[fajimr]

Well, thanks to (or should I say ‘because of’) all of you who were so supportive and especially to Hugh for his posts in this forum and his responses to my e-mails, I have made the decision to take the AKSA jump.  Mind you- this is a mental jump as I haven’t sent Hugh any money yet.  I will need to save a little first and sell off other equipment.  And the decision to have Hugh build modules or DIMyself is still hanging….

Since I won’t be able to get the GK-1 for a year or two down the road, I would love to get some feedback about possible preamps; something not too expensive but good enough to serve the AKSA 55+ well.   I will be keeping my Ellis 1801b speakers and plan at a very later date to upgrade my Tjoeb 99 CDP.  My listening preferences vary but mostly I find myself enjoying acoustical music.

Here are some ideas I have garnered from discussions here and on AGON.  I would certainly appreciate any and all comments on these and other possible solutions. I would like to keep the price to around 500.00 unless there is something exceptionally better (in your opinion for a little more.

In a somewhat relative order of preference (based on nothing other than way too many hours on-line reading various threads)

Bottlehead Foreplay:  379.00 in kit form
This seems to have gotten some pretty good reviews.  It’s relatively inexpensive and a real plus is that it is a kit (which the manufacturer says is for beginners with no experience).  This would be my first choice, with all things being equal, for the experience building the preamp.  If something else was better in the same price range, I would forgo the experience and enjoy the music.

Eastern Electric Minimax:  525.00 used on AGON
This seems to have quite a lot of good reviews.  I believe someone had one matched to an AKSA.  Is the 150.00 difference worth it?

Transcendent Grounded Grid:  499 for the kit.  ??? have yet to see one come up used.
Similar to the previous two- this seems to have received some pretty good reviews.  This kit might be a little more difficult to do for this DIY dummy.

Creek Passive  100- 250 used for older versions.
Dave Ellis mentioned this one in another thread which caught my attention.  The price is certainly good.  Not sure what the passive design brings to the music.. nothing right?  Is that good or bad????

NAD 1020.  100.00 used on AGON
This is something I caught in a thread.  Further research resulted in some decent reviews. Nothing glowing but for the price…….

[andyr]

Congratulations on deciding to join the AKSA crew!

I think your idea of building a good kit pre-amp is an excellent one as it will show you that you'll be able to cope with the AKSA.

There's another good kit around which gets good press - the Hagerman Bugle.  See here:
http://www.hagtech.com/bugle.html

I doubt you'd want the $395 "Pro Variable EQ" version as this is only for playing early LPs which have non-RIAA equalisation (by definition, this means mono!).  So that means you can buy the Bugle and PS "half-kits" for $60 and then hve fun getting all the parts from Parts Connexion, Michael Percy or Digikey.

Good luck,

Andy

[WEEZ]

I think andyr was referring to the Phono amp from Hagtech. The Oboe has line stage plus phono.

Two other options would be Decware or AVA.

Actually, any of these could be considered permanant not interim.

FWIW,

WEEZ

[Rocket]

Hi,

The eastern electric minimax will have better resale value.

Regards

Rod

[mgalusha]

I've built both the Grounded Grid and the Hagerman Cornet. Both offer excellent (if somewhat different) sound for the money. The GG is a complete kit while the Cornet is a 1/2 kit and you have to source all the parts yourself. If you build a GG, I suggest a better volume pot as the stock one has poor tracking and can be somewhat noisy.

Rod is probably right about the EE stuff having better resale value. Of course if you like kit building then resale value might not be as important to you.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Mike G.

[Greg Erskine]

hi fajimr,

What features do you need in a pre-amp?

I use no pre-amp on most of my amps just using the volume control on the CD player. On my AKSA I use a TLP/N but could get away without it. If you don't need a pre-amp for a while you could put this money towards a GK-1.

Alternatively, you could make a passive pre-amp with a nice volume control that could become part of the GK-1 in the future.

[AKSA]

Jim,

I've read your post with interest.  Here's my 2c, hope it is helpful.

If you want a preamp, but would like to buy an AKSA 55W kit first, then I'd suggest getting the amp going first, living with it for six months or so, then revisiting the decision to acquire a preamp after a rethink.

At that point you will be much more confident of your abilities since your power amp will have been a reality for six months, and you will be able to consider the sonic aspects more closely.  The fact is that the GK1 is voiced specifically for the AKSA power amps, and while the Decware, Foreplay and Eastern Electric are all very good products, they are unlikely to create the AKSA 'house sound' for which the GK1 was designed.

