[zybar]

Eric,

That is the best looking "flawed" system I have ever seen!!  

But seriously, can't wait to hear what you think of the speakers when they are setup.

George

[Brian Cheney]

As far as Rick Craig's comments are concerned there are many "correctly" designed systems that sound mediocre or even poor.  There are also plenty of "flawed" speakers with a loyal following and very good sound quality.  

Personally I detest the sound of metal cone drivers and would never use one.  Cone dynamic mids and midbass in a system that expensive is ludicrous IMHO.  Drivers are all garden variety.  The price is merely a hook for those with fat wallets.  The system may sound very good, as there are plenty of drivers to make for low distortion relative to sound pressure levels.  I await Eric's report.

[Bingenito]

You know what they say about opinions

In this case they are a good thing. Otherwise we would have 1 brand of speakers to choose from.

Enjoy the new speakers Eric. Crank up those subs with some 10hz warble tones until your neighbors puke

Why would you do such a thing? Because you can

[ctviggen]

I've always found metal drivers to be fatiguing after a while.  However, I don't know whether that's implementation dependent -- perhaps one could design a system with metal drivers and have them not be fatiguing.  I also think Eric's speakers look great and will be interested to hear a report.  I've heard some megabuck speakers that sounded great (Dynaudio comes to mind) and some that sounded horrible (the 100k Wilsons, which were supposedly not set up correctly).  The flagship speaker system at a place I used to go to sounded, to me, terrible.  I can't remember the name of the speakers right now, but even with 100k of electronics driving them, I didn't like them.

[ekovalsky]

Furniture maker is on his way over to get started with the refinishing.  Hopefully I'll have them in the listening room by next weekend and can post some listening impressions.

After looking the speakers over closely, it is obviously that they are silly overpriced at MSRP.  Brian's  Money and the High End article definitely applies.  However at the used price, I am very satisfied with the value.  Quality is just superb -- all drivers are secured with black hex machine screws and fit perfectly with no gaps.  Wire routing and soldering is first rate.  

About the driver complenent:

1.  The Raven ribbon tweeters are fantastic (even though it is a French company!).  As to why Carl choose the R-1 instead of fewer R-2 to achieve the same array height I don't know, unless he needed nine to achieve the impedance he wanted.  

2.  Each Alnico cone midrange costs over an order of magnitude more than a single VMPS neo panel (when purchased in bulk).  They are custom made and matched in Denmark and are not Vifa, Silver Flute, etc drivers purchased off the shelf from Madisound.  Compared to any planar magentic, the frequency response is a hell of a lot flatter.  Also unlike any current planar, it has perfectly pistonic motion across its entire operating range and it is capable of moving some serious air in the upper bass and lower midrange.  Maybe the new B&G planar can do this too, if so it should be killer.

3.  Seas Excel woofers (and mids) are superb.  If you have not liked them, you should hear a system with them properly implemented like Salk, Joseph Audio, Tyler, Alon/Nola.  In this Alon system, the woofers operate below 400hz.  The first major resonance is well out of the passband at 5khz.

4.  As for the 600 lbs of woofer towers, their output is limited to the range below the bass cut off for the vast majority of "full range" systems.  Yes, bring on the warble tones  

[James Romeyn]

...3. Seas Excel woofers (and mids) are superb. If you have not liked them, you should hear a system with them properly implemented like Salk, Joseph Audio, Tyler, Alon/Nola. ...

I'm lucky enough to have the chance to hear Jim Salk's Veracity QW (quarter wavelength small floorstanding version of the HT1 standmount) Saturday 5/14/05.  I'm really looking forward to it, based on internet reports.

As far as I know, Eric's favorite speaker of those he owned, is still the huge Apogee ribbons.  Last I read, he was still regretting ever selling them.  Sorry if I missed any updates to that information.

It will interesting to see how he likes the Nola metal cone technology compared to his Apogee ribbons.  You'd think $126k, even in 2005 dollars, could, should & would produce way higher performance than about $15k in mid-1980 dollars.

