[lupodwdm]

I have read in a few places that using rigid fiberglass insulation cut in a round shape to fit large diameter pipe can work quite well as a tube trap. Unfortunatly, I'm having a tough time finding stuff like this available online.  Anyone have any ideas?

[Rob Babcock]

I think that HVAC suppliers are the place to get it.  You might wanna try your Yellow Pages.  Typically your big box hardware stores (Lowes, Home Depot etc) don't carry the stuff.

Be advised that there's a lot of debate on whether the stuff is any good for tube traps.  John Risch claims they're too dense & reflective while others claim they work great.  If  you get a good price I'd be interested to see if it works for you.

BTW, let me bid you a (belated  ) welcome to AC!

[warnerwh]

Call an insulation company in your area. I had no problem finding some. Stuff isn't cheap though but I'm sure it works great. Thanks for reminding me.

[lupodwdm]

What would you suggest would be the best DIY way to treat a room?  My room is a little bright and has a little boomyness.

[warnerwh]

Some bass traps will help your bass and treating at least all first reflection points will tame the brightness.  Panel traps that can be bought or diy are what you need.  Do a google on the subject. Ethan Winer's site: realtraps.com has good prices and good diy projects. For the money you'll be surprised how much treating your room helps the sound quality.

[rosconey]

its spelled-knauf
might be easier to find with prooper spelin

[Florian]

spelin

spelling  

[Red Dragon Audio]

Hey Guys,

I have looked into Knauf 1000˚ Pipe Insulation and it will work but greater thicknesses are needed since it's less dense than Owens Corning 705.  The simple flat panels like OC 705 might be more cost effective but I haven't done a cost comparison just yet.  I might later on when I get around to it.

Concerning Jon Risch's design
Jon Risch doesn't even state on his website how dense his "bass tube traps" are so he has no reference to say that Fiberglass Pipe Insultion is too dense†.  Jon Risch if you are reading this, do not be offended, but stop telling people that Fiberglass Pipe Insulation won't work when in reality it's actually effective.  Not to mention when using prefabbed Fiberglass Pipe Insulation, the bass traps looks cleaner-prettier when finished. Also your traps are much more time consuming to build. Time is money so why waste it cutting wire, wrapping pink stuff, cutting more wire, wrapping batting, glueing, cutting twice as many wood rounds etc etc.

anyway, sorry bout going off on Jon's idea there...at least he recognizes the need to do it...just had to speak up and stop the madness from being perpetuated...  I'm not against Jon sharing information and ideas so long as it's sound advice.  If it ain't sound, I'm not going to sit by quietly just because he's "Jon Risch" and he has all these ideas about cables, acoustics and stuff.  I have ideas too, but I don't   intend folks to take what I say as Gospel or Canon Law for the Acoustically Challenged either.  Take what I say with a grain of salt.  sorry again...I will stop blabbing...that's my biggest problem...I talk way too much.

I have been in contact with Robert (bob) Gardner at Knauf Fiberglass for a while now and he's got me all the information I need about the Fiberglass Pipe Insulation (I did the same with the OC rep in my area to see if their Pipe Insulation was more or less dense).

†Bob Gardner has stated that their Knauf Pipe Insulation, in the sizes that would be effective as bass traps, are only 4.00PCF.  So the trick would be to get thicker walled tubes- OC 705 is 6.00 PCF for reference.


A nice size would be to get the 10"-12" diameter tube that is 6" thick (that's inner diameter to fit a 10"-12" pipe; overall diamter will have to account for the wall thickness...so you're looking at an 18"-20" tube).  Bigger tubes will work better as they'll provide more coverage and mass to absorb unwanted bass "ringing".

I've also thought, if you want the round look, just get really large Pipe Insulation of say 20" diameter, 6" thick, and then cut it into quarters.  Because the pipe is 6" thick that changes the outer diamter to 32" overall.  If you cut that into quarters, you'll have 16"quarter round pieces. Which would give you about the same overall coverage as a 24" wide panel (though the tubes only come in 36" lengths so their vertical coverage will be slightly less but you can just stack them in the corners to get the desired height).  You can use the quarter rounds in the corners of your room and along wall-ceiling seams.  You could just use the smaller Half Rounds in the middle of walls too.

These Pipe Insulators come cut in half from the factory.  So all you have to do is make two more cuts and you have quarter rounds!  No cuts and you have Half Rounds!

Here is a drawing I did about this earlier:







The picture below is one I found a while back on the net.  This fellow used 1" thick Fiberglass Pipe Insulation with MDF caps to add structural ridigital to their design and to make them easier to stack.  The white strips are 2" slats for window blinds.

[Gordy]

Excellent, thank you Ryan!   Not knowing any better... Would it make sense, in order to attain the thickness you need, to stack/layer a 16" tube inside an 18" inside a 20"... presuming you're cutting them anyway.

Gordy

[brj]

From the Knauf website, it appears that the jacket is a white kraft paper bonded to aluminum foil, and then reinforced with a fiberglass scrim.

So the question is, are you guys ordering the version with or without the jacket?  If the jacket contains aluminum foil, I'm guessing that it will be reflective, at least to higher frequencies.

[lupodwdm]

Does anyone have a place where I can order this?

[lonewolfny42]

Does anyone have a place where I can order this?

Maybe work your way from here.... http://www.knauffiberglass.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=knauf.dspFlash

[Red Dragon Audio]

lupodwdm
I would call Owens-Corning or Knauf directly to find a local distributor of their products.  You won't find rigid fiberglass at Lowe's or Home Depot.

Or you could start calling local Industrial Insulation businesses.

