[guest1632]

We have plan to go after high, mid and even low end products as we are vertically integrated with technology than can scale from IC to high power systems. But that will take time.

High end system is expensive because audiophiles demand a lot. The electronics are cheap but we have to invest in a lot of R&D. Every slight change in design and EVEN manufacturing or components selection affect the sound quality. Even a lose or lower quality connector increase the distortion. It is not realistic to expect that ...

Hi Jason,  

Well, the $500 to $1500 tough price point. That's why I suggested the stereo version. With the stereo version, you're probably talking about $800 to $900 depending on case and supply. I figure once you have your preampt out, then you can figure out how to scale back to meet the pricepoint. All I was saying is it would give you more capital bread and butter to work with.

Rick is a pretty smart guy, and if any of his ideas are night and day differences, well, then you ought to use them, if he's willing to do so.

Other than the interference issue, is there any difference in sound with or without the choke in the output?

Ray

[nuforce]

Since THD is lowered by 0.01% overall with the choke installed, a few people might be able to tell that it sounded better. Casey, our in-house audiophile said it sounded smoother all around (less harsh at high-freq), but the improvement is too subtle. Oh, it won't get worst that's for sure.
For those adventurous DIY people, you can remove the choke, strip out the copper wire, and re-route your favrite internal speaker wires around the core to form an integrated common mode choke with the speaker wires. Litz wire around the core works best. This is not meant for the amature and unless you know what you're doing, don't try it. We don't want to fix it for you . You have to make sure that you wind the speaker wires around the core EXACTLY like the common mode choke. If you mess it up, you either cross the polarity of the terminals, make the wrong number of turns, or wrong winding. And it will probably sound horrible.
So, don't go mess up a good thing  

[Mr. High Fy]

Hi.

Denmarks calling.

I AM STUNNED BY NUFORCE. One of the best sounding amps, i had ever heard!!! Lots of attack, sweetness, and the SIZE of the soundstage is just unbelieveble!!!!!

See you in the new audio world of Class-N

[WerTicus]

i told you

wait till it breaks in!

also get a proper power cord!!

[Doc Jr 8156]

Congrats Mr. High Fy.  Let us spread the word.  Godspeed.

[Mr. High Fy]

Congrats Mr. High Fy.  Let us spread the word.  Godspeed.

Word up  

[loose]

I've been lurking, following this thread with interest since its beginning.  On the basis of the raves about the NuForce monos, I sampled a pair over a week, along with a Bel Canto EVo200.2.  

I wanted to believe, good folks, believe me - I did!  Who wouldn't want the sort of magical results folk like Werticus and co keep insisting, over and over and over again, that the NuForce's deliver at a bargain basement price?  

Well, initially, influenced by all the hype, I was impressed, but as time went by I began to sober up and really LISTEN, not through my expectations, not through the hyperbole, but through my ears, critically, objectively.  The bass is not bad at all, but I began to notice that the NFs exaggerate percussion, that the hi frequencies are bright and cheap, that the imagery was wide but somehow blurred compared with higher-end amps, that many of my CDs that are not recent and not brilliantly produced were, well, just plain boring with the NFs.  And for volume freaks - leave the NFs well alone.  Every time I tried to pump up the volume for some serious rockin', they ran out of grunt way too soon, and the sound became blary and unpleasant.  These are NOT hard rock speakers, and I state that categorically.

I have to say, now that the fog has cleared, I do not think there is any comparison between the Bel Canto and the NF monos - the Bel Canto is way superior...that is, if clean, accurate musical sound that doesn't go to pieces under decent volume is what you're after (although the BC doesn't take a lot of pushing without showing some strain, either).  And as for all this nonsense about the NFs killing high-end amps 10x the price - gimme a break!  I had an extensive direct comparison listening between the BC and a 15K Krell, and the Krell won without question, especially at volume.  Don't ask me for specs on the Krell, or model numbers - I don't know.  It was at a friend's place, and since the Krell is way out of my price range, I didn't bother to take notes.  I only know what I heard.

Now, if the Krell cut the excellent BC back to size, and the BC is inferior to the later Gen11 BCs, as I believe is the case, and the BC EVo200.2 walked all over the NFs, then my conclusion from this very small database of amps is that the NF does NOT qualify as the giant killer that some earnest folk here are trying to convince themselves it is.  Sadly, exactly as I suspected.

Don't get me wrong - I thought the NFs were reasonable enough, and good value (not exceptional) for the price, but the earth did NOT move for me and I think we have here yet another example of audiophile-mania...so many so-called audiophiles are on a constant quest in search of the hifi holy grail, and when they think they've stumbled on to something special before the masses catch on, the whole matter becomes an issue of self-esteem, which colours perception and fuels delusion/illusion.  Hence the constant harping from folk like werticus about how good the NFs are.  

