[Tangram]

Too bad this thread is devolving into finger-pointing. It's an interesting topic.

[Danny Richie]

Wow, some of you guys are getting a little carried away here. Allow me (the presenter) to make some clarifications.

Some of the comments have a ridiculous nature, but I will respond anyway.

I find it odd too that three speakers were shown and weren't candidates for upgrades for different reasons, but everyone seems to focus only on the Harbeth.
 
First of all, regarding measuring with grills on or off. They were measured both ways and presented both ways. Which way they measured best was not relevant. They measured well and it was so stated. The measurements also have nothing to do with why that speaker was not a good candidate for improvements or an upgrade.
When a speaker measures well I typically don't elect to redesign the crossover for it. If parts quality is poor (like in this case) it is often a good choice to simply make upgrades in those areas, and despite what some people think, significant improvements can often be made in clarity, detail levels, resolution, imaging, etc by removing bottlenecks and allowing for a cleaner and less smeared signal to reach the drivers. Unfortunately, due to the complexity of the crossover, there is no way to replace those same parts with higher quality alternatives and still fit it all in that same space. Just some simple 16 gauge air core inductors would be hard to squeeze into that space.

On bloomy cabinets. It is well known that many of the British speaker companies use a lossy box to add a bloomy coloration to the sound. Some of you seem to think it was a sin for me to mention or acknowledge that. It's not. It is common knowledge that some cabinets are designed that way. The cabinet resonances don't show up in a spectral decay either. To really see them requires an accelerometer test on the side of the panels. You can see that issue in a measurements of some Harbeth speakers taken by John Adkinson of Stereophile.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/318harbeth.H302fig2.jpg

It is not too bad on the small speaker that I tested but it gets worst on the larger models.

Here is another one: https://www.stereophile.com/images/615HLS5fig2.jpg

So again, the lossy cabinet issue is WELL documented.

What is also really funny here is how bent out of shape people can get if they don't like the message.

"Multiple claims are made in the video without evidence presented"

Actually everything I said and every measurement posted was absolutely 100% exactly what I said it to be. The measurements are purely objective and speak for themselves. Actually looking at and showing what is inside is as true as it gets. All is there for all to see. I am not the designer or company that made the choices to use the least expensive budget level parts they can find. If you have a problem with that then take it up with Harbeth. Don't shoot the messenger.
And cries of an "endless negative marketing campaign" is totally ridiculous. I just report what I find. I praise where praise is due and don't sugar coat anything.

I must also point out that the companies whose products (speakers) are sent in to me are not our competitors. We are in a completely different market segment than all of those companies. We are in and cater to the DIY market. Offering upgrades is something we have been doing for over 20 years. The upgrades are fun for our customers, and are often an inexpensive way to improve the performance of their speakers and allow them to further their music appreciation and listening enjoyment. It also gets a lot of people to try DIY for the first time. So all of these upgrades have brought a LOT of new people into the hobby. That is the real motivating drive force in doing all of this. Those customers are often so happy that they come back to us again and again to try other products or kits that we offer.

Our customer base speaks for what we do (we have thousands of happy customers), and I make no apologies for what I do or say. If there is anyone here that needs to offer an apology it is the guy spouting off things like "cult leader", "sloppy mess", "devoid of integrity", and "cultish faith". There is no place here for that kind of offensive language. You can apologize and stay or take it somewhere else.

If anyone wants to debate something with me that's fine, but you won't be disrespectful.

[Tubefly]

 ^^^ +1

[DannyBadorine]

Wow, some of you guys are getting a little carried away here. Allow me (the presenter) to make some clarifications.

Some of the comments have a ridiculous nature, but I will respond anyway.

I find it odd too that three speakers were shown and weren't candidates for upgrades for different reasons, but everyone seems to focus only on the Harbeth.
 
First of all, regarding measuring with grills on or off. They were measured both ways and presented both ways. Which way they measured best was not relevant. They measured well and it was so stated. The measurements also have nothing to do with why that speaker was not a good candidate for improvements or an upgrade.
When a speaker measures well I typically don't elect to redesign the crossover for it. If parts quality is poor (like in this case) it is often a good choice to simply make upgrades in those areas, and despite what some people think, significant improvements can often be made in clarity, detail levels, resolution, imaging, etc by removing bottlenecks and allowing for a cleaner and less smeared signal to reach the drivers. Unfortunately, due to the complexity of the crossover, there is no way to replace those same parts with higher quality alternatives and still fit it all in that same space. Just some simple 16 gauge air core inductors would be hard to squeeze into that space.

