre-phono-stage cables. Balanced signals in theory don't get as much noise as single-handed because the noise cancels out on the legs.

This you basically want to have your longer cables as early in that list as you can, with exceptions sometimes being made if the alternative is a balanced signal slightly later. But I want to call out that I am saying balanced *signal*. If you just run a single-handed signal over XLR cables, that does not make it balanced - you need an active device at the origin to make it balanced. Also note that signal loss is not reduced with XLR. That loss is not an issue for strong output signals usually, but phono outputs are pretty low. What that means is you will lose detail. A loud primary sounds get a touch softer, but the quiet subtle sounds just go away or get lost in background noise.

So given the gear you are talking about, you would likely be better off with your integrated in the same location as your turntable and then having a long run of speaker cables to the speakers.

One other small reminder in planning is that turntables are often placed in a location where the sound from the speakers is weakest. That is because the whole thing can end up being microphonic. So if you are putting your turntable next to your seating for convenience, that may become a problem. The severity is up for discussion and highly equipment dependent, but relevant.

The phono pre will be outputting a 2V signal to the integrated, this isn't a phono cable run, it's line-level.

Longer speaker cables ARE NOT the solution here, speakers are low impedance and the additional LCR from long SCs is a much larger issue than with IC cables, which are used in a high impedance situation.



Also, in reply to others, there's is nothing saying a 40' single ended run will end up with hum, where do you get that? There needs to be interference from an EMF field to cause hum, and this can be avoided if the run is routed properly, I went over this in my previous post. There will also be some noise rejection on a SE twisted pair, which is also shielded.

Using XLR converters to solve a non-existent issue isn't a good idea either. You add more cables, components and/or trafos to the system to do what? Keep theoretical noise away that likely isn't even present in a typical home environment. Balanced audio for home use is solving a problem that usually doesn't exist in a home environment. I agree XLR is more ideal but not if you have to add a bunch of stuff to do it. If the phono pre was natively balanced and the amp actually has a balanced receiver (instead of just not using pin2 for anything and leaving it unterminated, as most SE amps with XLR ins do), then use XLR. This is why I recommended installing a balanced cable rather than a coax cable for this application, in the future XLR could be used if the gear supports it.


Sorry, but there's just a ton of noise in this thread, not in the proposed long cable run, lol. The long cable run isn't what I'd do personally, but there's no reason it can't work and if routed properly, it won't be noisy or pick up hum either.




Bob2

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #13 on: 18 Jul 2023, 05:59 pm »
"if routed properly, it won't be noisy or pick up hum either."

This is true in my situation. I was running long speaker cables, 35'. I did have some hum from the speakers. As an experiment I moved my amp to the other end of my room near my speakers and used long S.E. interconnects and this made a huge difference in SQ and no hum.
 
After purchasing a preamp with XLR connections I swapped out the S.E. interconnects for balanced cables. This change didn't improve or degrade the SQ. There was no hum using either type of connections. All cables should be as short as possible but in some situations that isn't possible.

S Clark

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #14 on: 18 Jul 2023, 06:44 pm »


Also, in reply to others, there's is nothing saying a 40' single ended run will end up with hum, where do you get that? There needs to be interference from an EMF field to cause hum, and this can be avoided if the run is routed properly...
You might be right, but that's a big if...
I go back to my main point, don't do it you can avoid it. 

marvda1

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #15 on: 18 Jul 2023, 07:43 pm »
if you buy 40Ft. se interconnects and they don't work out you will have a tough time selling them unless you break them down to much shorter lengths.

mlundy57

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #16 on: 18 Jul 2023, 10:11 pm »
The phono pre will be outputting a 2V signal to the integrated, this isn't a phono cable run, it's line-level.

Longer speaker cables ARE NOT the solution here, speakers are low impedance and the additional LCR from long SCs is a much larger issue than with IC cables, which are used in a high impedance situation.



Also, in reply to others, there's is nothing saying a 40' single ended run will end up with hum, where do you get that? There needs to be interference from an EMF field to cause hum, and this can be avoided if the run is routed properly, I went over this in my previous post. There will also be some noise rejection on a SE twisted pair, which is also shielded.

Using XLR converters to solve a non-existent issue isn't a good idea either. You add more cables, components and/or trafos to the system to do what? Keep theoretical noise away that likely isn't even present in a typical home environment. Balanced audio for home use is solving a problem that usually doesn't exist in a home environment. I agree XLR is more ideal but not if you have to add a bunch of stuff to do it. If the phono pre was natively balanced and the amp actually has a balanced receiver (instead of just not using pin2 for anything and leaving it unterminated, as most SE amps with XLR ins do), then use XLR. This is why I recommended installing a balanced cable rather than a coax cable for this application, in the future XLR could be used if the gear supports it.


Sorry, but there's just a ton of noise in this thread, not in the proposed long cable run, lol. The long cable run isn't what I'd do personally, but there's no reason it can't work and if routed properly, it won't be noisy or pick up hum either.

When I moved the front end components from between the speakers to a position in the rear along a side wall I had a 25ft run with single ended cables. I not only had hum, I would pick up radio stations (one on the right channel and a different one on the left channel). Switching to balanced cables and using the balanced connections on the gear eliminated both the hum and the radio stations. My gear is different than the OP's in that I have separates so the 25ft interconnect run was from the preamp on the side wall to the power amps between the speakers and the preamp and power amps have both single ended and balanced connections.

Switching the Emotiva integrated to separates with balanced connections will allow for both pushing a larger signal through the interconnects and taking advantage of common mode rejection. This would be the best performing approach bit it's also the most expensive.




DaveC113

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #17 on: 18 Jul 2023, 11:10 pm »
When I moved the front end components from between the speakers to a position in the rear along a side wall I had a 25ft run with single ended cables. I not only had hum, I would pick up radio stations (one on the right channel and a different one on the left channel). Switching to balanced cables and using the balanced connections on the gear eliminated both the hum and the radio stations. My gear is different than the OP's in that I have separates so the 25ft interconnect run was from the preamp on the side wall to the power amps between the speakers and the preamp and power amps have both single ended and balanced connections.

Switching the Emotiva integrated to separates with balanced connections will allow for both pushing a larger signal through the interconnects and taking advantage of common mode rejection. This would be the best performing approach bit it's also the most expensive.

Not necessarily... If you have a high gain amp and efficient speakers the IC between pre and amp can have voltage levels as low as a turntable cart at low listening levels. The voltage the phono pre sends out to his integrated is 2V. If your preamp is attenuating the signal to the amp 24 dB for example, the voltage carried by the IC is 0.126V. At 48 dB down it's 0.008V... You're way better off with the long run being 2V rather than a small fraction of that.

I definitely question the cables and shielding you used if you're picking up radio stations. I can tell you from sending people demo cables for over a decade now, noise issues associated with single ended components and cable that can be solved with balanced are exceedingly rare in a home environment and can mostly be solved by minor re-routing of an IC cable.

mix4fix

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #18 on: 18 Jul 2023, 11:33 pm »
My old Pioneer turntable is positioned on a little table, while the ADL phono/pre-amp is on the desk. I had to jerry-rig to extend the rca's and ground. It's only a six foot cable with some scrap wire. How long is considered too long to do this?

FullRangeMan

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Re: Cable recommendation from Phono to Integrated amp (~40ft)
« Reply #19 on: 19 Jul 2023, 11:59 am »
How long is considered too long to do this?
Most of hi priced audiophile IC are around 1 metre long.
The famous 12AX7 tube cant not drive this same 1 metre IC.