[AKSA]

Folks,

I may be outa line here, but I thought this might interest the AKSA community because it raises many important issues:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17256&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

I would be interested to hear any comments good or bad, on the points raised.  The guy deserves a voice!!

Cheers,

Hugh

[lonewolfny42]

No debating this.....Some of the best money I ever spent (AKSA 100N+ owner) !!! And I've spent a lot.......

But don't take my word for it.....read what other's

have said.....[/list:u]

Chris[/list:u]

[andyr]

Folks,

I may be outa line here, but I thought this might interest the AKSA community because it raises many important issues:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17256&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

I would be interested to hear any comments good or bad, on the points raised.  The guy deserves a voice!!

Cheers,

Hugh

Hi, Hugh,

I clicked on the above link and read JLM's post ... and some others in that thread.  I'm not exackerly shure what you wanted us to comment on but I agree with Chris - I've never spent money better on hifi gear than on my AKSA power amps.

As to "how much power is needed" ... my full-range AKSA 55 powers a pair of 2-ways (advertised as being suitable for a 25w amp) perfectly well - and that's playing Pink Floyd in a large room at loud (but not party-level) volumes.

On my main system, my (active) Maggies sound wonderful with 25w on the (3 ohm) ribbon, 55w on the (4 ohm) mid-panel and 100w on the (4 ohm) base-panel.  However, it is certainly possibly they would sound "wonderfuller" with twice as much current delivery on the base panels.  It's just that I've never had the opportunity to try this out!

Regards,

Andy

[AKSA]

Andy,

Thanks for the response;  read pages 5 and 6 of the thread - in particular the criticisms of price, and my response.  I'm interested in objective, no bull**** comments on these factors as it's important marketing information.  This is an area I'm ALWAYS ready to take advice on, as you know........    

There are essentially two competing issues here;  either, that AKSA prices are perceived as being too expensive, or, that my marketing is not pitched high enough to create the necessary perception of value.

Of course, none of this is particularly relevant after the sale, but prior to the sale.  At this time perception is everything and suspicion is strongest, and one must cater to not just the seasoned audiophile who knows the market and has defined, informed expectations, but the newbie as well!

Aside - my 18 year old daughter recently acquired an I-Pod for her birthday.  For the last 24 hours she has locked up the PC converting 30 CDs to MP3 and downloading them onto her new toy.  I was astonished to see she has included 'Blonde on Blonde' in the compilation - one of my all time faves from my student years.......!!    

Here it is in my own home - digital technologies are destroying hifi as we know it!!    


Cheers,

Hugh

[aurelius]

Here it is in my own home - digital technologies are destroying hifi as we know it!!  

Only a temporary glitch in audio history Hugh... the interval between HDs being physically small enough and batteries sufficiently compact enough to play MP3 and the same technologies evolving sufficienly to support lossless formats...

Even an 18 year old daughter can discern good from barely adequate!

Three years ago I was converting my collection to MP3 to dump on my first gen. iPod.  (Handy but crap) Its only now becoming main stream... meanwhile, I've FLAC'd my entire collection this year and am waiting for an 80G FLAC player (e.g. the next RIO Karma)...

OK, maybe not Hi-Fi, but  certainly better than the MP3 option.

[Greg Erskine]

There are essentially two competing issues here;  either, that AKSA prices are perceived as being too expensive, or, that my marketing is not pitched high enough to create the necessary perception of value.

Hugh,

You have to sell your amps for the "right" price to maximise your income and hopefully still making a profit. This "price" will never be right for all comsumers, so don't worry abou them. If you drop the price $100 would you sell twice as many and make more profit? Could you raise the price $100 and still sell the same number? What the right price is, who knows.

Value for money? I believe the AKSAs are excellent value for money, but I own one or two. If I didn't own one, I would probably find it difficult to justify the cost. If I didn't have one, I'd probably be sitting here listening to one of my other amps and be very happy in ignorant bliss.

I initially found it a very difficult decision to buy my first AKSA 55 even at $250 when I could go to down the road and get a 100w amp for $100. Twice the power for a third of the price. Surprisingly, I found it really easy to buy my next Aspen components, a TLP N, 55 N+ and GK-1 for a considerable amount more than my initial purchase.  