There was no doubt after the first 3 or 4 such posts as to how this good chap felt about his new toys - one wonders what explanation other than the one I have just postulated would adequately account for the next 15 - 20 almost identical posts from the same source?  We got the point after the first couple!  Noteworthy, also, that the raves about the 70w NFs were as over the top and indiscriminate as the subsequent ones about the 100watters - so why make the decision to change up to the 100W NFs when the 70watters were already at the upper levels of hifi nirvana?  

I sometimes wonder whether some of these audiophile ravers would pick the difference between widely variant componentry in a blindfold test...ditto between "burnt in" NFs and others straight out of the box, and between the 75 and 100 watters.  So much of this stuff is just taught observation (a bit like winetasting).  Nudge nudge - erm, how about listening to da MUSIC instead of talking da audio talk?  Or doesn't that count next to spec-speak?

Sorry - but ya can only take so many of these smug smileys (how I HATE smileys!) and affirmations/reaffirmations/re-reaffirmations that don't actually amount to anything but an unqualified outpouring of superlatives and a mantra of reminders that "I was 'ere first".

I am watching on keenly to see what sort of developments NF comes up with in the future.  I have absolutely nothing against this company, and wish them well - and I mean it.  Once they get it right - really right - I'll be singing their praises with the best of them, especially if they can keep the price down.  Until then, I'm saving for a Bel Canto eVo2i Gen 11.  That's as cheap as I've come across for genuine quality amplification (and unfortunately it's nearly 3x the price of the NF100s, though well under the likes of the Krell I mentioned earlier).

Don't suppose this post will make me any new buddies, but I would have exploded if I'd suffered through any more smileys and superlatives without speaking my piece!

[loose]

edited

[loose]

"These are NOT hard rock speakers, and I state that categorically." - I meant that the NF monoblocks are not hard rock amps - dunno where "speakers" came from.   Apologies!

[brj]

Hi loose - welcome to AC!

A few questions that provide critical background for any review:

- Did you sample the amps in your own system, or one you were very familiar with?

- What other components were in the chain (including cabling)?

- How well was the room treated?

- What kind of music were you using to audition?[/list:u]
Thanks!

[WerTicus]

I stand by what I said:
 the nuforce amps are better than the belcanto's

they make the belcanto sound slow.

the upper registers are much the same.

I felt the same as you did loose when I FIRST head the amp... I thought - 'no way is this nuforce as god as the bel canto'

later, after some a/b I realised the nuforce was actually a more accurate representation of the sound - a more 'live' sound than the belcanto.

Dont get me wrong I love the belcanto, and I could afford one of those too, money isnt an issue here for me.  I feel the nuforce is more interesting to listen to, and on my 89db speakers drives them far louder than I need.  I'm refering to the 70w's the 100ws I am yet to receive... I ordered them because the bass was warmer than the 70ws.

I reallly dont know where your getting this "bright and cheap" from with regards to the highs - I just cannot hear it like that at all.  And it would seem there are quiet a few people saying this of late, whenever someone has a fault to pick with these amps its always bright and cheap, makes me think something is wrong/ setup wrong/ mismatching your setup etc.

[mr_bill]

Loose,
Hats off to you for feeling that you can state your experience and your truth and the objective way you separated that from emotion.

[Jon L]

It's not surprising that some people are liking NF better than others b/c that's ALWAYS the case with any gear.  But let's put things in perspective.

NF 100 watters are legitimate contenders in say <$5000 amp market, and I can't think of another $1600 MSRP amp I'd rather own.  Forget about the giant-killer 10x price hyperbole, but credit is due to NF for an excellent design at reasonable cost that enriches our audio community.  A very musical and satisfying system can be assembled around these diminutive monoblocks for sure.  So what if Amp A or B sounds better to some people in some systems?  

BTW, Krell makes some excellent amps in recent years, some of the best SS amps really.  There's no shame in "losing" to the big Krells!

[Rocket]

Hi,

I was the person who initially started this thread because i wanted to inform audiophiles of a product which i believe was excellent value and a cheaper alternative to ridiculously priced high end products.

Loose,

I actually don't own a pair of nuforce amplifiers but may do so in the future.  I don't claim to have the best ears in the world but i have been into hifi for many years and have listened to a lot of high end systems over the years.  My experience is opposite to yours and perhaps the system you listened to wasn't up to the task.

The system i heard the nuforce 70 watt amp was the following:

Bel canto cdp
Bel Canto pre
Bel canto evo 2 gen 2 monoblocks
War audio reference 1's (using raven 1 ribbon tweeter, accuton midrange and cabasse bass driver in a floorstander box)
luminious speakre and ic cabling.