On bloomy cabinets. It is well known that many of the British speaker companies use a lossy box to add a bloomy coloration to the sound. Some of you seem to think it was a sin for me to mention or acknowledge that. It's not. It is common knowledge that some cabinets are designed that way. The cabinet resonances don't show up in a spectral decay either. To really see them requires an accelerometer test on the side of the panels. You can see that issue in a measurements of some Harbeth speakers taken by John Adkinson of Stereophile.

https://www.stereophile.com/images/318harbeth.H302fig2.jpg

It is not too bad on the small speaker that I tested but it gets worst on the larger models.

Here is another one: https://www.stereophile.com/images/615HLS5fig2.jpg

So again, the lossy cabinet issue is WELL documented.

What is also really funny here is how bent out of shape people can get if they don't like the message.

Actually everything I said and every measurement posted was absolutely 100% exactly what I said it to be. The measurements are purely objective and speak for themselves. Actually looking at and showing what is inside is as true as it gets. All is there for all to see. I am not the designer or company that made the choices to use the least expensive budget level parts they can find. If you have a problem with that then take it up with Harbeth. Don't shoot the messenger.
And cries of an "endless negative marketing campaign" is totally ridiculous. I just report what I find. I praise where praise is due and don't sugar coat anything.

I must also point out that the companies whose products (speakers) are sent in to me are not our competitors. We are in a completely different market segment than all of those companies. We are in and cater to the DIY market. Offering upgrades is something we have been doing for over 20 years. The upgrades are fun for our customers, and are often an inexpensive way to improve the performance of their speakers and allow them to further their music appreciation and listening enjoyment. It also gets a lot of people to try DIY for the first time. So all of these upgrades have brought a LOT of new people into the hobby. That is the real motivating drive force in doing all of this. Those customers are often so happy that they come back to us again and again to try other products or kits that we offer.

Our customer base speaks for what we do (we have thousands of happy customers), and I make no apologies for what I do or say. If there is anyone here that needs to offer an apology it is the guy spouting off things like "cult leader", "sloppy mess", "devoid of integrity", and "cultish faith". There is no place here for that kind of offensive language. You can apologize and stay or take it somewhere else.

If anyone wants to debate something with me that's fine, but you won't be disrespectful.

Well said!!!

[jjss49]

We're not bashing Harbeth. There are cultural preferences to consider, as well. Harbeth supposedly has the classic "British sound" which means it's laid back with minimal bass.

Harbeth models designed for full range sound (Compact 7, SHL5+, Monitor 40) are not lacking in bass.  While many/most domestic speakers do not produce the lowest octave, and can usually benefit from judicious support from subwoofers, these speakers are designed for a balanced sound, top to bottom in room, properly set up.

[Early B.]

Harbeth models designed for full range sound (Compact 7, SHL5+, Monitor 40) are not lacking in bass.  While many/most domestic speakers do not produce the lowest octave, and can usually benefit from judicious support from subwoofers, these speakers are designed for a balanced sound, top to bottom in room, properly set up.

"Full range sound" is 20Hz - 20KHz. Monitors typically don't provide full range sound, regardless of who designed them. Nevertheless, my statement about minimal bass referred to the "British sound" in general, not Harbeth, in particular. But since you brought it up, it's interesting that Harbeth doesn't offer subwoofer options to mate with their monitors.

 

[Tyson]

The bottom line is that you either agree that parts quality makes a difference, or it doesn't.  If it does, then the crossover in a lot of commercial speakers can be improved quite a bit just with better parts. 

On the other hand, if you think that parts quality does not make a difference, then you won't see the value in what Danny's doing.  In my early days in the hobby I was more of a skeptic, but as I've gained direct experience by doing parts swaps myself, it's quite clear to me that parts quality does in fact matter.  It matters a lot. 

[Killian Smith]

  .

[newzooreview]

First of all, regarding measuring with grills on or off. They were measured both ways and presented both ways.

I've watched the video several times. Evidence and facts matter. Only the initial frequency response chart was presented with grills off and grills on. Even though the grills-on response is better (as noted in the video), the next chart, the "horizontal off axis" chart, shows the frequency response with the grills on and the comment is made "it's a little lumpy there up top." If off-axis response was measured with the grills on, which the video states improves the performance, then it would be good to see that version.

Likewise, the vertical off-axis chart, where again "peaks in the tweeter's response" are noted, is presented as measured with the grills off. There is no discussion of the grills-on measurement even though the noted "peaks in the tweeter's response" are critiqued and were already observed to be improved with the grills.

In the spectral decay plot, again, the video highlights "…stored energy there from that peak [presenter makes a peak with his hands for emphasis]." This "peak" or "peakiness" is repeatedly critiqued in the narrative for each chart relating to frequency (e.g., all but the impedance chart).

