[Scott586]

I am considering a purchase for the Philharmonic BMR Monitor.  I noticed a current ad for a preowned set of Salk BMR Monitors.  The Salk BMR has the drivers vertical alignment moved medially, while the Philharmonic BMR Monitor has the drivers aligned dead center of the cabinet.  Does anyone have info regarding the difference?  Did Salk take design liberties away from the original to improve imagining?  I am leaning towards the original Philharmonic version based on price.  I assume the primary difference in pricing vs the Salk is directly related to Salk's exquisite cabinetry.  Any thoughts on the slightly different designs?  Are there any other differences I haven't noticed?

[minatophase3]

I used to own the Philharmonic BMR's, great speakers.  I believe the only difference is the cabinet quality and finish options.  A while back Dennis quit making the BMR's but there was still quit a bit of demand for them so he had Jim Salk offer them.  Now I believe Dennis is back to making them as well as a floor standing model.  Sound wise I am 99% sure the Salk and Philharmonic BMR will be the same. 

[charmerci]

Yes, you are paying extra for the Salk cabinetry. Dennis doesn't feel like having the tweeters off center makes any difference. Present Philharmonics are centered and have a very wide dispersion pattern.

[Rocket]

Hello,

At some point it looks like the woofer was changed from a Scan-Speak 18W8545-1 Paper-carbon cone woofer to a ceramic SB Acoustics 6-inch woofer.  There appears to be a difference in bass response as Dennis' website indicates that it is now 36hz and Salk indicates it is 34hz.

As this is Jim's circle I'd say go for his speaker. Both Jim and Dennis are excellent to deal with.

Good luck with your decision.

Cheers Rod

[jsalk]

A little background...

When Dennis designed the original BMR monitors, he used a pre-built cabinet from Parts Express.  But they were only available in three finishes.  Some of his customers wanted different finishes.  So he would send those orders to us for the cabinets.  If the customer was on the East Coast, we would ship the empty cabinets to Dennis.  If they were in any other part of the country, that didn't make sense.  So we would complete and ship the speakers directly to the customer.  Most were aware that we were involved, but I'm sure there were some customers who had no idea who built the speakers.

When Dennis was out with some medical issues, he was worried about all the orders that he could not build while in the hospital.  I told him not to worry about it.  I told him we would complete all of his outstanding orders so he could concentrate on getting better.  We then added the BMR Monitors to our web site so his customers would know we were legit.  The bottom line is that we have built BMR Monitors from the very beginning and continue to do so today.  Of course, our cabinets are not made in Asia.  So they are more expensive.

The drivers in the original BMR were offset for diffraction control.  Although this was considered a "best practice," in reality the differences in response are basically inaudible.  And it is easier to manufacture speakers with in-line drivers as you only need one set of templates and there is no possibility of ending up with two left or two right speakers.  So when Dennis re-designed the BMR Monitors to use the new ceramic woofers, the cabinets were designed with the drivers in line.

While the original played 2Hz deeper, this is not something that the average person would notice if playing them side-by-side.  And the new woofer had a smoother upper end response.  This should not be surprising in that the ceramic driver is a more modern design vs. the 8545 which is at least 20 years old by now.

The BMR's that Dennis offers are built in bulk in Asia.  So the price is lower.  We still build them because some customers prefer a finish other than the one Dennis offers.

So it really doesn't matter where you purchase them, they are the same speaker.  The only difference is the cabinet build.

- Jim

[DMurphy]

That pretty much says it.  Offset drivers were thought to be best practice back in the day.  The idea was that diffraction peaks and dips to one side of the speaker would be different than to the other side, and would tend to offset each other in the overall room response.  I don't think there were ever any blind, controlled tests to see whether the theory actually made any audible improvement.  I never heard any between the old BMR's and the new in-line--they sounded the same, perhaps because the drivers were so smooth off axis to begin with. Today, following the research of Floyd Toole and others, the design goal is even off-axis response to either side of the speaker.  That's tricky and requires very careful selection of drivers and crossover points, or resorting to a wave guide for the tweeter (which has problems of its own), but at least the designer can tell whether that' objective has been met by performing the proper off-axis measurements.  With offset drivers, you never know what you've got off axis, because the response to one side will never be the same as the response to the other side.  My current Affordable Accuracy monitor uses a very old-school Parts Express cabinet with offset tweeters, and I went crazy trying to optimize its response.  A $100,000 Klippel machine will tell you, but so far I'm about $99,000 short of acquiring one. 

[WGH]

A $100,000 Klippel machine will tell you, but so far I'm about $99,000 short of acquiring one.

I think your knowledge and ears are a lot better than a $100,000 machine. 

I very rarely go to ASR but remembered something posted about the BMR Monitor and a Klippel

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/philharmonic-bmr-speaker-review.14781/

[nc42acc]

Audio Circle should crowdfund or gofundyou a Klippel.

That pretty much says it.  Offset drivers were thought to be best practice back in the day.  The idea was that diffraction peaks and dips to one side of the speaker would be different than to the other side, and would tend to offset each other in the overall room response.  I don't think there were ever any blind, controlled tests to see whether the theory actually made any audible improvement.  I never heard any between the old BMR's and the new in-line--they sounded the same, perhaps because the drivers were so smooth off axis to begin with. Today, following the research of Floyd Toole and others, the design goal is even off-axis response to either side of the speaker.  That's tricky and requires very careful selection of drivers and crossover points, or resorting to a wave guide for the tweeter (which has problems of its own), but at least the designer can tell whether that' objective has been met by performing the proper off-axis measurements.  With offset drivers, you never know what you've got off axis, because the response to one side will never be the same as the response to the other side.  My current Affordable Accuracy monitor uses a very old-school Parts Express cabinet with offset tweeters, and I went crazy trying to optimize its response.  A $100,000 Klippel machine will tell you, but so far I'm about $99,000 short of acquiring one.

[jsalk]

Audio Circle should crowdfund or gofundyou a Klippel.

I'd like one too!

- Jim

[nc42acc]

No problem Jim, you deserve one as well.

I'd like one too!

- Jim

[jtwrace]

I'd like one too!

- Jim

The good news is that you can send any speaker to Erin at Erin's Audio Corner to measure for free. 

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/

[poseidonsvoice]

The good news is that you can send any speaker to Erin at Erin's Audio Corner to measure for free. 

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/

+100.

Actually you should crowd fund/go fund the shipping. That would help in and of itself. But like Jason alludes, it's terribly important to have good honest data and that the klippel will show especially with Erin at the helm.

Best,
Anand.

[nc42acc]

Anand we need a Klippel in NC. Are you in?

+100.

Actually you should crowd fund/go fund the shipping. That would help in and of itself. But like Jason alludes, it's terribly important to have good honest data and that the klippel will show especially with Erin at the helm.

Best,
Anand.

[DMurphy]

Group Buy!

[Scott586]

Thanks for explaining the driver alignment question.  I am really interested in a speaker implementing the RAAL tweeter, and have been stalking the used market for a pair of curved cabinet BMR monitors.  Failing that, I may just go whole-hog on a gorgeous pair of Jim Salk's many offerings.

[charmerci]

Thanks for explaining the driver alignment question.  I am really interested in a speaker implementing the RAAL tweeter, and have been stalking the used market for a pair of curved cabinet BMR monitors.  Failing that, I may just go whole-hog on a gorgeous pair of Jim Salk's many offerings.

Your best bet is to go on the Philharmonic thread in avsforum. The fanboys there are passionate and may even find a pair for you.