[carusoracer]

New to the forum. I'm looking for alternatives to my current speakers. Giant Killer Category

The criteria is that they are nice looking for WAF, like to have good clean tight low end bass yet can go deep, prefer 88dB and up efficiency,nice mid's with extended high's...and the big soundstage  All this at 2K Preowned...2 Channel.

 I'm looking at the Von Schweikert VR2's, VR4 jr, Gallo ref 3...open to suggestions.
 I have a 18x 15 Great Room,not the best acoustics, Wall to Wall Carpeting.
I really like a warm yet detailed sound with emotion,with Airy High End.
Musical Tastes: Jazz,New Age,Bossa Nova,Reggae,some Classical. Guitars and Horns

2 Channel only System:
             Musical Fidelity SS A3cr Power Amplifier
             Signal Cable IC and Power Cord
             Eastern Electric MiniMax PreAmp NOS tubes
             Herbies Halo's
             Music Hall Maverick SACD Player
             Venhaus Pulsar IC, Signal Cable Digital PC
             NHT ST4 Speakers
             PS Audio Extreme Prelude Speaker Cables

Thanks

[doug s.]

shameless plug!    buy mine:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?spkrfull&1116768564

doug s.

[jackman]

Hi,
These don't qualify as "Towers" because they are technically monitors on top of matching subwoofer stands, but they sure look like towers and they sound as good (okay, better) than anything I've heard in their price range.  They do everything I want a speaker to do: pinpoint imaging, transparency, huge soundstage, relatively high efficiency (89db), very deep articulate bass, etc.  The series 2MTM's just sound right to me and are an incredible value.  

They are available without crossovers for around your price point.  The crossover duties are handled by the DCX2496 which is available for around $260, pre-programmed by BESL to work for these speakers.  It's basically a plug and play operation.  You can also experiment with the DCX to come up with new crossover parameters and use the EQ function to provide custom in-room response.  Or...you can just leave it as-is and enjoy the sound.  I programmed different curves (very simple operation) and saved them for comparison (BBC dip, bass-heavy "club" setting, etc.).  The DCX is pretty much menu driven and easy to play with.  

You will need a 6 channel amp to make these work, but they sound great with an inexpensive amp like the Outlaw 7100 or the ATI 6 channel 1506 or 1806.  I was playing mine with an Outlaw with very good results.  

There are several reasons (aside from their excellent sound, innovative design and value) to consider BESL's versus large floorstanding towers:

1.  They are modular and easy to move around for positioning and move to different locations in your house.  Each cabinet is relatively light (versus floorstanders).  
2.  They have bass output to 20hz.  With bass cabinets isolated from the mids and highs
3.  They can be shipped via regular UPS and Fedex with normal sized boxes if you decide to sell them some day.  Large boxes are difficult and expensive to ship.  Plus, large narrow cabinets are easier to break (IMO) than midsized monitors and bases.  

If you are in the Chicago area and want to hear the BESL Series 2 MTM's, just give me an email.  I'm still getting the system set up (new amps, etc.) and haven't even installed the floor spikes but they are sounding very good.  

I'll post a full review and actual pictures in about a week.

[Carlman]

I think the VR4 Jr's fit your description best.  You can't go wrong with that pair of speakers... If you buy used, you won't lose money.. They're in demand, most people like them, some love them.... but I haven't heard anyone dislike them.  (but I'm sure they're out there)

You can get speakers that are arguably better in various areas but to me, the VR4's get the most right for the money.

[byteme]

With all due respect to the above speakers (since I haven't heard them) I find it hard to believe that they'd outshine the Lorelei's by any strech.  Odyssey's Lorelei's fit your bill, if you can find them 2nd hand.  Lovely to look at, floorstanders, plenty of bass, huge soundstage, emotion, palpability, detial, dynamics, it's all there!  Wonderful off axis sound as well, they fill the whole house and draw you to the music.



Reviews can be found at www.audioreview.com or here - http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/odyssey/lorelei.html

I've had mine over a year now and am one happy camper.  My system isn't dissimilar from yours, SS amplification, tubed preamp.  Our room sizes are similar as are our musical preferences.

[Carlman]

I wish there was someone local with the Odyssey line... I've heard a slew of other speakers... and the Odyssey just stays on my list of speakers I'd like to hear...

[byteme]

I wish there was someone local with the Odyssey line... I've heard a slew of other speakers... and the Odyssey just stays on my list of speakers I'd like to hear...

