Kanuf Pipe Insulation

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 8427 times.

Red Dragon Audio

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 884
    • http://www.reddragonaudio.com
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #20 on: 12 Apr 2005, 06:44 am »
Thanks Scott F. for the added information here and it's good to know you worked in the Industrual Insulation business.  You can probably help us out further with your inside knowledge.  :wink:

Quote from: Scott F.
Chances are if you order the pipe covering plain (no ASJ) you will have to buy a full case. Add to that, you will probably have to wait until your dealer brings in a truckload for their stock (truckload=40' trailer). I doubt they would order a separate case unless you picked up shipping from the plant (which gets pretty pricey). If you buy from their stock, they should sell you individual pieces (broken case).


My local distributor gets a truckload every one to two weeks from Knauf so the wait ain't all bad considering they don't charge shipping; wait time will vary with location of course.  They said there is no min. quantity difference if I order plain or faced pipe insulation but this again will proably vary with every distributor out there.   My guess is that  folks in larger metropolitan areas won't have a hard time getting waht they want and those people in more rural areas might face more difficulties...but that's just a guess. :)

Quote from: Scott F.
The ASJ peals off pretty easy. If memory serves, below the white ASJ outer jacket is a layer of FSK (Foil Skrim Kraft, a thin foil) attached to the white outer jacket. You would need to remove the ASJ in order to get the pipe covering to absorb any sound.


You are correct in that there is a combo ASJ/FSK cover but it only needs to be removed if you want absorbtion of higher frequencies.  The tubes with their cover left intact will absorb lower frequencies just fine but will be more reflective to sound waves as frequency increases.  This isn't a bad thing since they are curved surfaces which will act as diffusors.  If your room is "too dead", then keeping the facing on could be good, but if your room is "too live", then peeling the facing off could be the way to go.

Quote from: Scott F.
You're right, the 8 refers to the outer pipe diameter


...of the pipe being insulated...not the outer diameter of the Pipe Insulation itself.  That will be 8" + 3"x2=14"

Quote from: Scott F.
One thing, make sure when you order the covering that the guys don't 'nest' the coverings to get you the 3" thickness you desire. If they are out of stock on 8x3, they will give you 8x1 and 10x2 to achieve your 8x3 thickenss.


If your dealer/distributor tries to give you nested pipe insulation don't accept it.  They have the thicknesses you need in single pieces and you shouldn't have to and peel and glue these seperate pieces...that is unless you want to do the extra work.  :wink: :lol:

Quote from: Scott F.
It's been a while since I was involved in the industrial insulation business (over ten years actually) but I think 2 1/2" thick pipe covering is the thickest you can get without 'nesting' different sizes to get the overall thickness you need. I might be wrong, it could be 3" but I know at some point they start nesting.


 Bob Gardner at Knauf sent me a PDF that states they have thicknesses up to 6" thick.  If anyone would likea copy of this PDF file, just email me and I will email it to you.  The OC rep said they had prefabbed tubes up to 6" thick as well. (no nesting required)

Quote from: Scott F.
If you are looking to use this as a bass trap, mineral wool is a better absorber. You will have to order what is called 'Pipe and Tank Wrap'. It comes preformed to nominal pipe diameters and I want to say you can order it unfaced (no ASJ). Chances are, the distributor will not have this in stock. You'll have to order it and wait. I'd also suggest stuffing it (packed) with loose mineral wool to provide and even denser/thicker absorber.


Does OC and Knauf still supply mineral wool pipe insulation?  I think it's all fiberglass now.  :?:

The higher density stuff works quite well for bass absorbtion; panels of 5-6PCF so this 4PCF pipe insulation will work, but it's going to need to be thicker to get the same effect I'm guessing...but then again, it might just not absorb as well as higher density stuff.  I've not done tests so I can't say with absolute certainty.

skrivis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 808
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #21 on: 12 Apr 2005, 01:16 pm »
Quote from: heavystarch
Hey Guys,

I have looked into Knauf 1000˚ Pipe Insulation and it will work but greater thicknesses are needed since it's less dense than Owens Corning 705.  The simple flat panels like OC 705 might be more cost effective but I haven't done a cost comparison just yet.  I might later on when I get around to it.

Concerning Jon Risch's design
Jon Risch doesn't even state on his website how dense his "bass tube traps" are so he has no reference to say that Fiberglass  ...


This is all well and good, but would be far more effective if placed out in the room, rather than at the boundaries.

Scott F.

Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #22 on: 12 Apr 2005, 02:23 pm »
Quote from: heavystarch
Does OC and Knauf still supply mineral wool pipe insulation? I think it's all fiberglass now.


OC stills makes mineral wool pipe covering. There are a couple of other comanies out there that seem to have a decent market share too, Roxul and GLT. The GLT is whats referred to as Pipe and Tank Wrap. It comes unfaced. It's only rated to 850 degrees where the mineral wool pipe covering is rated to 1200 degrees. Guessing, the difference is probably due to the density.

