[I.Greyhound Fan]

The differences are small. I was perfectly happy with a used for $250 Adcom DAC until I got Magnepan 20.7 speakers.
I trid a $3K DAC and returned it. Finally my Dealer suggested a Marantz 7K CD player. I now use that as my DAC. it is only slightly better than the $250 DAC, but enoughbetter I threw $7,000 at it. Most people could not hear any difference.
My two cents.
Both are with a lot of power conditioning expensive cables and cords.

If  that Marantz is only slightly better than a $250 DAC then you need to audition more DAC's and try a few different usb cables if you are using usb.

I owned a Marantz NA11s1 DAC that had the best tone and texture that I have ever heard.  I also owned a Cary TS200 and AVA Sl Ultra DAC and have had the PS Audio Direct Stream in my system along with the Exogal Comet Plus, W4S DSDse, Hugo Chord and Schiit Yggy.  They all sounded remarkably different. I settled on my Luxman for its warm, smooth sound with a little bit of bass bloom. 

Also, the music player makes a huge difference.  JRiver is mediocre sounding, HQP is excellent as is Audirvana.  Roon with HQP is the way to go though.  Hysolid is a free program that sounds very good, more detail and clarity vs Jriver.  A good music server or computer built for audio also improves sound.  I went from a high end laptop to a custom computer that I built and it was significantly better sounding than the laptop.

[whell]

I wonder how much Amir's ASR website is influencing this discussion. I hear a number of folks parroting the talk track that DAC's that measure well will sound great, and variances in sound quality MUST be due to poor a poorly measuring DAC. It's an interesting perspective since Amir doesn't listen to the gear that he reviews. 

I've got 2 DAC's that are well respected and measure well. They both sound a teeny bit different.  So, yeah, DAC's matter.

[Freo-1]

I wonder how much Amir's ASR website is influencing this discussion. I hear a number of folks parroting the talk track that DAC's that measure well will sound great, and variances in sound quality MUST be due to poor a poorly measuring DAC. It's an interesting perspective since Amir doesn't listen to the gear that he reviews. 

I've got 2 DAC's that are well respected and measure well. They both sound a teeny bit different.  So, yeah, DAC's matter.

ASR measurements don't mean much when it comes to DACS.   Their measurements don't identify how the filtering impacts what is actually heard.  They treat DACs like it's an amplifier. 


To provide insight regarding DAC design and implementation,  watch the Rob Watts DAC Design Master Class video on YouTube. 

[Bingenito]

Come on guys you know that the device with the best SINAD is wins! Absolutely BS btw. Tried a topping pre90 and returned it. You can design a feedback circuit and get great signal to noise rating but sound like a bleached turd.

Now the Topping wasnt bad, just sounded like a $500 preamp not The Giant Killer of the Innerweb

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Come on guys you know that the device with the best SINAD is wins! Absolutely BS btw. Tried a topping pre90 and returned it. You can design a feedback circuit and get great signal to noise rating but sound like a bleached turd.

Now the Topping wasnt bad, just sounded like a $500 preamp not The Giant Killer of the Innerweb

Exactly!

 Most cheap gear that is supposed to be a giant killer does not live up to the hype.  Can they sound good, yes but it depends upon your standards or definition of good.  And put that cheap piece of gear with a higher end system and you will reveal its weaknesses.

[Mag]

  I cannot tell you at what price point a dac is better than another. However with the dac's that I have used I have elevated mp3 downloads to a high fidelity recording by upscaling the recording multiple times. I also piggy-back two dac's together. The important thing though is the output is better than the input if only marginal. By upscaling multiple times I've achieved almost as good as what I believe are Master recordings. I also believe that I could even elevate a Master recording by upscaling with a dac multiple times.

You can doubt my claim but I have the proof. I can compare my upscaled dac recording to the mp3 download. I promise you, you would not know the elevated recording was a mp3 download.

[firedog]

Come on guys you know that the device with the best SINAD is wins! Absolutely BS btw. Tried a topping pre90 and returned it. You can design a feedback circuit and get great signal to noise rating but sound like a bleached turd.

Now the Topping wasnt bad, just sounded like a $500 preamp not The Giant Killer of the Innerweb

On the other hand, Kal Rubinson at Stereophile reviewed the Topping, loved it, and basically said it sounded as good as a $17K Pass Labs pre.
Taste is taste.
Possibly your "blanched turd" is true accuracy and you simply don't like it. That's fine, and even if true, I'm not saying that as a criticism.
We listen to the output of our systems. You should listen to what you like.

[Bingenito]

Maybe I should start another thread called... "Reviewers are full of it?" On a serious note not trying to rock any boats but listening to some reviewers, how their rooms are setup and their financial motivation or bias seems like a flawed approach.

Listening to the gear yourself in your system is the only way to really know for sure. Second to that some forums where people are really honest and do comparisons is a helpful data point. That said we all have to realize that if you just sold a piece of gear how likely are you to really go onto a forum and disclose how bad that you thought it was?

Since I own a Pass XP22 and demod the Pre90 I can say that the Pass isn't colored (prior Denafrips Athena was but sounded great), just sounds like a HiFi piece and the other sounded like what it was. Since I am music lover and couldn't care less about the gear itself I would have been more than happy to save several $k and reduce the gear size in my room. That was the actual objective.