[Tweaker]

You'd think $126k, even in 2005 dollars, could, should & would produce way higher performance than about $15k in mid-1980 dollars.

  I would like to see what a $126k speaker sounds (and looks) like that is actually worth $126k based on actual parts cost, labor,etc., and a normal reasonable profit margin.
  I am guessing ekovalsky's speakers are jaw dropping to listen to but even he admits that they are "silly overpriced at MSRP".

[ScottMayo]

[quote="Tweaker  I would like to see what a $126k speaker sounds (and looks) like that is actually worth $126k based on actual parts cost, labor, and a normal reasonable profit margin.
[/quote]

I can picture it. (I can picture anything). It would be a room, not a speaker. The room would have drivers built into the structure, probably in all six directions. It would take a whopping lot of drivers, each capable of reproducing a particular, narrow range of frequencies but doing it really, really, really well. Of course it would take a fairly special, 600 or so channel amp to drive it, and the little question of where you'd get properly recorded material for it is a puzzler. And I'm not sure it wouldn't kill you from a combination of aural orgasmic bliss and magnetic fields.

But then, it's only right that audiophiles suffer for their art, right?

Whip me, beat me, make me listen to razor flat, time corrected, ideally rendered Norah Jones in a 600 channel audio room with full acoustical treatment. Please? *noddle*

[ekovalsky]

I'm lucky enough to have the chance to hear Jim Salk's Veracity QW (quarter wavelength small floorstanding version of the HT1 standmount) Saturday 5/14/05.  I'm really looking forward to it, based on internet reports.

As far as I know, Eric's favorite speaker of those he owned, is still the huge Apogee ribbons.  Last I read, he was still regretting ever selling them.  Sorry if I missed any updates to that information.

It will interesting to see how he likes the Nola metal cone technology compared to h ...

Yes the big Apogee ribbons are tough to beat, though they require separate subwoofers and can be tough to drive.  Also with sensitivities in the low 80's there can be some dynamic limitations.  I had the Divas which was the top of the line "real world" speaker.  The earlier Scintilla and Full Range models are potentially even better but nearly impossible to drive and overall more finicky.  The Grand was the best but very few were made and they were extremely costly, about $85k MSRP I believe.

If I actually had or wanted to spend $126k on speakers I'd probably buy either the Perigee 'Definitive' which is a modernized Apogee Full Range (retail $108k USD, plus shipping from Down Under), or the Martin Logan E2x.   Both offer more 'value' than the Alons.  Same with the Wilson X-2 Alexandria.

If I were Carl Marchisotto I would price the Grand Reference II at about $63k MSRP.  At current retail, which is double that, I'll be the first to say they are not at all a good value.  Same with the smaller Pegasus which has MSRP of $45k.

[warnerwh]

Well those are certainly very impressive looking speakers.  I'm very curious of your impressions compared to the other speakers you've had.  Especially how the multiple dynamic drivers sound compared to the Apogee and VMPS speaker in the midrange.  No doubt that array of Raven's should sound very good. As a side benefit once you're done finding the best position for them in your room you're going to be nearly as strong as JC:lol:

[ekovalsky]

As a side benefit once you're done finding the best position for them in your room you're going to be nearly as strong as JC:lol:

I work out with weights 5-6 days per week and rarely get much soreness afterwards.  Didn't go yesterday or today and I'm sore as hell all over!

Speaker uncrating is great whole body exercise  

[shokunin]

Yes the big Apogee ribbons are tough to beat, though they require separate subwoofers and can be tough to drive.  Also with sensitivities in the low 80's there can be some dynamic limitations.  I had the Divas which was the top of the line "real world" speaker.  The earlier Scintilla and Full Range models are potentially even better but nearly impossible to drive and overall more finicky.  The Grand was the best but very few were made and they were extremely costly, about $85k MSRP I believe.

If I actual ...

I visited a local audiophile here in Socal who had Apogee Full Ranges (I think he just sold them on agon) powered by some large Musical Fidelity 1KW amps plus 2 pairs of Tube Research GT400's... talk about needing some amplification to drive...  I guess he gave up trying to get it all working as he had Lamm ML1.2's and Quads that he seemed happier with.