 

brj,
You can buy the Fiberglass Pipe Insulation with or without the jacket.  The jacket will reflect higher frequencies and since the tubes are round surfaces, it will act more like a diffusor which can be beneficial.  Since the tubes are 4.00 PCF, they are going to absorb high frequencies more efficiently than the 6.00PCF panels.  

You might consider ordering them plain and experimenting with a temporary jacket and without.  Then you can see if you like the added mid/high frequency absorbtion or the diffusion.  The outer jacket will not interfere with it's bass absorbtion properties though Ethan Winer has done tests with OC panels of varying thicknesses, densities, jacketing etc...he found the flat OC 705 panels of 4" worked better with the FSK jacket facing into the room.  So maybe the outer jacket on the pipe insulation is a good thing to act like some kind of semi resistive membrane.
 


Gordy,
I was going to propose exactly what you just said... that if you wanted even greater thicknesses in your "half rounds" and "quarter rounds" that you get varying diameters to fit within each tube.  

Remember that you can order the Fiberglass Pipe Insulation in thicknesses up to 6".  If you get a 10" diameter Fiberglass Pipe Insulator with a wall thickness of 6", that means the overall outer diameter of the unit is actually 10" + 6"x2 = 22"  That's a big pipe.  To get another one to fit inside that one, I would get a 2" diameter pipe with 3" thick walls.  That would give you quite a bit of absorbtion where ever it was placed.

Keep in mind that if you stack your fiberglass insulation, don't use jacketed layers below the top layer.  Only the top layer should have the membrane if there is a membrane at all.

You could also purchase plain panels of 6.00PCF and put them behind your half and quarter rounds like so :

[Gordy]

  I'll blame the late hour...  I mis-read and was under the impression that a 2" thickness was the only option, thanks for the clarification.  The less one has to cut/manipulate fiberglass before getting it covered or encapsulated somehow, the better!

[Red Dragon Audio]

  I'll blame the late hour...  I mis-read and was under the impression that a 2" thickness was the only option, thanks for the clarification.  The less one has to cut/manipulate fiberglass before getting it covered or encapsulated somehow, the better!

Here are the prices I got from my local Owens Corning distributor. Price reflects linear foot price.  These are prices with an ASJ paper cover, but if you order plain pipe insulation it's cheaper.  Each tube comes in a 3ft segment so multiply these prices by three to get price per unit. Prices do not include tax.

8"x3"  -     $12.53

10"x3"   -    $13.61

8"x4"    -    $15.10

10"x4"    -   $19.88

18"x4"   -     $39.26

8"x6"   -      $31.60

10"x6"   -     $35.88

18"x6"   -    $55.35


Here are the prices I got from my local Knauf Rep.

8"x3" -                              12.10 lin ft
10"x3"     -                                   13.97
8"x4"   -                                       15.46
10"x4"    -                                    19.70
18"x4"  -                                      28.70
20"x4"   -                                     30.79

[Rob Babcock]

Wow, Ryan!   That looks great!

[brj]

8"x3"  -     $12.53

Just to be clear... this refers to an 8 inch outer diameter with a insulation thickness of 3 inches?  (So this would be suitable for a 5 inch pipe?)  Or does the 8 refer to an inner diameter?

Thanks for the great information!

[Rob Babcock]

Inner diameter, I believe.

[Red Dragon Audio]

8"x3"  -     $12.53

Just to be clear... this refers to an 8 inch outer diameter with a insulation thickness of 3 inches?  (So this would be suitable for a 5 inch pipe?)  Or does the 8 refer to an inner diameter?

Thanks for the great information!

8" refers to inner diamter...or in other words this piece will cover an 8" diameter pipe with a 3"thick wall.

So the overall outer diameter would be 8" + 3"x2 = 14"

[Scott F.]

Chances are if you order the pipe covering plain (no ASJ) you will have to buy a full case. Add to that, you will probably have to wait until your dealer brings in a truckload for their stock (truckload=40' trailer). I doubt they would order a separate case unless you picked up shipping from the plant (which gets pretty pricey). If you buy from their stock, they should sell you individual pieces (broken case).

The ASJ peals off pretty easy. If memory serves, below the white ASJ outer jacket is a layer of FSK (Foil Skrim Kraft, a thin foil) attached to the white outer jacket. You would need to remove the ASJ in order to get the pipe covering to absorb any sound.

You're right, the 8 refers to the outer pipe diameter, the 3 refers to the insulation thickness. One thing, make sure when you order the covering that the guys don't 'nest' the coverings to get you the 3" thickness you desire. If they are out of stock on 8x3, they will give you 8x1 and 10x2 to achieve your 8x3 thickenss.

Not that it would be horrible but it would have you pealing two sections of ASJ off plus it could get a little weird trying to hold the two pieces together while you are tyring to apply a cloth covering or stuff the void with loose fiberglass or mineral wool. I guess you could glue the inner and outer sections together if you don't have a choice.

It's been a while since I was involved in the industrial insulation business (over ten years actually) but I think 2 1/2" thick pipe covering is the thickest you can get without 'nesting' different sizes to get the overall thickness you need. I might be wrong, it could be 3" but I know at some point they start nesting.

If you are looking to use this as a bass trap, mineral wool is a better absorber. You will have to order what is called 'Pipe and Tank Wrap'. It comes preformed to nominal pipe diameters and I want to say you can order it unfaced (no ASJ). Chances are, the distributor will not have this in stock. You'll have to order it and wait. I'd also suggest stuffing it (packed) with loose mineral wool to provide and even denser/thicker absorber.