[Bingenito]

As I reenter this hobby of HiFi Have read my fair share of posts here on AC with people being skeptical or questioning the importance of a DAC and if a DAC is worth spending money on. I find this fascinating since your DAC in 2022 is your source. Especially Roon endpoint DACs.

When you think about Input to Output of a circuit or process if the input is suboptimal you cant fix it. Rolled throughout yield is a good example... if you have loss at step 1 @20%, step 2 only sees 80% maximum.

Comments that I have read are... "Is there really a difference between a $500 and $5000 DAC?", "I have a USB thumb drive type of DAC is this other high end DAC really better?" Well Yes your iPhone has a DAC and Speakers so if you subscribe to that school of thought you might as well just listen to music on your phone.

Sticking with that thought test your iPhone or iPad analog out (using its internal DAC via headphone jack) and then use the camera connector dongle USB output into a quality DAC. If you don't hear that difference you may want to take up culinary arts or begin scrap booking.

Some people will tell you to spend the bulk of your budget on speakers. Those who know better will probably tell you to get your source and amp square and select speakers that work will within your treated room. To that end take an entry level pair of speakers (Elac Debut or similar) and connect them to a true HiFi system. You will find that the soundstage and imaging are exceptional even for a $280 per of speakers. Then take expensive speakers and connect then to an AV Receiver and they will sound like flat 2 dimensional trash.

Conclusion is that the source matters. If you disagree cool... but if you disagree and you are the guy running a $10k analog rig/ Turntable I can't help you 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Most of the comments that I have read about people saying that there is not a difference between expensive and cheap DAC's are by people with cheap systems and cheap DAC's.  Even an expensive DAC may sound like crap with an AVR and cheap speakers or cheap ear buds.  The room,  type of music also plays a role as does the ability to sit and actually listen.

I have a modi plus DAC and it does not even come close to the sound of my Luxman and Chord Qutest DACs.

[mr_bill]

I've heard the Qutest dac and it is a good one to my ears.

A lot of hullabaloo about the chinese dacs topping smsl etc that measure so well on ASR - not sure what to think of that but have never tried one.

[Stercom]

Do you trust the measurements (most implementations of Delta Sigma DACs will measure basically the same) or your ears?

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Measurements are a place to start but it is not 100% of the sound.  My old Parasound A21 amp has better specs than my Pass X250 amp but the X250 sounds much better and it is not even close.

I have done a few DAC shootouts and comparisons and they all sounded different.  And as we went up in price, the sound just got better.

You can have a DAC with great specs but it may not have the wide soundstage or depth that another DAC has that does not have as good specs.  Or it may not be as dynamic or musical.  There is so much more than specs that affect the sound.

[OldNick]

A very refreshing discussion 

[Elizabeth]

The differences are small. I was perfectly happy with a used for $250 Adcom DAC until I got Magnepan 20.7 speakers.
I trid a $3K DAC and returned it. Finally my Dealer suggested a Marantz 7K CD player. I now use that as my DAC. it is only slightly better than the $250 DAC, but enoughbetter I threw $7,000 at it. Most people could not hear any difference.
My two cents.
Both are with a lot of power conditioning expensive cables and cords.

[Freo-1]

A high end DAC can make a large difference.  Anyone who has spent time with Chord DACs know what I'm talking about.   The Chord M-Scaler/Hugo-TT2 combination sounds amazing.  It largely corrects time-domain issues,  which is a big reason why digital doesn't sound good to many.  It also gets rid of the digital brightness,  and renders whatever is on the source material much more accurately. 


Off the shelf digital filtering only goes so far.  To really appreciate what digital is capable of, the filtering has to be better than the off the shelf solutions. 


The M-Scaler improves any DAC connected to it.  The upscaling algorithms work very well.   The M-Scaler improves the playback of the Devialet Expert Pro gear markedly. 


Going forward,  digital playback will be all about filtering and sampling.

[OldNick]

As a diy-er I can attest that every little bit of a dac build matters; implementation is everything.  From power supplies to output stage, down to resistor choices and internal wiring..it all affects the final sound.  I doubt that budget offerings differ a whole lot..but I don't actually know that either. 

[mcgsxr]

I have enjoyed modified streamers (variety of Bolder Squeezebox types), newer cheap USB DAC's (5-8 or so over the years), building my own Pi based DAC's (really enjoy the Allo Boss I have on a Pi), and older higher end DAC's (currently enjoying a Wadia di122).

Lots to enjoy for sure.  I would say there are differences between DAC's, and I enjoy playing with them. 

[Tyson]

If you love vinyl but struggle to enjoy digital, I would recommend getting a tube based DAC like the iFi iDSD Pro of the Audio Note Kits.  They don't measure as well as a SS DAC most of the time, but they have that 'magic' that vinyl lovers are so familiar with.

[whydontumarryit]

“if you have loss at step 1 @20%, step 2 only sees 80% maximum.”

That's a big 'if'. 'If' the point is getting your money's worth from devoting a subjective percentage to individual components my vote is 70% speaker, 25% recordings and 5% to whatever is left over.

[Bingenito]

The quote above is regarding throughput yield not a percentage allocation if how to spend your money.

If the DAC/ source is a turd and you lose 20% fidelity no speaker or amp can recreate the loss. Its gone.