To my ears the nuforce is in the league of the evo 2 gen 2 monoblocks, i find when i listen to the bc amps after about 10 minutes i feel bored with the sound.  The top end is refined the midrange is very transparent and the bass is excellent definition, unfortunately it just doesn't grab my attention.  I have also extensively listened to the bel canto 200.2 over the years and i agree they don't sound as good as the evo gen 2 amps do.

The nuforce amps appear to do everything the bc evo gen 2 amps can do but i don't get bored after 10 minutes and i like the sound of the amps.

I respect your point of view and it was great that you provided your own personal opinions of the amp.  But i don't think your comments regarding Werticus were necessary .

You should have a read of the comments by Pat O'brien of war audio (on the nuforce site) regarding the nuforce amps.  He is also a dealer for the bel canto range of products and has nothing to gain from raving about the nuforce amps as it is in his best interest to sell more bc products.

Is every audiophile going to like the sound of the nuforce amp?  Probably not because many audiophiles have different sonic preferences and that is the best reason to actually hear these products in your own system and make up your own mind.

Regards

Rod

[Pat@war]

Ok I'm the guy behind WAR Audio. I'v been in Bussiness since 1990
I think I have some sort of experiance in Audio and always try to get products that could match the best in the bussiness without the MBS and
extreem cost. I try not to engage in discussion forums (read them when
have time)as there is lots of different opnions. Loose I guess You are
Ross I remember you listening to NF 75s when you played one of your
non audiophile rock recordings @war it never sounded over bright
in fact your comment was thats the best you have ever heard.
Also I may Point out to you and all Your friend also my friend Loyd
who said BC was crap and wrote a thread on Appogee site that
the BC was bright and thin six months later same amp second time listen with different f/end it's one of the best and he bought one.
so be carefull if you pop in I can demo the two camps BC/NF
I love the BC but if you want the best NF is superior in every respect
including the power delivery. Of course you have to have frontend thats capable of the same level.If you would have had the HALCRO DM68 in place of nuforce in yours or Loyds place results would have been the same
beleive me I have compared with the halcro in a system thats around
A$250,000.00 we have both agreed NF's are as good as HAlCROs
proof is in the pudding he did not hesitate to buy  a pair. another instant
I had Rob woodland from Eichmann technologys listen to NF in Queensland
he could not beleive how it trounce the setup we installed in all night all kept saying is what an amplifier this form A CARY 300b valve guy
SO loose before you make rash comments please take each situation
in it's own merrit. since then I have replace my IC with INDRA without
doubt these are the best IC i'v heard not heard Period. a$8000.00 PAIR
BLOODY ESPENSIVE BUT THATS LIFE
Best Regards
Pat

[loose]

Thanks for your responses, folks.  I appreciate it that no one saw fit to seriously flame me for having a different take on the NFs - although I do think there's some defensiveness in the replies of some of the NF apologists.  To be expected when people have their emotions and self-esteem caught up in their stated positions, as I believe could be the case in some instances.  On the other hand, different ears hear different things and one man's audio utopia might well be another's yawn.

I won't go into vast detail on my componentry, cables etc, as I know I have a respectable system that is well capable of showing up the qualities of quality amps - good and not so good.  eg: B&W CDM9NT speakers, quality Marantz CD player (can't recall model number, but it was around $800 and to my ears is excellent...many notches up on the run of the mill Sony it replaced).  So, not up there with the best, but pretty good gear and well sufficient for the purposes of comparing amps.  And yes, this is my system, I know it well, and the CDs I listened to covered a wide generic range, from hard rock to folky to classical to jazz and in between (rock is my love, though, and that's where I concentrated - 60s to current).  I found the NFs were good on quieter stuff with not too much happening at once, but fell down when the sound became denser and as I mentioned before, were simply weak with hard rock, actually quite unpleasant  and glarey at volume.

Re Werticus's comment: "I reallly dont know where your getting this "bright and cheap" from with regards to the highs - I just cannot hear it like that at all. And it would seem there are quiet a few people saying this of late, whenever someone has a fault to pick with these amps its always bright and cheap, makes me think something is wrong/ setup wrong/ mismatching your setup etc."

Firstly, I can tell you exactly where I'm getting this "bright and cheap" from - my own ears!  I have not seen anyone else making such comments (but if you say they are, I can only take some assurance from that - it's nice to know you're not alone), and I do not take my cue from industry "experts", dealers etc.  I can assure you there is nothing "wrong" with my system.  I am wondering, to be frank, whether you have projected your own way of drawing conclusions about equipment in this comment of yours, which implies that my opinion is secondhand or borrowed.  Not the case.

