[Redheart]

newzooreview, the harbeths are inspired greatly by the LS3 5a as most audio nerds know. Look at the cheesy and numerous crossover parts being used in those! Those are the supposedly golden Falcon version of it too!




The Ls3 5a have a great following nowadays for whatever reasons and its design is talked to death. The cabinets were lossy on purpose and designed that way for production costs and mass production reasoning, the crossover is designed around it. The same goes for the drivers, and the grills too! Those are mini monitors mass produced for the pros at the BBC.
It is well know as Danny mentioned as it is common knowledge. You can look it up.

Today, it’s just a bad design with too many parts, and the drivers are not optimized well for this design. And yes Danny is honest and just shared that they are not to be messed with and starting over is smarter. What is wrong with that! You can still enjoy that nostalgia but accept that there are better designs today.

Actually I am very thankful for this video as I was in the past interested in building a pair of DIY LS3 5a, but I was quite skeptical about the crossovers being used by all the big companies claiming big bucks for their kits. And using old drivers and thin lossy cabinet walls! I think I smelled the snake oil when they were asking stupidly amount of cash for special speaker grill cloths!

If you have the occasion, please just take a listen at any of Danny’s design, you would experience what he does and realize he is honest and a pretty darn good speaker designer too! I for one thank him every day that I am enjoying my NX studios, they are really unbelievable. I would be so sad if I would have build a pair of Falcon LS3 5a instead for more than double the price.

[sailor]

Danny, passing me on to Brian was fine, my grumble was the dismissive comment about the valve amp being responsible which I think you knew was not the problem, that and the lack of followup did not leave a good impression.

Regarding XO mods, I do the same. I was going to mention the LS3/5A which to me sounds dynamically constipated, just too many components needed to get a passable frequency response from old badly designed drivers. Trying to force a speaker to provide a flat response is folly, it will measure better but sound worse. Also, consider that this holy grail of flat, flat ,flat response is pointless when you measure the same speaker in a domestic room. The room's effect makes a farce out of the 'flatness'

It is amazing how something takes on an undeserved reputation for quality simply because it is popular and overpriced.

I follow much the same strategy by leaving the XO circuit unchanged if it measures OK and replace parts. On really old speakers with coils all jammed close together it's necessary to completely rebuild the XO on a bigger board to re-orientate and position the coils for minimum interference. If the owner of the speaker will tolerate an external XO then this is what I recommend but 'the wife' usually starts becoming noisy at this stage 

[Danny Richie]

Danny, passing me on to Brian was fine, my grumble was the dismissive comment about the valve amp being responsible which I think you knew was not the problem, that and the lack of followup did not leave a good impression.

Again, I can only apologize if anything I sad came off that way. We have had some issues with some tube amps having a really soft bottom end that is not well controlled and when using speaker level inputs that can get passed onto the servo subs and tend to limit the lower ranges. So I have to keep that problem in mind.

[subsonic1050]

Sailor - I can understand your frustration. Customer service is a big part of what separates decent companies from great companies. I will say that over the past year I've purchased and built 5 of the largest kits that GR Research offers. In that time I've spoken to Danny roughly 20 times or so. You can tell he's a busy man - sometimes he was in a hurry to get off the phone and other times you could tell he was less busy and chatted a little more. However, his customer service has always been top notch. Personally, I don't hold it against him if he doesn't want to sit on the phone and chat - he has a lot of other customers who are waiting for him to ship parts, upgrade speakers, etc. What counts is that when I've had a problem he has taken care of it.

Also, to a certain extent when you are building DIY stuff you're expected to figure things out a little bit on your own. These kits and upgrades are not for everyone - even if they would appreciate the sound and value. Some people don't want to take the time to learn how to perform some of these upgrades or build some of the kits - but that's part of the deal with DIY. I can understand your frustration after spending time and money to build speakers for a friend and then they aren't working properly - but you can't expect Danny to be able to diagnose the problem without being there and not being familiar with your equipment - and by your own admission the problem was not even with the speaker kits you built - but with the output from your amp. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't hold your situation against GR Research - if you have another need in the future give them another try - the stuff they produce is amazing if you're willing to put in the time to research, build, and troubleshoot your own stuff.

[newzooreview]

In the video under discussion, the benefit of putting the speaker grills in place is noted at the 10:25 mark: “…and it actually measured a little smoother with the grill on.”

The frequency response of the P3ESR measured with the grill on varies by 1.75 dB in the 4k – 10k range, from trough to peak. (Figure 1 below, screen-captured from the video with the red, grills-off frequency response removed).




Figure 1

Following the presentation of this smoother, grill-on frequency response, the video refers to the P3ESR

Being “a little lumpy there up top” — 10:39 mark
Having “peaks in the tweeter’s response” — 10:52 mark
And exhibiting “stored energy from that peak” — 11:23 mark

The video under discussion in this thread references the XLS-Bravo as one point of reference for comparison. In the company’s video “Introducing! The XLS-Bravo!” the frequency response is presented. (Figure 2 below, screen-captured from the video).




Figure 2.

The XLS-Bravo measurement varies by 1.75 dB in the 4k – 10k range, from trough to peak.

This frequency response is described as

“super smooth, one end to the other…looks phenomenal” — 3:35 mark

There is no discussion in this XLS-Bravo video of any lumpiness or peaks in the response.

The measurements are purely objective and speak for themselves. […] I just report what I find.

[newzooreview]

1:01 pm, 11 Nov 2021

…the companies whose products (speakers) are sent in to me are not our competitors. […] We are in and cater to the DIY market.

4:16pm, 11 Nov 2021

we are now…offering some of our small models assembled. And absolutely they are in a different league than the Harbeths that were sent over.