During this same period, I have built other DIY amps and even bought a cheap commercial amp and ALL have re-inforced how good your products are.

I think pitching your products at enthusists who are willing to pay for excellence, rather than worrying about a product for all DIYers, is the way to go.

Good luck, and I hope you get some sleep tonight.  
Greg

[Rocket]

Hi Hugh,

I am happy with my aksa 100 amplifier and think the pricing is reasonable.  If you have diy experience and can build it yourself the cost of the amp is quite good, however if you have to pay for someone to build it does add up to be a lot of money.

My amp has cost in the vicinity of $2200 - 2300au.  If i could have built it myself it would have cost quite a bit cheaper.  Don't flame  me as i was asked to make a subjective comment.

Best wishes

Rod

[fajimr]

hugh,

as a prospective buyer of the ASKA, maybe I can provide some insights...  

First of all, I am NOT an MBA and do not look at this possible purchase as entirely a 'what is the best sound that I can get for the money' issue.  That said, being in education (i.e. the salary-to-number-of-degrees-on-the -wall- ratio is very low indeed)  price IS an issue.

But for me, and this is something that is very personal, what I also take into account is the product I am getting.  And when I say product I don't mean simply what is in the rack but, more importantly,  who/what is behind that product.  Sure I could get a nice Chinese amp that probably sounded pretty good, yet I wouldn't feel good supporting the factory in China which was chosen beacuse of the low wages it pays.  This is essentially the same reason I refuse to shop at Wal Mart.  

For me an important part of the equation is who I am supporting in the process.  Having spent some time in the 'Circle' and seeing how integrated Hugh is in the conversations as well as how highly he is regarded, makes me WANT to buy his product.  This community consists not only of the individuals within the community but the relations between those persons.  Hugh not only contributes by creating a product for us to enjoy but also a means for us to learn more about good music, a chance for us to engage deeper in this hobby/passion/quest.....

o.k. I fear I am beginning to ramble here... so the bottom line is that I don't see the AKSA amp being too expensive.  Yes, I will have to save for a while to buy it and that is o.k. with me.  The other option I am consdering is a Pathos integrated; one of the nicest production pieces I have seen- I appreciate the attention to design and sound as well as the price point.  

As I have said elsewhere, the main factor in my decision making process now is my own confidence in my ability to build the AKSA but I know there is a LOT of great support in this community and that I wouldn't be alone in the building process.

just my 0.02 (american, which means it loses value everyday)

[Carlman]

The AKSA is a kit that competes with production pieces.  A kit has its own niche of followers as does finished product.  So, when you compare an AKSA to a 'brand x' amp what are you comparing?  Is it good for a kit?  I have noticed that brand x is always assumed the benchmark when comparing to the AKSA.  

People who only buy finished products are likely not going to view the AKSA as a real possibility unless they're truly open-minded or not brand-conscience.  I find that to be a rare phenomenon.  Lonewolf is almost a 'lone' in this regard.  However, he found Hugh and together we built him an amp he really enjoys.

Perception of the amp and how much it cost really skews people's opinion.  What Hugh has to decide is what market he wants and go after it.  I can't begin to tell you how much 'easier said than done' that last statement was.  The decision and plan of a marketing strategy takes a lot of thought from clever minds.  

My 'guesses' are that if Hugh built a ready-made AKSA 55+/100+ and the fit and finish were in the same league as other high-end amps, he'd find a nice market for it.  He could setup distribution and start selling amps in a traditional way throughout the world.  However, is this what Hugh's about?  Or, is Hugh all about making kits and being a part of the support it takes to build an amp?  

This is the stuff I talk to small business owners about all the time... but generally in person.  Sometimes it takes talking to someone to have some lights go off about what it is you want to do... and what makes you happy... and therefore defines your goals.  Write it down when you have those moments.  Oh well, I digress... waiting on a phone call gives me too much free time...