Five charts are presented that relate to frequency, and only one of those five charts is stated to be a grills-on measurement. 80% of the frequency related measurements show the grills-off measurement, and the critique about peakiness is repeated over and over again.

On bloomy cabinets. It is well known that many of the British speaker companies use a lossy box to add a bloomy coloration to the sound.

So again, the lossy cabinet issue is WELL documented.

This is doubling down on false information. What is "well documented," from Stereophile in fact, is that the P3ESR does not have "a lossy cabinet issue" that adds "a bloomy coloration to the sound."

Stereophile actually did the accelerometer measurements on the P3ESR disproving the sound coloration claim more than a decade ago. Stereophile concluded that "the strongest mode I could find was at a beneficially high 516Hz on the top panel" and "with regular music listening, I could not identify any coloration that might be due to this behavior."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-p3esr-loudspeaker-measurements

Here is the actual plot of the top panel accelerometer data published by Stereophile for the P3ESR. It looks significantly different than the links in the reply.



Apparently it is "really funny" that people get "bent out of shape" about such things like data and facts and accuracy.

I must also point out that the companies whose products (speakers) are sent in to me are not our competitors.

The company that produced the video has just launched a fully finished and built speaker, the XL-S Encore, that is a direct competitor to the P3ESR. The video, in the wrap up with the P3ESR sitting partly disassembled in the foreground states "…to the little XL-S Encore, we're jumping up in performance in big steps over this speaker [points to the P3ESR]."

I think the facts speak for themselves.

[Danny Richie]

newzooreview, why are you still carrying on about whether all measurements were taken with the grills on or off? Differences were slight and had no relevance.

The same goes for the comments about the cabinet types made by that company. It is not relevant. There are some resonances there. They aren't bad. It doesn't matter.

The issue with them was a complex network loaded with budget level parts, and a limited amount of space in the small speaker for placement of higher quality parts.

And we are now doing some experimenting with offering some of our small models assembled. They are being assembled in an other location. We'll see how it goes. So thanks for noticing. And absolutely they are in a different league than the Harbeths that were sent over. That is a fact.

[sailor]

On my say so and encouragement I convinced a very good friend to buy a pair of subs and a pair of the servo amps that go with the drivers. I built the sand filled boxes for him which sat empty for over a year while he saved up for the amps and drivers.

The components arrived and I carefully installed them, understandably my mate was, after spending what for him was a considerable amount of money and patiently waiting what seemed an interminable amount of time, almost shaking with anticipation.

I set the controls and switched on ... nothing! With the volume full up and my ear next to one of the subs I faintly heard some bass. It was so low as to be regarded as non-existent.

I emailed the supplier, one Mr. Danny Ritchie and explained the issue. He wanted to know what amp was being used. My reply by return email explained that my friend had a Manley Stingray amp. The reply back was, a very disinterested and dismissive " some tube amps don't produce much bass" I explained again that it was not a case of not hearing the very low bass but not hearing anything at all.

I was eventually fobbed off onto Brian Ding who was helpful and provided me with information on what resistor to change to increase sensitivity.

I did not unfortunately have the time to follow this up so I hooked the subs up to the Tape sockets which sit at line level. The subs and amps worked just fine and sounded, after some knob twiddling, really very good. No problem with the components but seriously disappointed with the apparent lack of concern by the seller.  I never ever received any follow up emails.

So here we have somebody with a great set of subs that do not scale with the Stingray's volume control. So turn the volume up then scrabble behind the back of these very heavy sand-filled boxes to adjust the subs output. 

I no longer live in South Africa but my friend and I remain in touch. As I designed and built his main speakers he trusts my opinion and is now considering adding 2 more subs to achieve a DBA . I will not be recommending the gentleman who did not have the decency to find out if we had resolved the problem. Talk about disrespectful 

[sailor]

Forgot to mention that this took place about 8 or more years ago. The problem was the sub output on the Manley Stingray which had hardly any output.

[77SunsetStrip]

Kudos to Danny for taking a courteous approach in response to the disrespectful, unprofessional, and unwarranted personal attacks from newzooreview.  It is clear from the first post by newzooreview there is no interest in reasonable or sincere respectful discussion, instead only perpetuation of a never ending attack on the character and knowledge of Danny.  It is time to stop wasting time responding to newzooreview. 

[Danny Richie]

Sailor, No disrespect intended. The servo amps are not our product. We resale them. So when the resolution is not obvious to me I have to defer to the designer of the amps. Sending you to Brian at Rythmik Audio is what we do in those circumstances.

[jjss49]

"Full range sound" is 20Hz - 20KHz. Monitors typically don't provide full range sound, regardless of who designed them. Nevertheless, my statement about minimal bass referred to the "British sound" in general, not Harbeth, in particular. But since you brought it up, it's interesting that Harbeth doesn't offer subwoofer options to mate with their monitors.