[CornellAlum]

As a side benefit once you're done finding the best position for them in your room you're going to be nearly as strong as JC:lol:

I work out with weights 5-6 days per week and rarely get much soreness afterwards.  Didn't go yesterday or today and I'm sore as hell all over!

Speaker uncrating is great whole body exercise  

I work out with weights about 5 days a week, and I am sore as hell every time

[warnerwh]

"I work out with weights about 5 days a week, and I am sore as hell every time "

If you've been lifting any period of time you shouldn't be getting very sore.  Depending on your age you probably shouldn't work the same muscle or muscle groups more than once a week. This is for people over about 35.  If you do you can end up with little to no gains and can actually lose strength and mass as your body is trying to recuperate but never gets the chance before you do more damage.  As I got older, and I'm sure JC will agree, I noticed that my training could not be as intense for as long of periods because my body wasn't recuperating as fast as years ago.  Even though I haven't lifted in about 3 years I find I'm still making gains, but mostly around my abdomen!

[rosconey]

i work for a living -no way in hell i would go to the gym or lift for fun -tile work is one of the most demanding jobs there is on your body-try working on your hands and knee's for 8-12 hours,elevators never work so you carry 50-75lb boxes and bags up stairs,swing a 3lb driving hammer  for demo work--baby's learn to walk,tile maggotts learn to crawl

i gained alot of weight over the winter because work was slow-over 25lbs,in  2 weeks im back down to 185 and fit back into a 34 waist from a 36-

[Bingenito]

Hey Eric I checked out your gallery. I like the picture from the driveway of the subwoofer arrays. It looks like you are ready to have a block party.

Your neighbors must think you are insane. Mine sure did when the freight company dropped off the Incredarrays. People were like so whats in the crates. When you tell them speakers they have this look on their face like yeah right so what is really in the boxes.

[James Romeyn]

Yes the big Apogee ribbons are tough to beat, though they require separate subwoofers and can be tough to drive.  Also with sensitivities in the low 80's there can be some dynamic limitations.  I had the Divas which was the top of the line "real world" speaker.  The earlier Scintilla and Full Range models are potentially even better but nearly impossible to drive and overall more finicky.  The Grand was the best but very few were made and they were extremely costly, about $85k MSRP I believe...

A guy I knew back in the day owned a pair of the Apogee Full Range Ribbons.  To power them he bought two Mark Levinson No. 23 amps shortly after the amps became available.  He strapped the amps as monoblocs.  In stereo the amps were 200WRMS/ch @ 8 Ohms, & continued to double with each halving of impedance down to 1 Ohm.  I think Stereophile said they'd power a dead short.  Those amps were big for their day.  

I seem to remember him saying those amps were the best available at that time for driving his speakers.  I still think those amps could sing.

[ekovalsky]

A guy I knew back in the day owned a pair of the Apogee Full Range Ribbons.  To power them he bought two Mark Levinson No. 23 amps shortly after the amps became available.  He strapped the amps as monoblocs.  In stereo the amps were 200WRMS/ch @ 8 Ohms, & continued to double with each halving of impedance down to 1 Ohm.  I think Stereophile said they'd power a dead short.  Those amps were big for their day.  

I seem to remember him saying those amps were the best available at that time for driving his speakers.  I still think those amps could sing.

Those amps (like a lot of the early Levinson gear) are classics and will easily compete with today's best solid state.  There is a reason they are hard to find.

The newer Levinson stuff is Harmon-ized and not particularly outstanding other than the Reference series.

[Florian]

Well so far the old Krell with its brutal force is the best bet in my book for my Scintilla's. We measured a load of 0.95ohms at the input terminals    We hooked up Allens tube amplifiers which can run 1ohm but we got not more than a whisper from them before they distort, was fun tough.

-Flo

[WerTicus]

you guys need to check out nuforce amps , they love difficult loads and your going to be surprised by what they can do.