[toocool4]

DAC’s do make a big difference, I have had the pleasure of listening to a friend’s dCS setup to know. Yes dCS is crazy money but you can really hear a big improvement over everything else.

Lastly I have to say everything in the signal path matters, they all add up to give you the final result. Stuff the BS this or that is more important than blah blah, take great care with everything as they all add up to final end result. Like the saying goes a chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

A few years back I did a DAC shootout with some audio friends.  The DAC's were a $500 IFI tube DAC, Bryston BDA1, Ultra, Chord Hugo, W4S DSDse with the Femto clock upgrade and an Exogal Comet.  The results were eye opening with each DAC sounding very different.  The Comet and Bryston sounded the best.  The IFI was mifi sounding.

I have several newer DAC's in house and they all sound different.  Emotiva Big Ego, Schiitt Modi 3, Luxman DA-06, Chord Qutest, AVA SL Ultra II with upgrades and a built in DAC in a $6K Cary Integrated.   They all sound different and as you go up in price the sound improves dramatically with the older $5K Luxman still sounding the best and the Qutest coming in second but it has the most detail.

I have heard many other expensive DAC's and even had them in my system and they all sounded different.

What further complicates the matter is that I own several different USB cables and they all sound different and they sound different with different DAC's which is a real head scratcher.

[Bingenito]

Oh man... you just said that cables matter. I see penguins on the North Pole.

Just kidding I have the same experience. My favorite inexpensive DAC (system dependent) is the old school MHDT Havana if your system is highly resolving. I would take that over today's rage like the Topping D90 or SMSL units that are raved about for their measurements.

I had an older but no longer in business to my knowledge April Music DAC that performed really well circa 2007. After that a custom Blue Circle BC501ob DAC that Gilbert made for me with an even larger power supply. Should have never sold this DAC it was insanely good but I exited the hobby.

When I got back into this I tried the Wyred DAC that you mention and it sounded flat and sterile compared to a Denafrips Venus II which was both more holographic and much fuller/ more fleshed out.

Moved to a Denafrips Terminator II with and without a DDC. Preferred without the DDC using a CD transport via AES EBU the best with that setup. The I2S direct (Wireworld platinum starlight 8 ethernet, my CDT was customized for it) to the DAC was very good but once I invested in a really good AES cable I preferred that. This config far outperformed my former Aurender to the extent that you did not even have to be seated in the sweet spot... you could be walking by and pick out which source was playing.

Today I run an MSB Premier with Powerbase and Network renderer and sold the CDT. Now I just use Roon direct to the MSB. So not only do DACs matter but the source feeding the DAC matters and to an other posters point the connection type.

[rbbert]

As far as USB cables in this application, I have found that those which separate the power lead from the signal lead mostly sound better than those that don’t.  YMMV.

[Jeff_From_Michigan]

“if you have loss at step 1 @20%, step 2 only sees 80% maximum.”

That's a big 'if'. 'If' the point is getting your money's worth from devoting a subjective percentage to individual components my vote is 70% speaker, 25% recordings and 5% to whatever is left over.

My current setup: 95% "whatever is left over" - amps, preamp, subs, DAC/streamer, Qobuz, CD player, cables. 5% speakers.

What a cool hobby we have, where 2 people can work with polar-opposite formulas and both end up with systems that they enjoy.

[Freo-1]

A few years back I did a DAC shootout with some audio friends.  The DAC's were a $500 IFI tube DAC, Bryston BDA1, Ultra, Chord Hugo, W4S DSDse with the Femto clock upgrade and an Exogal Comet.  The results were eye opening with each DAC sounding very different.  The Comet and Bryston sounded the best.  The IFI was mifi sounding.

I have several newer DAC's in house and they all sound different.  Emotiva Big Ego, Schiitt Modi 3, Luxman DA-06, Chord Qutest, AVA SL Ultra II with upgrades and a built in DAC in a $6K Cary Integrated.   They all sound different and as you go up in price the sound improves dramatically with the older $5K Luxman still sounding the best and the Qutest coming in second but it has the most detail.

I have heard many other expensive DAC's and even had them in my system and they all sounded different.

What further complicates the matter is that I own several different USB cables and they all sound different and they sound different with different DAC's which is a real head scratcher.

The Chord Qutest really gets to another level when the M-Scaler is connected to it.  I wish the M-Scaler would provide the 705KHz/768khz to all DACs,  those only work with Chord DACs.   I use the M-Scaler with both the Chord Hugo-TT2 and a Devialet Expert Pro 250.  The M-Scaler improves any DAC I've tried with it. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

The Chord Qutest really gets to another level when the M-Scaler is connected to it.  I wish the M-Scaler would provide the 705KHz/768khz to all DACs,  those only work with Chord DACs.   I use the M-Scaler with both the Chord Hugo-TT2 and a Devialet Expert Pro 250.  The M-Scaler improves any DAC I've tried with it.

A power supply upgrade really takes the Qutest to another level.   We tried a Teradak LPS and an ifi PowerX and both significantly improved the sound.  It was like a veil was lifter with an increase in clarity and detail.  The Teradak is slightly better than the PowerX but it is splitting hairs.  Currently using the PowerX and the Teradak with a Regen.