This seems needlessly argumentative.  I also don't know what Harbeth as a company not offering subwoofers for sale has to do with anything.   And I am not sure why is 'full range' is necessarily 20 hz to 20 khz?  What about kick drum fundamentals at 18 hz?  My point is that these definitions are subjective in their nature, and depends on one's perspective and use case.

As to Tyson's comment -- regarding parts quality, sure, parts can always be improved.  There is no end.  A cost no object Bugatti Veyron at $1.7 million has some parts on it that can still be improved... but should an owner of that car travel down that road?  What matters most is does the designed product do its job, do its job well enough to please customers who the pay money to own and use it.  Once again, in my opinion, the big picture should prevail.

That Danny Richie tries to improve parts of other successful speaker makers' internals is great, there is a certain market for that and he is trying to make a living doing it.  Best wishes to him.  The DIY segment of the market has its own appeal and is wonderful in its own right.  In his approach though, he necessarily defines shortcomings of established products (some with substantial followings) so that his approach generates demand.  Which is also fine, but this necessary approach may lead to some 'incoming fire', so to speak, for which I am sure he is prepared. 

Take Harbeths for instance, excellent speakers with pedigree and legions of pleased customers worldwide, been this way for decades.  Yes they are darned expensive but there are plenty of folks who buy them at the current prices and are pleased as pie.  I suppose a few might take a pair of $8000 SHL5+ XD's and start tearing into parts, internal wire etc etc. on Danny's suggestion.  But perhaps not too many I would guess.  I would think most buying Harbeths would like to have product that sounds as Alan Shaw intends for them to sound.

[DaveC113]

also, why so many components in that crossover?  Something is a miss in them that requires that many parts...

Actually, Harbeth xo's are some of the best I've ever experienced in some ways. While I do think parts quality could result in some improvements, Harbeth 40.2 do an AMAZING job of presenting complex music with excellent clarity and separation. At RMAF quite a few years ago the 40.2 were being used with Vinny Rossi LEO, I played some of my own demo tracks and the Harbeths were one of the best I've ever experienced reproducing a live Bela Fleck track that many systems turned into a huge mess, smearing parts together, distortion, etc. In fact the guy demo'ing NOLA speakers turned the track off and gave me a dirty look it sounded so bad. Same track sounded wonderful in the Vinni Rossi / Harbeth room. And it's mainly the crossovers that are responsible for it. IMO many speaker designers could learn a lot by studying Harbeth and the newest YG xo's.

[caryking]

Damn!!!  I started this thread and it was never intended to create a negative towards Danny!  My observation was towards the Harbeth, primarily because they are regarded fondly.  I found it very interesting that a speaker, at the cost, could use the parts they used.

Now, I have no idea how they sound, in fact, I’ve never heard any Harbeth speaker.  What I am astounded by is the quality of parts in such a revered speaker.

I do not own any GR Research products; however, I watch all of his videos and find them extremely interesting.  I am a big believer in improving the sound of every part in your music chain.  I will try a lot of crazy ideas just for the fun of doing it.  At the end of the day, the most important part of this hobby, is to enjoy music!!

[caryking]

Actually, Harbeth xo's are some of the best I've ever experienced in some ways. While I do think parts quality could result in some improvements, Harbeth 40.2 do an AMAZING job of presenting complex music with excellent clarity and separation. At RMAF quite a few years ago the 40.2 were being used with Vinny Rossi LEO, I played some of my own demo tracks and the Harbeths were one of the best I've ever experienced reproducing a live Bela Fleck track that many systems turned into a huge mess, smearing parts together, distortion, etc. In fact the guy demo'ing NOLA speakers turned the track off and gave me a dirty look it sounded so bad. Same track sounded wonderful in the Vinni Rossi / Harbeth room. And it's mainly the crossovers that are responsible for it. IMO many speaker designers could learn a lot by studying Harbeth and the newest YG xo's.

No offense...  I think your comparison is week at best.  I don’t believe you can go from one room, into another and assume that the speakers are making the difference in the Bela Fleck track.  Too many variables to come to that conclusion.

Now, you are getting close to accurately describing a comparison when you referenced the entire room.

[TKonrad.NOLA]

Audiophiles are the sole reason there aren't more audiophiles.

[Tom Bombadil]

Watched a few of Danny's videos.  It is indeed shocking to see such poor quality parts in expensive speakers.

Makes me glad that I got a quality crossover upgrade from my manufacturer many years ago.  All Hovland Musicap capacitors, Solen air core inductors, Eagle metal film resistors, and Analysis Plus 9AWG internal wiring.   So much better than some of the crap Danny finds.