I got lucky when I was trying to finalize my decision.  Much like carusoracer, I was looking for floorstander with all the traits he listed.  I considered everything and read every review for anything that was close to what I wanted.  I called dealers, manufacturers, etc.  I was set to go with Talyo 7U's when by chance I was in Dallas on business.  Capt. Humble invited me over to hear and see his Lorelei's.  It was all over!  As we sat and talked I kept getting distracted by how gorgoues the sound was.  I was sold!  There must be someone in NC that Klaus has sold a pair too that would let you in their house!  

[jackman]

Hi Byteme and Carl,

Both of your suggestions are very good and deserve a listen.  I have heard the VR4's and was very impressed.  I'm a big fan of VS speakers including their inexpensive VR1's and the old VR4's.  They are very well designed speakers and they tend to hold their value over time.  I also believe Klaus does a great job and offers a real value to his customers.  He's got to have some of the most loyal customer in all of audio.  Although I haven't heard the Lorelei's, I am impressed by their buid quality and component quality, and I've seen and heard some of the other speakers from Odyssey and was impressed with their sound and value.  

I'm hoping to have a get-together in the Chicago area this spring or early summer, before my wife has the baby in July.  I'll invite all of my friends from AC who would like to attend.  I'm really liking the sound of my new Series 2MTM's and hope to get a good sized gathering together while I can still play loud music!  The Series 2MTM's with subs are flat to 20hz and the speakers are amazingly dynamic.  These speakers do more things right and less things wrong, IMO, than any speakers I have tried in my system.  I hope you have a chance to hear them someday.  

The advice to this gentleman is good.  Try to find someone in your area who will give you a demo or go to a local stereo shop and bring a bunch of CD's.  There are several highly regarded speakers that I could not live with because they don't sound right to me.  Like everything in audio, specifications don't tell the story, you really should try to hear them for yourself.  

Best of luck!

J

[Occam]

You could probably pick of a pair of Alon Vs for that price, in rosewood no less. I've been happily listening to my lesser IVs for well over a decade. The Vs are pretty much full range, image and stage like a champ, don't require that head in a vise to provide a wide and deep soundstage and IMO great tonality and resolution.

If you get a chance you should really give them a listen. No one should buy any speakers by relying on others opinions.

[jcoat007]

With all due respect to the above speakers (since I haven't heard them) I find it hard to believe that they'd outshine the Lorelei's by any strech.  Odyssey's Lorelei's fit your bill, if you can find them 2nd hand.  Lovely to look at, floorstanders, plenty of bass, huge soundstage, emotion, palpability, detial, dynamics, it's all there!  Wonderful off axis sound as well, they fill the whole house and draw you to the music.

Reviews can be  ...

I second everything that byteme said about the Loreleis.  I've had mine for a couple of weeks and could not be happier.  They just pour out the music and I still can't believe the bass that comes out of these.  

Here's mine with grills:

[jackman]

I second everything that byteme said about the Loreleis.  I've had mine for a couple of weeks and could not be happier.  They just pour out the music and I still can't believe the bass that comes out of these.  

Here's mine with grills:

quote]

You have a very classy looking setup.  That cabinet is also really nice.  It matches your speakers (or vice versa) perfectly.  

What is that center channel?  Is that a DIY job?

[doug s.]

all this gushing about the lorelei makes me think about captain humble here, who loved his lorelei's - yet he traded them in on some usher 6381's.  which makes me echo occam's opinion - you should really use these recommendations as an audition list.  unless, of course, ya yust wanna buy my vmps rm-40 kit which is surely better than any of these, even if ya never heard 'em!  

doug s.

[byteme]

True about the Capt. and his Lorelei's.  He did end up going Usher after a couple in home auditions (the Usher importer is in Dallas as well).  Capt. has a helluva room to fill, VERY big, I'd estimate maybe 25 x 25 with openings on all four sides if memory serves.  He also had an armouir about 50% bigger than jcoats between the two speakers.  Even with a sub that he had they had a helluva time loading that room with the amount of bass he wanted.  He ended up going with the Ushers since there were more and bigger drivers in them in order to load the room.  I am paraphrasing from our prior discussions, but that was the crux of his switch.

There are a zillion speakers out there for a reason, everyone has their preferences and even after hearing the Lor's at Capt's place I was still uneasy about how they'd sound in my room.  I'm happy to say it's better than what I remember!!  In home or in someone elses home is always best for an audition.

