Help selecting 2k preowned Tower Speakers Giant Killer Cate

doug s. · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 07:39 pm »

Quote from: byteme

Quote from: doug s.
i almost forgot another speaker - the one i am presently using - coincident victory's. these are really excellent, top to bottom. rated down to 36hz, they should be fine in the room size yure gonna use. hard for me to judge their bass in my present ~16x24 room, cuz i am using 'em w/subs. but, they may bust yer budget - expect to pay ~$2.5k for a used pair. only issue w/these is the tweeter is wery directional in the wertical plane - best for seated listening.

doug s.

However, panned by Srajan @ 6moons who raved about the Lor's...

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/coincident/victory.html

yes, i'm familiar w/that article. but, i would only come away w/the judgment that these speakers weren't appealing to srajan; a close reading of the rewiew does *not* indicate he "panned" them, imo. which is why you need to audition for yourself!

i do not find the victory's even the least bit lean, which was srajan's complaint. even w/the subs off, in my fairly-decent sized present room. (of course, they *do* sound better w/subs - but all speakers do, imo.) amps i have used w/the victory's include melos mat180's, (180wpc triode), audio mirror 6c33c set's (40wpc set), wave 8's (8wpc, push-pull), & sharp ex-111 (20wpc digital s/s). all have worked great. (the fact that the cheap sharp amp holds up well w/its cheap-moderate-expensive tubed counterparts is still amazing to me.)

doug s.

byteme · « **Reply #21 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 08:10 pm »

OK, maybe not a "pan" but he did refer to them a bit more harshly in the Odyssey review which is the only reason I found the Victory review anyway!

The main thing to take away from that in my mind is, if he likes the Lors and he likes other speakers which have a similar sound and DIDN'T like the Victories I'd say then the Victories have a different sonic character and if you normally align with Srajan in his reviews then you'd probably not care for the victories.

carusoracer · « **Reply #22 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 09:23 pm »

Thanks for all the replies. It seems that there are some great people out there to share their positive experiences.

I did see the Oydessy review mainly because I check the SixMoons site often.
Someone did post that the VS VR4jr is almost 3k preowned. I did not see that they were going for that much

I will still try and audition them.
I wish Oydessy was somewhere in the Midwestern US. I would like to listen as I'm not often traveling to the Southwestern States.
Anyother ideas welcome.

I get my EE Modded MiniMax back for Morningstar this week...so after the long burn in I will try the demo again.

BTW I did listen to the B&W's that are in this range and the Nautilus. Do these take a while to break in. I found the Midrange to be excellent but they were very forward and Digital sounding through the all Classe' rig

Marbles · « **Reply #23 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 09:25 pm »

Quote from: carusoracer

I wish Oydessy was somewhere in the Midwestern US. I would like to listen as I'm not often traveling to the Southwestern States.
Anyother ideas welcome.
..

Odyssey is based in Indianapolis, IN and they have a forum here....

Where are you located?

carusoracer · « **Reply #24 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 10:14 pm »

I'm located in Central Ohio...Whom could I contact for a demo?

Marbles · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 10:25 pm »

Quote from: carusoracer

I'm located in Central Ohio...Whom could I contact for a demo?

Call Klaus @ 317-299-5578 after 12:00 Indiana time. He is now at the Montreal Show and you should have no problem getting him....

jackman · « **Reply #26 on:** 2 Apr 2005, 10:28 pm »

BESL (http://Bamberglab.com) is also located in Indy. You could hit both places in one trip! Phil is a great guy who designs all of his own stuff. He's an electrical and mechanical engeneer and a real music lover. His home system is one of the best I have ever heard. It consists of a Series 5 and Threshold Class A amplification with Threshold preamp.

It's a trip worth taking. Good luck.

J

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Apr 2005, 02:54 am »

Quote from: zybar

If the criteria is around $2K used, why are people suggesting the VR4jr's?

While a very good speaker, I haven't seen a used pair anywhere near the $2K price point.

A quick glance on Audiogon shows the following prices:

$2950
$2850

If my memory serves me correctly, that is pretty much what they historically go for.

George

Geoge,

Carlman · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Apr 2005, 03:08 am »

Quote from: carusoracer

BTW I did listen to the B&W's that are in this range and the Nautilus. Do these take a while to break in...

Some of the best sounding speakers I remember as I started into hifi were B&W's speakers from the 80's... l especially liked certain models and I can't remember them exactly at the moment. I'll find out if anyone cares.

I've found that there is no speaker B&W makes today that can compare with their older stuff. Any of the new speakers I've heard have a difficult time blending the highs and mids. They always sound like they're confused... It sounds like they were going for 'air' and went too far... and got something else.

The CDMNT1's sounded better to me than the Nautilus 805 last time I listened critically.

So, this is a long way to say I don't think they'll ever break in..