The GK1 is much more expensive than the Foreplay, starting at $US646 for the EL version, and around $US865 for the manual switcher.  As in all things, you get what you pay for, and the GK1 has considerably more complexity.  However, it's full featured, and includes everything except the case, even down to two separate, custom transformers.  And if you want a budget version of the GK1 with lower grade bass, top end and soundstage, the TLP is available for $US314 - and it's also voiced for the AKSA amps.

Whatever you do, don't be fooled into thinking you need to make the decision now, particularly as you begin as an DIY amp neophyte, since the experience landscape will change enormously when you've got your first amp going........

Cheers,

Hugh

[fajimr]

hugh said:
The fact is that the GK1 is voiced specifically for the AKSA power amps, and while the Decware, Foreplay and Eastern Electric are all very good products, they are unlikely to create the AKSA 'house sound' for which the GK1 was designed.


yes hugh you are right on target... while reading the other posts I thought I might need to redirect the question and ask more specifically about the 'synergy' (I don't have a better audio term) between the choices I put out and the AKSA.  I didn't know what each option might bring to the 'sound' quality. I am not expecting them to have the AKSA sound which you have designed but am interested in how they might influence the sound.

So hugh if one of my reasons for buying a preamp kit was to help me get some skill in kit building before I took on the Amp, is the Gk-1 also considered more of a "beginner's" kit as you say on the website.  I was thinking that I would get something a little cheaper (like the bottlehead) for the experience then move to the Amp.

o.k. so I don't NEED a preamp.  I wasn't sure this was an option but now it is   as Greg noted I do have volume control on my CDP so could run it direct.  I wonder how many out there run their AKSAs without a preamp?  how might the sound be different (and why)?  I realize that many of my questions require responses based on subjective experiences but I am also interested in the more philosophical/theoretical question about what the preamp (and its inherent design) brings to the system.

I'd still like to keep the 'interim' preamp an option right now.  if not for anything else, then for my own continued audio growth.    thanks all for the ideas and keep them coming...

[fajimr]

o.k. I mis-spoke (or miswrote) above when I said the Gk-1 was a beginner's kit as I was looking at the TLP info on the AKSA site.  

So how about this option as the first step?  After case and volume control, the price would be similar to the other preamps I already listed.

[PSP]

Jim,
An extremely simple DIY-friendly preamp solution might be to build your own passive preamp... if you are only going to listen to one source, all you need is a log taper volume pot (or stepped attenuator) placed in front of your AKSA amp inputs.  If you want several sources, you need to add a source selector switch.  You could build this into the same case as the AKSA (I did this before I bought the TLP, and then the GK-1), or you could put it into a seperate box (the only caution is that interconnect lengths from the passive to the power amp should be kept short).

Sonically, a passive built with a good selector switch (a Grayhill?) and a nice attenuator (DACT, Goldpoint, etc.) feeding an AKSA 55 will give you a very clean, detailed, and pure presentation.  I listened to my system like that for several months before building the TLP.

When I added the TLP (and later, the GK-1) the music became much more involving; I found that I would put my reading down and listen to the wonderful music much more often than I did with the passive.

I suggest the pasive because it is a good interim solution (that some people prefer... after all, the signal path is extremely pure) that is not overly expensive or complex.  If you would like more specific suggestions regarding construction, please leave a private message.  

Regarding the TLP... this is a great little preamp.  If the GK-1 didn't exist, if you had never heard one, never heard people raving about it, you could listen to the TLP and be happy for a very long time.  I have my TLP in my bedroom system (love it!), I built a TLP and AKSA 100 for my brother-in-law (and he loves it!).... so the TLP is an excellent option that you should also consider.  If you want to add multiple source selection to the TLP, I can show you how to do that too.  The only caution I would give with respect to the TLP is that it should be built into its own enclosure.... in my first TLP build I tried to stuff it into the same enclosure as the AKSA 55, and fought hum for months until I put the TLP in its own enclosure... then it was quiet and very, very nice.

Good luck,
Peter

[jules]

hi fajmir,

I'd guess the forum watched your decision making process on the way to an amp purchase with some anticipation  I'm sure you'll get a lot of satisfaction out of the process and the product  

You asked about people using passive pre-amps [basically some sort of attenuator] and I'm happily in that group, though I have a GK-1 sitting here in a box ready for construction. Goldpoint, DACT or Elma are your main options though that still gives you the choice of a full ladder form or a shunt type. I think Hugh leans toward the shunt type which slightly simplifies the process, reduces the number of resistors needed and allows the use of a single high quality resistor in one key position where you need a heap of them in a ladder. If you do go this way the process of putting one together is a good soldering exercise and as Greg said, the attenuator can be used later in a GK-1. It also allows you to put a little  of your own customization into the process in that you can design a non-linear volume control. This has character! If you do go this way there are various older posts in this forum that you could check back on for more details.