[Jason72]

In the video under discussion, the benefit of putting the speaker grills in place is noted at the 10:25 mark: “…and it actually measured a little smoother with the grill on.”

The frequency response of the P3ESR measured with the grill on varies by 1.75 dB in the 4k – 10k range, from trough to peak. (Figure 1 below, screen-captured from the video with the red, grills-off frequency response removed).




Figure 1

Following the presentation of this smoother, grill-on frequency response, the video refers to the P3ESR

Being “a little lumpy there up top” — 10:39 mark
Having “peaks in the tweeter’s response” — 10:52 mark
And exhibiting “stored energy from that peak” — 11:23 mark

The video under discussion in this thread references the XLS-Bravo as one point of reference for comparison. In the company’s video “Introducing! The XLS-Bravo!” the frequency response is presented. (Figure 2 below, screen-captured from the video).




Figure 2.

The XLS-Bravo measurement varies by 1.75 dB in the 4k – 10k range, from trough to peak.

This frequency response is described as

“super smooth, one end to the other…looks phenomenal” — 3:35 mark

There is no discussion in this XLS-Bravo video of any lumpiness or peaks in the response.

Dude. Let it go. You are trolling.
Technically, the P3ESR has more lumps you should count them 

[Tyson]

1:01 pm, 11 Nov 2021

4:16pm, 11 Nov 2021

As someone who's heard both speakers, well, Danny's right - the fully upgraded XLS is better than the stock Harbeth.  It's not that the Harbeth is bad, IMO, in fact I like it's voicing quite a bit.  But the XLS is a step up on soundstage, transparency and imaging, while still having excellent tonal qualities.  The Harbeth has excellent tone but falls a bit short in these other areas. 

[Cheytak.408]

Danny, passing me on to Brian was fine, my grumble was the dismissive comment about the valve amp being responsible which I think you knew was not the problem, that and the lack of followup did not leave a good impression.

As I follow this thread, I keep seeing things that are not congruent with the discussion. I have emphasized your statement concerning the issue of low subwoofer output. Then you posted this:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179007.msg1882167#msg1882167Which indentifies the problem:

"Forgot to mention that this took place about 8 or more years ago. The problem was the sub output on the Manley Stingray which had hardly any output."

So, tell me if I am missing something, but your own words state that he problem was with the amp.

I am confused.

[Chewbacca]

Honestly, to me, this is comical. Unfortunately Danny is the butt end of this of the joke...

First off Danny, your videos are phenomenal! Your tech talk Tuesday videos have provided me with more knowledge of speaker design and philosophy in a very easy to understand way, than 10 years previously of being a hobbyist audiophile. Don't let the naysayers bring you down! - Having them only means you're doing something right... which you absolutely are.

Also - to those who haven't received the absolute best service from GR, just have to give the guy a break. He's out of this world busy. I've talked to him I believe 4 times on the phone - the first time, I could tell... he was busy. He needed to get back to what he was doing. Understandable. Second time, I think I had a quick question, he answered it promptly, was great. Third time, I could tell he was more relaxed. I think we may have talked for 20 minutes, the last 10 shooting the breeze. GREAT guy! Also - he's been the one to answer the phone every time. Besides for Odyssey Audio (which is one guy... lol) I've never had another company where the owner picks up the phone every time (can't say he'll do that forever)... in addition to just helping you with speaker builds! Even if you're not using his stuff! He just give's his knowledge away free of charge!... and yet people make claims that he should publicly apologize? This guy is one of the few that's actually legitimately made the audiophile world a much better place!

newzooreview, dude. What's your condition? Seriously. Sorry you're in bed with Harbeth or something, and some of their price point/profit margin "flaws" have been exposed. In addition to all of your comments breaking down every little thing Danny says. You SERIOUSLY must be in politics. If not, you know your calling! Also - Pretty sure BuzzFeed is looking for some more reporters as well... My goodness. Title: DANNY RICHIE EXPOSED! - says Harbeth has a "bumpy" response, while his speaker is "super smooth, yet they're only slightly different"... lol okay dude, we have eyes and can read a chart.


Okay - Let's break this down. BUT in a totally different category that most can all relate to, and let's see how we feel about it:

Honda Civic: Normal everyday car. Engineered to the EXTREME! Engineered to hit a price point. Manufactured to hit a price point. People LOVE them! People HATE them! It is what it is when you buy it form the showroom. SO, SOME people like to just drive it as is. Reliable, efficient, bla bla. SOME people like to modify them. Headers, exhaust, intake, turbo, whatever you name it. There are also shops that will do this for you. They'll take anything you give them, evaluate exactly what is there to start for a baseline, suggest upgrades to achieve your goal. Maybe headers (inductors), intake (capacitors), brakes (resistors), or a whole new engine!... etc, you get the point. Do you go around and tell these shops that they should PUBLICALLY APPOLOGIZE to Honda because they're changing it? Of course not, everything has a price point, and to bash every company that takes something and makes it better in a capitalist society is literally insanity.

This is absolutely silly - Keep it up Danny!

[Tubefly]

Is it time to lock this thread?

[sailor]

@subsonic1050, I'm not too sure what you are saying but think it's well intentioned so thanks for that.

@ Cheytak, yes you are missing something and it appears you have a problem with reading comprehension. After the incident I did not ever contact Danny again and it was only these many years later that I saw him ask someone not to disrespect him. Well correctly or incorrectly I felt I had been disrespected and called him out on it. He replied appropriately and now that is that. I moved on long ago. It's over but you are keeping it alive, so back off.

   

[ServerAdmin]

Is it time to lock this thread?

Good idea.