Heres a link to my local insulation supplier. They have quite a few PDFs that you can download to see the product. Unfortunately, very few absorption specs since it's used for it's thermal characteristics. You might be able to find more info at the mfgr's sites.

http://www.brauersupply.com/ins.htm

Red Dragon Audio

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 884
    • http://www.reddragonaudio.com
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #23 on: 12 Apr 2005, 02:53 pm »
Thanks for the link Scott! :)


skrivis,
Placing these bass absorbers near walls is simple a matter of convenience.  It is true they would work better if pulled out further into the room but most folks don't want or aren't allowed to have these suckers out in the room on account of it looking less than pretty. :wink:
 
From the drawings I provided all of the fiberglass pieces I have shown are placed so they have a reasonable amount of space between them and the walls.

Maybe folks would pull them out for serious listening sessions if they build the tubes.  That would work...and then they could slide them back against the walls when done.
 :)

ctviggen

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 5251
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #24 on: 12 Apr 2005, 03:19 pm »
I think absorbers work better near the corners because all room modes end at the corners.  If you place the absorbers elsewhere, they may not interact with certain room modes.  If you're trying to knock out specific nodes, then testing to find out the highest point of the nodes and placing the absorber there is the best solution.

John Casler

Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #25 on: 12 Apr 2005, 08:59 pm »
First off, I am not an expert (as many know) but generally act like I am :lol:  :lol:

A "bass trap" should be designed to do one thing:

That is to trap or ineffectuate reflected bass energy from retruning to the direct bass path and negatively affecting any direct energy with its return energy.

I have many times stated that the job of room treatment is to make room boundaries "acoustically transparent".  Like they weren't there.

That said, bass moves out from the speaker in large circular waves and travels to the listener.

But the bad news is that some of this energy will travel along boundaries (floors/ceilings/walls) until they intersect in what we call "corners" (two surfaces intersecting) and "tri-corners" (three surfaces intersecting).

The energies that travel along these surfaces will ultimatley be "directed" into each other.  Depending on their individual strenghs they will then join/sum and rebound or fire back into the room, to go back through the direct energy wave and apply their remaining energies against the ones we need to hear.

This anti or opposing energy can either "add" energy (Modes) to the direct  wave if it is traveling in the same path and direction, or it can subtract energy (Nodes) if it is traveling against incoming direct energy.

Bass can also "rebound" straight off the rear wall, but its energy, depending on frequency, is also deflected along the wall much like how waves/ripples move in a swimming pool.

So the goal again is to keep any and all "non-direct" waves from coming back and attacking the direct waves and degrading their sonic properties.

The most concentrated "return" waves are usually those which have "collected" in the corners and tricorners and are thrown back at the original.

The second most damaging are those which reflect exactly off the back wall and straight back at the oncoming direct waves

Corner and tricorner bass traps are generally the first line of defense.

These traps don't have to be "store bought", or DIY, but they seem to work the best since it is in their design to do the job.

That said, some well placed furnture can also "assist" in the job.

Placing large couches and chairs on the rear wall or in room cornes will certainly help to the extent of the "specific" area they cover and absorb or block.

Anything in its path will either absorb, deflect, or reflect energy depending of several factors including size, shape, density and texture.

But seldon do they run the full length of the corners from floor to ceiling, or all along the front or rear wall.

Now I might stick my neck out and say that bass devices used anywhere but along the wall will have "little" overall effect (or maybe I should suggest "less") compared to those in the corners which can effectively "trap" the bass from "firing/rebounding" back into the room.  Or those along a "highly traveled" wall, where they can perform smaller trapping/absorbing/diffusing duties.

Bass devices that are placed "into" the room (off the walls) merely offer an obstacle (unless it is HUGE) for the bass wave to encounter, be slightly absorbed by, and then "move around" and continue traveling to a room boundary.

So effectiveness is actually greatest in the corners and tricorners.  It is (IMHO) secondarily effective simply along walls of travel, and then least effective in "open space" unless they are employed in large numbers or mass.

Just take that swimming pool example and stick a few upright logs for the ripples to encounter.  They will blow right by them, unless you plant a forest of them.

Just my meanderings on the simple physics and simple observation of how it works.

I welcome criticism, :nono:  agreement  :mrgreen: and other comments or clarifications. :o

Red Dragon Audio

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 884
    • http://www.reddragonaudio.com
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #26 on: 13 Apr 2005, 06:48 am »
John,

I think you mean bass radiates in a spherical pattern away from the speakers...not a circular pattern.  (hey you asked for clarifications :wink: )

Bass traps absorb bass wherever they are placed in a room.  They are effective in corners and tri-corners just like you said but they still absorb no matter where they sit in a room.  

Free standing Bass traps aren't like logs in a pool.  Logs are solid objects through which no water can pass so water goes around it.

Bass traps are porous and therefore allow sound waves to penetrate and be absorbed.

We've already discussed this before that more coverage is always better.  Whether you place your traps near room boundaries or out into the room, the more the merrier.

If you only use panels to cover four of the tri corners in a room, you're still missing out on 95% of the rest of the room (unless those corner panels you built are absolutely massive :wink:)

That's a good start, but you still would want to treat/cover the other corners, walls and ceiling to stop the bass from ringing in the room.