The result works beautifully and I am extremely happy with mine. It's a good way to get a feel for your amp in its basic form and I assure you you won't be sitting there thinking "this is ok but maybe it needs a bit more ...... " . I'm going to write a review of my amp soon and I have been totally bowled over by its performance even though it's currently operating through some fairly ordinary bookshelf speakers using very ordinary cable and a basic CD player.

Jules

[Carlman]

I personally haven't had much luck with the 1 passive I tried... it was a DIY from a guy who used top quality parts.. but I felt the variable output from a cd player was better.

I have used a Decware ZTpre which I think sounds like a passive should... it had a little darkness to it but it was a good darkness.

I liked a lot of preamps with the AKSA but I don't get why you'd do a passive when you already have a variable out on the source.

I used a cd walkman as a source and 'preamp'... as well as a laptop's headphone output as experiments... I had no issue with these for cheap interim solutions.

The EE Minimax was my favorite for transparency and ultimate palpability with the AKSA.  If you buy one at 500 or so, you could sell it for the same.  Look for one with NOS tubes if you can.... Didn't John Casler have one for sale in the Trading Post?

Anyway, I vote Minimax... probably no surprise... because I know it'll sound great, you'll take no hit on resale, and you get to experiment with tubes.... oh, and it's already built.  (BTW, if the one you buy isn't 'upgraded' ask Bill O to provide that service... it'll cost a little but it's worth it with the AKSA.)  

I'd be VERY interested to hear the GK-1 vs. any preamp with the AKSA.  So, whatever you choose, please post your reactions here when you get around to it.

Thanks and hope this helps,
Carl

[Seano]

What do I think?

I think you'd be best off adopting the KISS principle.

Keep It Simple, Stupid.

It is so easy to run away with gleeful enthusiasm when you'd finally decided to jam down the readies for a new audio toy.

Given that you don't have the cash for a pre-amp at the moment and your CD source has a volume control then just plug it straight in to the amp. If nothing else there'll be one less chain in the audio loop which can only be a sonically good thing.

Cheaper too.

[jules]

quite so ... I completely and utterly withdraw my previous statement about attenuators. I had missed the point about a vol control on the CD player .... although, maybe fajmir could just put a ladder together for fun. If you use the brightly coloured resistors with the variegated stripey bands [rather the the ones that look like brown turds] you get a fully sick product that looks like some crazy left-over from '50's electronics ....   sorry, got a bit non-audiophillic there!

jules

[Martin]

Jim
 I second Peter's comments.
I was a first time DIY when I purchased an Aksa 100 watt nirvana and
a TLP nirvana. The only other time I had held a soldering iron was about a
month prior when I assembled a pair of crossovers for a set of DIY loudspeakers. I was to say the least, a bit intimidated.
 However I knew that if I ever wanted HI-FI I would have to build it.
I built the TLP first. It took me about 5 evenings and help me gain confidence when I started the 100 watt Aksa.
It has given me a great sense of accoplishment and a wonderfully musical stereo.
Hughes help was without a doubt second to none.
 I have since added a selector switch and a sub out to my TLP and built a set of Aksonics SE.

clink clink
Martin

[fajimr]

thanks everyone for your thoughtful and insightful comments.  I thought I would summarize what I got out of this discussion, mainly for myself but also for any feedback or clarifications that may be needed.

The discussion started with a few posters providing some options for other preamp kits, including Hagman, Decware, Eastern Electric.  I think in the end the MiniMax was the most highly rated.  I was a bit surprised no one even mentioned the Bottlehead (although Hugh did compare it to his GK-1), especially since it is linked in his site (something I found later).  The discussion switched gears a little, inquiring what I wanted in a preamp- actually one of the reasons why I asked about the sonic influences of the preamps I listed was to get some feedback about what preamps actually do.   In other words, I didn't really know what I wanted.

The discussion then moved in a direction of ‘hey you really don’t NEED a preamp’, especially since I had volume control via my CDP and to passive preamps that I could build myself.  From the discussions it appears that the main role of the passive preamp is to simply deliver the music as purely as possible, providing volume control and the ability to switch sources.  There was mixed reactions to how well passive preamps worked which made me wonder about passive 'design'.  Since I already have volume control and only one source, I probably don’t need to go the passive route.

There was some discussion about the AKSA TLP, an option that I had originally overlooked.  This seems to be a viable solution, especially since I am hoping to get a little kit building experience before I decide who is going to build my AKSA modules. I figure that for the price that Hugh charges (which I agree is very inexpensive) for building the module, I could build the TLP and have that under my belt.  