Back to DACs since I started this thread and it seems to be going strong (Shocking)... Also tested the Topping DX3 Pro + in a desktop solution and it did a fine job for its price point paired with some Adam monitors.

[lokie]

I agree that it doesn't matter for most DAC's, especially ones that are doing a lot of processing through algorithms. To me, your just listening to different of algorithm's. 

The NOS DAC's like Audio Note, SW1X, etc.. don't do much to the digital signal and spend their efforts on the analog side. And that's where I hear a difference. They are expensive but Redbooks CD's and  streaming isn't. If you do some math it's a bargain.

[Tyson]

People that don't hear differences in DACS most likely don't have highly resolving speakers.  When you get true high end gear (like the Spatial speakers), it's a double edged sword.  First, it's great because you hear way more information from the recording itself.  On the downside, you also now can easily hear differences between DACs, preamps, amps and cables. 

[S Clark]

I'm curious.  Who are the "people that say DACs do not matter"?  Is this something the measurement guys came up with?  It's sort of like saying that all styli, cantilevers, and cartridges all vibrate at he same hertz as the record, so they all create the same signal. 
It's dumb.  I've never read anyone on this forum that proposes that DACs don't matter.  And the other places, I don't waste my time on. 

[whell]

I'm curious.  Who are the "people that say DACs do not matter"?  Is this something the measurement guys came up with? 

Yes, I believe so.  More specifically, a DAC that measures well is all that matters, and there should be no audible difference between DACs that measure well. 

To each their own...

[Freo-1]

Yes, I believe so.  More specifically, a DAC that measures well is all that matters, and there should be no audible difference between DACs that measure well. 

To each their own...

The standard set of measurements provided for DACs are inadequate.  They don't provide insight as to the filtering employed , especially with custom filtering and upscaling approach used by manufacturers such as Chord, Devialet, dCS,  etc. 


Rob Watts from Chord explains in detail the issues with DAC design in the following link:


https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/rmaf17-dac-design-masterclass-rob-watts-chord.6225/

[rbbert]

John Atkinson at Stereophile has far more experience (and undoubtedly a better ear) at measuring DACs than the folks at ASR.  More to the point he exhibits curiosity about correlations (or lack of such) between measurements and sound quality, and has commented (initially a few years ago) on how DACs that measure similarly (and excellently, with the measurements used) sound different.

Again, FWIW...

[mav52]

DAC's and how they sound,. well personal taste and the synergy with the other equipment including speakers or headphones people are using. I don't listen to measurements I listen to music and that matters as well. .

[jjss49]

dacs sound no more or less different than amplifiers, preamplifiers, phono stages, cables... whether one will hear the difference, substantial, subtle or non existent, is entirely situation and person dependent

the fun of this hobby, for those who choose to engage in it, it to decide for yourself - how much difference, if any, and then, just as importantly, does paying for x increment of difference/improvement make sense?  - once again, entirely person and situation dependent

reading other peoples comments and experiences, watching youtube videos, etc etc, while useful, only gets you so far, and does not substitute for personal effort and trial - trouble with trying to figure this out with second and third hand sources is that sometimes it is hard to know the credibility and motivations of those who are broadcasting such info...

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I agree that it doesn't matter for most DAC's, especially ones that are doing a lot of processing through algorithms. To me, your just listening to different of algorithm's. 

The NOS DAC's like Audio Note, SW1X, etc.. don't do much to the digital signal and spend their efforts on the analog side. And that's where I hear a difference. They are expensive but Redbooks CD's and  streaming isn't. If you do some math it's a bargain.

True but it is more than that.  It is the parts used, the circuitry and implementation as well as the tuning of the designer.  Having built a Pass B1 preamp and buffer and swapping out different capacitors and resistors, the sound changes and the change can be dramatic.

Just look at the Musical Paradise DAC's where you can easily swap out capacitors to change the sound.

[Letitroll98]

For those claiming that price is the difference stop on over to the Cheap and Cheerful circle and peruse the More DACs for Peanuts thread.  There are multiple inexpensive DACs mentioned which all sound different.  I've owned and listened to numerous DACs at all price categories and can confirm that DACs sound different, it's a settled issue.  The more important question is do very expensive DACs universally sounds better than inexpensive DACs, IME not always.  I heard one of the early dCS products and was gobsmacked, a Chord product, can't recall which one, was delightful.  However with some other products at $2,000 and up my reaction was less enthusiastic, nice, but nothing groundbreaking and not better than the cheaper priced spread at my house.  So as with all things audio, it depends.

[mav52]

True but it is more than that.  It is the parts used, the circuitry and implementation as well as the tuning of the designer. Having built a Pass B1 preamp and buffer and swapping out different capacitors and resistors, the sound changes and the change can be dramatic.

Just look at the Musical Paradise DAC's where you can easily swap out capacitors to change the sound.

Correct in so many ways.   

[I.Greyhound Fan]

If I could I would invite everyone to my house who does not think that there is a difference in sound between DAC's and improvement in sound as you go up in price I would.  My system is so revealing of changes in DAC's and USB cables.