[lonewolfny42]

The criteria is that they are nice looking for WAF, like to have good clean tight low end bass yet can go deep, prefer 88dB and up efficiency,nice mid's with extended high's...and the big soundstage

The VR4jr's would fit the bill. Excellent finish, strong bass, nice mids and highs. Others have mentioned some very good speakers as well (Odyssey, Usher, BESL). Try to listen to a few...your ears are the final choice. [/list:u]
Here's a link to a NY Audio Rave at tvyankee's. He owns a pair of VR4jr's......

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=12244 . [/list:u]

[jcoat007]

You have a very classy looking setup.  That cabinet is also really nice.  It matches your speakers (or vice versa) perfectly.  

What is that center channel?  Is that a DIY job?

The CC is a RAD Micro that is filling in until Klaus gets my Nemesis done, which will also match the Loreleis and armoire.  He's also building me a sub to match.  ONE of my considerations in this setup was WAF.  Unlike my other system, this room is used by my wife and the kids.  The fact that Klaus was willing to match the furniture was a consideration in my decision to go with it.  

Having said that, I am extremely happy with the sound.  This system just sounds amazing.  I use it for HT and 2 channel and could not be happier.  

I have heard the VR-4jr's and they are great speakers.  I have not heard the Ushers, but have heard great things about them.  You do need to listen to as many speakers as possible to see what you like.  

BTW - My Loreleis are in a room that is 24 x 18 and has three openings into other rooms.  There is no problem filling the space and the bass is simply amazing.  I do not even have a sub anymore and so far I do not miss it.

[zybar]

If the criteria is around $2K used, why are people suggesting the VR4jr's?

While a very good speaker, I haven't seen a used pair anywhere near the $2K price point.

A quick glance on Audiogon shows the following prices:

$2950
$2850

If my memory serves me correctly, that is pretty much what they historically go for.

George

[sica]

Just want to point out the pic of the Besl speaker in Jackman's post is the Series 5 with sub, not the series 2
Jackman, if the Series 2 are that good, the Series 5 must be incredible!

[doug s.]

i almost forgot another speaker - the one i am presently using - coincident victory's.  these are really excellent, top to bottom.  rated down to 36hz, they should be fine in the room size yure gonna use.  hard for me to judge their bass in my present ~16x24 room, cuz i am using 'em w/subs.  but, they may bust yer budget - expect to pay ~$2.5k for a used pair.  only issue w/these is the tweeter is wery directional in the wertical plane - best for seated listening.




doug s.

[byteme]

i almost forgot another speaker - the one i am presently using - coincident victory's.  these are really excellent, top to bottom.  rated down to 36hz, they should be fine in the room size yure gonna use.  hard for me to judge their bass in my present ~16x24 room, cuz i am using 'em w/subs.  but, they may bust yer budget - expect to pay ~$2.5k for a used pair.  only issue w/these is the tweeter is wery directional in the wertical plane - best for seated listening.

doug s.

However, panned by Srajan @ 6moons who raved about the Lor's...

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/coincident/victory.html

[jackman]

Just want to point out the pic of the Besl speaker in Jackman's post is the Series 5 with sub, not the series 2
Jackman, if the Series 2 are that good, the Series 5 must be incredible!

Excellent point, those are the Series 5MTM's in the picture I posted.  The subwoofer base is the same for the Series 2's but the monitor in the 2's uses a proprietary Seas treated paper cone (with same cast frame as Excel line) with aluminum phase plug, and a Seas Excel tweeter, not the Millinium used in the Series 5.

Believe it or not, the 2's and the 5's sound very similar.  The 5's probably have a bit more detail and transparency but I really love the 2's for my music listening.  The just sound right to me.  

After owning the BESL Series 2MTM's with subwoofer modules, I don't think I would ever want to own a 2-way MT floorstander or monitor.  There is no way a single  6 or 8 inch midwoofer driver could possibly come close to the full range output and compression-free, dynamic sound of the BESL speakers with integrated subwoofer stands.  I'm not joking, these speakers can play the deepest tracks at unbelievably high spl level with virtually no (or at least very little) visible driver excursion.  

I was trying to bottom out the woofers yesterday on purpose with some bass-heavy tracks from Sade's "Lover's Rock".  That CD has some of the deepest bass I have heard on a popular recording and has been known to give speakers nightmares.  My wife was screaming for me to turn it down (from the other side of the house in an upstairs bedroom) when I hit three quarters volume on a particularly heavy bass track.  You could fry an egg on the 70lb Aragon 4004 that I was using to drive the subs, but the subs barely broke a sweat!  Even at extremely high spl levels, there was no strain or sign of compression.  That would not be possible if the mids were required to play deep bass, as they are in 2-way monitors or floorstanders.