But I just ordered a few inexpensive kits, a somewhat nice Weller variable temp solder station, and a multimeter so if I am feeling good after doing the three kits and can get the sirens to blow and the lights to flash without shocking myself too silly, I might just jump into the amp.


One question that still persists:  In other discussions about preamps I always seem to see talk about “Gain”- could anyone either point me to a place where I can learn about it or give me the $0.25 tour?  


Thanks again for the responses

[AKSA]

Hi Jim,

Preamps date from the phono era, where the tiny signals from the cartridge needed almost thousandfold amplification before a power amp could deal with them.  Since the recording process on a record attenuates the bass and accentuates the treble, an equalization process (called the 'RIAA') is needed as well, and this greatly complicates the design.  So, preamps were complex beasts.

Then, in 1983, along came the CD player.  The output is typically 2Vpp, a HUGE output by phono standards, and it needs no equalization.  People were very pleased;  they could throw away their preamps, and just connect the CD output via a volume control to the amp.  Wunderbar!!

But, a problem remained.  Many of the new CD afficionados had tape recorders, tuners, even a few phonos remained, and they wanted source selection as well.  This clearly was a task formerly done by a preamp!

The Japanese manufacturers obliged by producing integrated amplifiers, which combined source selection, some gain for a phono or tuner if needed, with their power amps.  But the price of this convenience was quality, and the really serious high end manufacturers scoffed at this approach, continuing to produce only power amps and preamps as separate components.

We now enter into religious belief zones;  preamps have since been found to have several strange qualities which are worth having.

1.  Preamps are no longer used ostensibly for gain, but rather as source selectors and volume controls.

2.  Preamps can be made with vacuum tubes, little ones, which last twenty years, not like the big bottles on power amps which need frequent replacement.  Vacuum tubes confer sonics which are unique.  They sound like - ahem - vacuum tubes, and nothing can quite emulate them.  For this reason, the tube preamp can also be considered as an analogue sound processor.

3.  A good preamp will also enhance imaging, and bring vocals to the front, while de-emphasizing instrumental backing.  This makes the presentation more natural, more believable, and thus more satisfying.

4.  In this digital age, gain is no longer strictly required, though many manufacturers include gain just to make the point you are not wasting your money!!  The Bottlehead Foreplay has considerable gain, around 12dB as I recall.  But the GK1 has vestigial gain, around 2dB, while the TLP drops in gain, around 0.92, or -0.75dB.  With the AKSA power amps, this is never a problem, as the gain of these amps is set high at 32dB to account for use of passive preamps.

In closing, yes, the TLP is a very good candidate for your purposes.  There are two versions, the stocker at $AUD340, and the Nirvana upgrade at $AUD410.  This component was the basis for further development resulting in the GK1, so it's pretty good quality.  A couple of people here, most notably PSP (hi Peter!), have both the GK1 and the TLP and can give you a short comparison if you are interested in more information.

And I'll say it again, 'NOTHING SOUNDS QUITE LIKE A VACUUM TUBE'.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Rom]

Hi all,

It seems to me that I have to chime in, as I'm one of those who have the TLP and GK1 but I don't have here to make a very valid side by side comparison.

Let me share what I have experience on the construction side.

The TLP is very easy to built , in fact thats the most easy one for me to built from all the electronic kit Hugh sells.

While the hardest one is the GK1 as these has a lot of parts and if not carefull enough, you can easily make mistakes and will start you emailing Hugh quite a lot.

Sound wise, AKSA has a very distiguished sound on its own.
and the evolution of the 55W which I have first owm was staggering to where the 55WN+ is now.

Please excuse my English as these is not my mother tounge and just most of the time use the best word I know to describe. Staggerring may be a bit too much for others but I think thats the best word to describe it.

Cheers to all,
Rom

[fajimr]

hugh

you continually amaze me... thanks for the history, design insights, and philosophy behind preamps.  and most of all, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to me.  I truely DO appreciate it.

And rom-
your english is great!  I think I got the 'gist' (main point) of your post just fine...

[AKSA]

Hi Rom,

Thanks for chiming in!!  I appreciate the insights, and frankly, I'd never seen the improvements from stocker AKSA to N+ as staggering, but I guess that's just (false?) modesty......  It's certainly very different, and I must thank you formally for your very considerable input.

Folks, Rom, who lives in Brindisi, Italy, works for the UN as a satellite technician, in fact he's the boss in his busy outpost, supporting European UN communications for thousands of users around the world.  His AKSA suggestions, care and attention to detail, and kindness towards me has been extraordinary, and I might hint that he's also a diesel-head like me, with huge interest in automotive technology.  And, in closing, his English is 1 whole lot better than my Tagalog - I doffs me cap, Rom you communicate very clearly.

Cheers,

Hugh