Have you ever run your finger around the rim of a crystal goblet filled with water?  Do it now and you'll notice how the water's surface starts to dance around as you steadily hit the right frequency (the right speed at which your finger causes the glass to "sing" or resonate).

Those waves kind of represent what is going on in a room with music though it's not quite that simple (and it's in more than two dimensions).  You get these waves that start to ring and linger longer than they should.  That's what the bass traps would reduce.  That ringing of bass waves like those ringing waves in a crystal goblet glass that is being rubbed steadily.

That is how I think of it in my head.

Of course I'm sure there is more to it than that but it's good we're about this still.  Lots of fun I say.  

 :D

John Casler

Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #27 on: 13 Apr 2005, 03:10 pm »
Quote from: heavystarch
 John,

I think you mean bass radiates in a spherical pattern away from the speakers...not a circular pattern.  (hey you asked for clarifications :wink: )

 ...


Hi Ryan,

You are 100% correct I did mean spherical

Quote from: heavystarch
 Bass traps absorb bass wherever they are placed in a room. They are effective in corners and tri-corners just like you said but they still absorb no matter where they sit in a room.
...


Again correct, but corner placement allows them to be "more" effective.  This increased effectivness is due to the fact that they will "trap" not only the direct wave (as they would standing out in the room), but they also will have opportunity to trap the collected (and more concentrated) energy that has been directed to the corners as it rebounds out into the room.

To be sure a "free standing trap" would also trap "return" energy from walls and corners, but because it will be "dispersing" rather than compressing (as in the corners) it will trap less.

Bass waves are simply cyclic pressurizations, that begin to disperse (that is expand) in all directions as they move away from the source.  So in fact they lose energy the further they travel.

However, when they encounter a boundary they pressurize against it, as they find a path(s) that will allow them to continue.  If the boundary meets another boundary (corner) the energies following these boundaries, sum, and experience an increase in pressure.

That is why bass is always "loudest" if you stand in a corner.  It will also measure louder in the corner.

The term "bass trap" is derived from placing the device in the corner and "trapping" it so it has no place to escape to.  It absorbs the "direct", and traps the "reflected" when placed there.

I would suggest that if we were looking for efficiency, (and this is an EXTREME generalization) traps would be used in the following priorities:

1) Tri-corners
2) Corners
3) Along Boundaries
4) Free standing in the room


Quote from: heavystarch
 We've already discussed this before that more coverage is always better. Whether you place your traps near room boundaries or out into the room, the more the merrier. ...


I agree the more the merrier


Quote from: heavystarch
 If you only use panels to cover four of the tri corners in a room, you're still missing out on 95% of the rest of the room (unless those corner panels you built are absolutely massive )

That's a good start, but you still would want to treat/cover the other corners, walls and ceiling to stop the bass from ringing in the room.
...


Good points and the "ringing" is simply the energy that has been released that has no place to go until it is either absorbed or dissipates.  Much like how the energy of people in a swimming pool continues even for a while after the leave the pool. (except sound dissipates faster of course)

Another "trick" that I mentioned in another thread, is to open doors and windows in the listening room whenever possible.  This is better than trapping since it allows the energy that finds that opening, to totally escape the room and bass cannot reflect/rebound from an opening.

It de-pressurizes the room, to a large extent.

klh

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 925
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #28 on: 13 Apr 2005, 03:35 pm »
Opening doors or windows would be especially good if they were symetrically placed in the room... if not, soundstage and imaging would probably get messed up and thus offset the effect of the depressurization.

Red Dragon Audio

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 884
    • http://www.reddragonaudio.com
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #29 on: 14 Apr 2005, 04:03 am »
I like this thread! :lol:

 John nicely written illustrations describing your thinking and takes on this matter of sound waves within a room.  I like it! :D

dnd

Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #30 on: 27 Apr 2005, 01:47 pm »
Quote from: klh
Opening doors or windows would be especially good if they were symetrically placed in the room... if not, soundstage and imaging would probably get messed up and thus offset the effect of the depressurization.


I thought this too, but it turns out not to always be the case.  I used to deliberately keep a door open in my room thinking it would "balance" the sound.  Then, after speaking with Ric Cummins about his Room Lenses [and emailing him a diagram of my room], he suggested I shut the door because he thought it was a problem for my bass response.

The result was the elimination of a 10dB null at 74Hz.  There were other improvements too, but that was the most dramatic measurable change.  I was dumbfounded that it was better...and that Ric saw the problem/solution by looking at a diagram on a piece of paper while sitting in Oklahoma [I am in PA].

dnd

Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #31 on: 27 Apr 2005, 01:53 pm »
BTW - here is a link to the DYI instructions for that photo posted on the first page of this thread:

http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/traps/traps.html

Red Dragon Audio

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 884
    • http://www.reddragonaudio.com
Kanuf Pipe Insulation
« Reply #32 on: 2 May 2005, 06:04 pm »
thanks dnd for posting that link.

I had lost the link but kept the picture.  The guidlines he has set here will be very useful for folks.