-Carl

[Joules]

Hugh - Never ever ever compromise your quality.
It's to easy and to comon to cheepen a product to get the price down. You have a phenomenal product at an unbelievable price. If one would just look beyond the end of thier  nose and see this.
IMHO you are doing the right thing by offering several upgradable vertions and options at a range of price points to satisfy any reasnoble DIYer. AKSA stands for quality and value for the DIYer- it's not every ones cup of tea. The only thing I can suggest is to offer an assembeled price. And maybe collaborate with someone in the US to sell your products.  

I hope to be talking to you soon about a pair of full up AKSA's

[DSK]

There are a number of factors that confuse the issue of whether AKSA amps are good value for money or not. The AKSA is the proverbial 'fish out of water' ... it is a kit amp that (largely) doesn't compete with kit amps. Not many kit amps contain the parts quality or anywhere near the number of man hours spent critically evaluating and refining the AKSA amps. Although perhaps more high-end oriented kits are emerging now, traditionally kits have been intended to be 'good value for money' and 'good sound for the money' offerings for those who cannot afford the price tags attached to high-end amps and/or wish to have the fun and satisfaction that comes from building a kit.  

Instead, the AKSA competes (sonically) head-on with the high-end manufactured amps. But, it doesn't come with a pretty case or rave reviews from the glossy magazines. Aside from the recent US tour, it has also been difficult for those outside Melbourne to audition these amps. These factors make the growth of AKSA recognition a long and slow process, it has been somewhat of an underground movement.

As someone else mentioned above, the number of high-enders who have the required assembly skills and are willing to entertain the thought that a 'kit amp' could possibly sound as good as the high priced amp in their equipment rack, are few and far between. Without being able to thoroughly audition the AKSA amp in your own system, it therefore really does require a significant leap of faith. This is exactly where I sat a few years back until a new friend, Professor Eichmann (yes, the man behind the Bullet Plug) strongly suggested that I audition the AKSA kit gear.

Well, these days I run AKSA's GK-1 pre-amp and 100w Nirvana Plus amp and have never been so emotionally connected to the music. Previously I had auditioned and/or owned gear from Plinius, BAT, Electrocompaniet, Audible Illusions, Perreux, Bel Canto, Musical Fidelity, Arcam, Golden Tube audio, etc etc. Some of these were rated 'Class A' by Stereophile for those that care about such things. However, the AKSA components were simply more convincingly lifelike. Believe me, I didn't like hearing my boutique gear outperformed by the AKSA gear and it hurt to lose these brand names for that of a little known kitset manufacturer. But, sonically there was no choice.

I should disclose that since then I have come to know Hugh quite well, but back then I didn't know him from a bar of soap and was not pre-disposed to buying his gear ...in fact quite the opposite as I would have to find someone to build the AKSA gear (as I have no such skills) and had no respect for 'kit' gear.

I write this not as a testimonial for Hugh or AKSA (sorry, I know it sounds like one   ) but rather to highlight the fact that despite being kitset amps, the AKSA gear really does compete with true high-end gear. So, in evaluating whether the AKSA is good 'value for money' do we compare parts cost to kit cost (As you would with most kit amps) or compare the kit cost to the retail cost of offerings from well reputed high-end companies with Class A ratings but performance that is equalled or surpassed by the AKSA gear? Everyone has their own idea on this and I'm not sure there will be any conscensus.

To me, a simple 'parts cost' evaluation is flawed due to the hundreds/thousands of hours of development/assessment/refinement behind the kit, and the substantial support behind the product. Yet, the fact that you have to assemble the amp yourself (or pay to have it done) means a direct comparison to a boutique amp of equal sonic quality is also somewhat flawed. So, the best basis of evaluation I can see is to take the kit cost, add the building cost (if like me, you can't do it yourself) and extra parts (transformers, case etc) and then compare it to the prices of boutique amps of equal sonic quality. For me personally, this translates to the AKSA GK-1 and 100N+ being ridiculously good value for money.

PS. My comments/comparisons above are substantially re the N+ version. While the stock and Nirvana models are very good, the Nirvana Plus model is significantly better.

[stvnharr]

Hugh,
Isn't this all deja vu all over again!!!
All that's changed is the person's international city.

[AKSA]

Steven,

Yes, I must admit we've been here before.

I thank all you guys for the constructive, positive comments;  it's all very, very important to marketing and perception (aren't they the same??).