Now Werticus, exactly what do YOU mean by your claim that the NFs made the BCs sound "slow"?  I note that one of your constant superlatives re the NFs is that they are incredibly "fast".  It so happens that this same adjective is one that is bandied about on the earliest reviews of the NFs and that dealers inevitably use.  Coincidence, or, as I postulated previously, are you falling into the trap of regurgitating learned response?  

I know I am sounding harsh here, but I honestly believe that many audiophiles fall into this trap.  It's called truth by agreement and is the enemy of objectivity (goes right back to the flat earth days...those scientists of yore were not stupid, but this truism prevented them from "seeing" the truth until someone was prepared to speak to his own observations that calculations did not add up and be branded a heretic...in time, others "saw" and a new truth was born - again by agreement, but this time supported by real evidence).

There is no point in my restating my opinion that from my week of listening experience the BCs were tangibly and obviously superior to the NFs in producing good, accurate, clear, "musical" sound, and better keeping their dignity under volume pressure, then adding this or that observation to strengthen my argument.  Why?  Because I'm not interested in winning an argument!  

You're entitled to your opinion, Werticus, as is Rocket and others who are extolling the virtues they think they hear in the NFs.  To my ears, the superiority of the BCs is obvious - and this is my considered opinion after a week of comparisons on my own system at home, listening to a swag of music of varying styles I know well - so where do you go from there?  

I WANTED to love the NFs.  I DON'T WANT to spend 3 times more on the BCs.  However, above all, I want a quality system at an affordable price that does justice to the music I love, and at the moment, my experience is that the BC gets far closer to delivering what I want than the NFs.  Better clarity in a wide range of music, less colouration, equally good bass (neither amp is brilliant), smoother, better imagery, and all in all, simply better able to reproduce an authentic musical experience.  I just can't articulate it any better than that.

I am interested in Jason's (of NF) acknowledgement that they have areas they need to improve, and that they are committed to doing so.  I look forward to future models, because if NF can get it right at a good price, I'll be queueing up.  All I'm saying is that they haven't got it right yet, and this is not being reflected in all the hyperbole that's being thrown about.  Always for me, listening is believing, and that's all I've based my comments on.  I don't talk the talk cos I don't know the language of hifi and it doesn't interest me to learn it.  This doesn't mean I don't have a good set of discriminating ears, though.  Neither does it mean I'm a babe in the hifi woods.  I've had an avid interest in sound equipment since the 70s, and have been through my share of chopping and changing.   I do not have the funds to get the best, but I know others who do and have hitched many a listening ride on their better listening vehicles.

That's sounding like I'm now defending myself and trying to establish my own cred - ah well, we're all slaves of ego.  The trick is to recognise it in its many deceptive guises!  But that is another story...

[Pat@war]

Loose you diid not directly reply to the points I made all amps have weaknesses otherwise there will be only one amp on the market.
as I said in my last thread it can't be at one instant it's the best you
have heard another thin and over bright all thats showing is the different
systems @ work One major issue with NF that is been looked at is
SMPS thats been used can put some hash back in to the systems with preamps less than perfect that could create what you experiancing @your place Power cable thats capable of ridding this hash is paramount. Werticus was of the same opnion as you are when he heard the NF as time and understanding
realised capability of NF also one thing NF has very wide bandwidth
so if there is hf hash it will amplfi.I took on NF not because it's cheap
but of it's Performance.
BR
Pat

[loose]

pat@war

I'm surprised at such a response, and a bit disappointed.  

I don't know why you would seek to personalise this debate.  I am not going to comment on my identity, whether I know you or your shop, or my other contacts - that's why we have nicknames isn't it? - but I would ask you not to go making the sorts of assumptions you have in your post.  And assumptions are all they are!  

That said, I have no way of commenting on your findings re the NFs and who thought what, front ends etc.  I can only speak my truth, and that's what I've done.  I can say, unconditionally, that I have never been impressed with what the NFs do to hard rock, even from my earliest auditioning.

Personalities and identities are not the issue here.  And neither, as far as I'm concerned, is trying to 'prove' one's status as a critic.  You may be a dealer with many years experience, but that does not invalidate the opinions of others, or elevate your opinion to "truth."  Not as far as I'm concerned, anyway.

[loose]

Re: " it can't be at one instant it's the best you
have heard another thin and over bright all thats showing is the different
systems @ work"

No, it can't and it's not!  You are confusing me with someone else.  Challenge me, by all means, but only on the real evidence - my words within this forum.

[Pat@war]

Losse you sounded to me like Ross in Perth if you not I appolagize
nevertherless I stand by what I said it all can be system depended
by the way where are you Aus or US
Br
Pat