Music Maven · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Apr 2005, 06:42 am »

Personally I don't like B&W's rather "anti-consumer" policies, and with so many brands out there, who needs their static? Yes, if at all possible, it is "best" to patronize your local dealer, but it IS possible that for one reason or another you might not get along with the local folks. I don't think a company should DICTATE that you MUST use the dealer of THEIR choosing with YOUR money! Just my opinion...

Jerry

fredgarvin · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Apr 2005, 12:44 am »

from my view, (or listening), I would recommend VMPS or the Vschwiekerts. I am using RM1's and they whip just about everything I have heard within certain financial limits. Either of those makes would be an improvement over those NHT's or Paradigms, B&W etc. Haven't heard the Lorelies though! I am lusting after RM30's...

Captain Humble · « **Reply #31 on:** 5 Apr 2005, 02:13 pm »

As a former Lorelei owner, I agree with byteme & jackman's assement of these fine speakers.

In the course of our search for a center channel that mated well with the Loreleis, byteme discovered Usher. He bought the Usher center and advised me to do the same. I did.

Having run my Loreleis side by side with the Usher 6 Series, specifically the CP-6311's (MSRP $2,100) and the CP-6381's I highly recommend placing the 6311's on your short list.

Incredible soundstage, imaging, musicality and emotional involvement.
Smooth, rich, detailed highs and mids.

The following review of the CP-6311's takes a minute to load but the read is worth the wait.

http://www.usheraudio.com/news/issue6_hispeed.pdf

I checked with Stan and the closest dealer to you is just outside of Detroit.
He did offer to send you a pair of 6311's to demo if you'd like to try them.

Some Links:

Stan's website
http://www.theehighend.com/

Stan's Phone:
214-704-6082

Email:
stan@usherusa.net

Stereo Times Mini Review - One of the Best Sounds At Show:
http://www.stereotimes.com/CES%202004%20Part%204.shtm

Best of luck with your search.

Jeff

carusoracer · « **Reply #32 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 06:32 pm »

I was able to attend a private audition of the VS vr4jrs

Very nice speaker. The issue I had was with the proximity to the rear walls for the best imaging and spacing for the Rear Firing Ambience Driver. Can any elaborate on exactly what this is supposed to achieve.
I did find out what the end result is but not entirely sure if liked the coloration in the high end?

Also available to listen to was the Totem Forest, VS vr2,Soliliquy(not sure the model name, and Inductance Technologies? Speakers, and a small Pathos.

I need to go back because I was so enamored with the capabilities of the VS vr4's that I did not critically listen to Totem or the others.

I believe that the VS will reveal what ever sound that you put into them...I thought they where a little to bright on some Redbook but nice. I did find out that the Rear Driver was turned all the way to the Max position. Turning it down did help. Also the bass was nice and it did go low on some tracks,but the real issue was I would like to hear a little more Bass. The speaker did not have any lead shot...

I still want to demo the Usher and the Oydessy. But I'm concerned over using a 2 way speaker to reach all the lows. Maybe asking too much of the drivers, of which I know to be Top Notch.

BTW the I could take my pick of gear to audtion through. Tubes or SS very High End Moon,Marantz,ASL,Edge,Chang,MIT,Acoustic Zen,etc

Carlman · « **Reply #33 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 07:11 pm »

If you can't demo any Usher's, maybe you can get a good deal on ebay.. There's a guy selling new (older models) fairly often:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZernied

I don't know him or his reputation... just noticed what appear to be good deals... buyer beware as usual on ebay.

I like the VR4's also but I do like the Usher's bass better. I like the VR4's midrange better than the Usher's, though. So, I got the Usher's I have modified to have superlative midrange while still producing good bass..

Talk to Bill at Response about a statement modified pair of 6311's.... or the 6381's on ebay... something like those might be right up your alley.

-Carl

byteme · « **Reply #34 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 07:20 pm »

Quote

I still want to demo the Usher and the Oydessy. But I'm concerned over using a 2 way speaker to reach all the lows. Maybe asking too much of the drivers, of which I know to be Top Notch.

With your room size you should have no issues with bass with the Lorelei's. It improves and tightens up with more juice, but there is plenty of activity down there!

hometheaterdoc · « **Reply #35 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 08:15 pm »

EDITED to try and remove any semblence of promotion of products I represent but still provide specific evidence I have measured myself.

Quote from: byteme

With your room size you should have no issues with bass with the Lorelei's. It improves and tightens up with more juice, but there is plenty of activity down there!

It's a Scanspeak 8545. Having owned several Proac models using these drivers, and having designed and built at least 15 different speakers models for customers with those drivers (which involved hundreds of test boxes and box tuning iterations - Transmission line, bass reflex, folded horn, sealed, etc.) I'm intimately familiar with what the 8545 can and can not do. It's a freakin' two way ported box speaker. It's a great little driver but you can't just sprinkle magic pixie dust over it and make it extend to 12Hz at 145dB. I love the driver. Otherwise I wouldn't have built as many different speakers as I have with it. It gives a nice full, punchy bottom end.

Please note: I am in no way, shape or form trying to make a negative statement about Klaus's speakers. I am sure they are absolutely wonderful. I am very familiar with the drivers he is using and I really, really like them in any of the designs I've done over the years. The only reason I bring it up is you ignored the comment by the user:

Quote

but the real issue was I would like to hear a little more Bass.

VR-4jrs in my 16 X 23 demo room are flat at 20Hz and 3dB down at 16Hz. A couple minor peaks in one channel. Otherwise, they are incredibly flat in their response.... As far as bass goes, the VR-4jrs have tons, albeit in an accurate, flat way. The Ushers and the Scanspeak driver when implemented as such, can sound punchier, but in no way, shape or form extend as low as the VR-4jrs.... it's not even close...

If VR-4jrs are not enough in the bass department, exploration of subwoofers, or something that DOES have some peaks around 60Hz are in order. The original poster is right.... a simple two-way speaker is likely NOT going to be enough for his tastes if he thinks the 4jrs don't have enough bass...

byteme · « **Reply #36 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 08:51 pm »

Quote

Dude.... seriously knock it off with the Lorelei bass thing. It's a Scanspeak 8545.

Dude...NICE!

I'm not the only one who has commented on the fact that they are surprising FOR A TWO WAY SPEAKER with a 7" driver...

"Having clear expectations about the bass hiding in them thar grooves, it didn't take pointy adjustable ears like those fancy Lorelei footer cones above to realize that the quoted 32Hz extension was rather conservative. Yes, conservative. While not moving the same amount of air as the twin 10-inchers of my horns, the sheer extension and muscular demeanor 'down there' -- they're knees on that cover, you know? -- was quite a shock. You probably get 25Hz at minus 5 or 6dB. Wowie.

This means that for all but the largest rooms, the Lorelei will serve full-range duty. This made the coincident presence of the new TBI Magellan VI-su subwoofers currently in for review a mere high-brow curiosity. I never once felt even remotely tempted to strap them into the system. It would have been ludicrous overkill. Srajan Ebaen "

I'm trying to help a guy who is in a very similar position to where I was last year.

What I'm not trying to do is shit on a speaker I don't carry and promote two that I do carry.

hometheaterdoc · « **Reply #37 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 09:41 pm »

Quote from: byteme

Dude...NICE!

I'm not the only one who has commented on the fact that they are surprising FOR A TWO WAY SPEAKER with a 7" driver...

"Having clear expectations about the bass hiding in them thar grooves, it didn't take pointy adjustable ears like those fancy Lorelei footer cones above to realize that the quoted 32Hz extension was rather conservative. Yes, conservative. While not moving the same amount of air as the twin 10-inchers of my horns, the sheer extension and muscular demeanor 'down ther ...

Once again, read what the person wrote. He said the VR-4jr didn't have enough bass for him. Srajan didn't quote any specific measurements (you got any to prove the 32Hz spec is conservative?), nor does he reference room interactions that the lorelei placement could have helped or been hindered by. If the 4jrs didn't have enough bass, the Lorelei's likely wouldn't cut the mustard either.

I did not in any way shit on Klaus's product. Your reading comprehension is severly lacking if you think I did. I purposely went out of my way to NOT do that. I was only focused on the point that someone who thinks vr-4jrs don't have enough bass surely isn't going to think the loreleis are the solution to his dilemma.... if he's looking for a punchier kind of bass maybe... but I'm not going to put words in his mouth....

I'm trying to help a guy period. He doesn't live in Raleigh, NC. So I can't and won't sell him Von Schweikert products because they are local sales only as per my dealer agreement. I also re-assured any concern that might arise with products being dumped at exceptional prices on ebay from the US Usher distributor... last time I checked, I don't make any money when another business sells a product I have absolutely no involvement with.... I'm not trying to sell him anything and could care less if he bought Von Schweikert, Usher, Proac, Totem, Odyssey, GR Research, Dali, or whatever. I'm just taking exception with your blind fanboy recommendations without listening to what the guy actually had to say.... It's entirely up to him if he wants to seek out a demo of lorelei's and it would be great if he did to see if his thoughts echoed your opinion.

Edited to remove opinionated comment at the beginning and appease a certain someone

byteme · « **Reply #38 on:** 7 Apr 2005, 10:32 pm »

Quote

I'm just taking exception with your blind fanboy recommendations without listening to what the guy actually had to say....

Lovely.

So since I am just a "fanboy" with no resume to speak of when it comes to speaker building I'll defer to your expertise.

I'll continue to seek your posts for furthur council.

Jesus Fvck - simply try to help a guy out who's in the same f'ing position I've been in by offering an opinion on something and then I've got to take one in the ass from you because of it?!?

James Romeyn · « **Reply #39 on:** 15 Apr 2005, 04:53 am »

Consider the VMPS RM1 or VMPS 626R. Both are considered (more so the 626R) by highly experienced audiophiles to be premium values. Both can be upgraded like crazy. The RM1 has depreciated more because it was discontinued at least two years ago. Enjoy your search. Sounds like you got more recommendations than you bargained for!