It is very interesting how different groups view things;  the SE Asian market is entirely different to the US market, and Europe is different again.  It's all in the perception of different cultures.

However, keep those comments coming, there are more jewels to find here!

Cheers,

Hugh

[SamL]

To me aksa amp is good value and others can think otherwise. As much as we like Hugh, his product and the sound quality of aksa, Hugh needs new customer every week to stay a float. Support cost money and if Hugh want to cut some lean fat, he need to find ways to reduce the number of support call from buyer. Be it redesigning the PCB for diy dummy or providing a video version of 'how to assemble aksa amp' the step need to be made.  More free time will allow him to carry more product and this in return create more sales. More free time also mean that he can afford to reduce the price went the 'going get tough'. Competition is coming from all corners and it is foolish to think one have a good product and will not be affected by it. There's always rooms for improvement.  Business will stop when there no more improvement.


My 2c
Sam

[gonefishin]

Hi Hugh,


   I'll get right to it...


    For most people, I don't think price is as much of an issue as the leap of faith they must take to place an order.  Don't get me wrong...price is certainly a factor.  But taking this blind leap is the largest hurdle I see for your kits.

     I suppose you've already narrowed down your customer base of those who are or will DIY an amp...and those who may DIY an amp.  The rest of the people who wish to stay with consumer products probably won't even investigate your amps passed a few clicks in this circle or at your AKSA website.  So essentially you've just focused your advertising to customers with a strong potential to buy your products.  Nice work!

     Unfortunately customer support varies from company to company.  I know I've ordered a number of audio items on-line and have been both surprised at the good service (Bent Audio, IRD, Aspen Amplifiers, Dr. Edgar) and disappointed with the lack of service and communication.  If I'm truly interested in a product I'll accept some shortcomings in service if I'm left with no other choices.  But customer service is extremely important to me...even if I rarely use it.  Just knowing that a man or women on the other end is going to treat me in fair, courteous and knowledgeable fashion is enough to put me at ease.  I'd also rather be left with little or no service than bad service...so if your having a bad day...don't take it out on me.  

    With all this being said...you've really already got this covered as well.  Your website is professional looking and easy to navigate.  It also provides you with an informative FAQ area.  These items alone are more than many companies offer...but providing a community Circle (here at AC) that provides a place where new and old customers can both come to share their projects, knowledge or questions is well beyond providing good faith in customer support.

   Another great idea (which more and more companies seem to be doing nowadays) is the traveling "demo" unit.  If someone is reluctant about buying an amplifier sight unseen.   You give them the opportunity to try it in their home in their system.  They can walk away with their own conclusions...but you've gotten them to listen to one of your products.  It's in their hands now.   The only thing I would add is that it would be great if you had your pre-amp traveling as well.  I'm not quite sure if  like the idea of the amp and preamp traveling constantly together or not.  My initial thinking is to keep them separate unless requested as such.

  Price?  Hey...I'd certainly be willing to pay a lower price for the AKSA N+ kits  .  But I do have to come to some balance of profit, performance and marketable price point.  Like I said...I'd be willing to pay less money for the products...but I've already been convinced of their quality and performance.  So I'm an easy sell.

   Like Joules said...

Hugh - Never ever ever compromise your quality.

 When I tried the first low Voltage version of the AKSA55n+ I was impressed with the sonics.  This is why I bought a second 100Wattn+ and let my brother audition to buy a 55n+.  My point is...is there was a compromise in any product I bought or auditioned...I wouldn't have been a repeat customer and I wouldn't be talking so enthusiastically about your products.  You can have the perfect price point with an appealing looking product,but if it don't sound good I'm gone.

   Where to price your products?  I'm not sure.  But I do think it's silly to directly connect the price of a kit (or product) to the cost of the parts.  How many speakers out there use materials that don't even near US$1,000...or $500 for that matter.  Yet they're asking thousands for the speakers!  You can argue that all your supplying are the parts to build a kit.  But sooo much more than that has been done.  Top to bottom design decisions in circuitry...component layout...troubleshooting and testing and component selection.  As far as I'm concerned performance is a direct reflection on design implementation with component selection.  This is what can justify the value of an audio component.  

   I haven't been too impressed with alot of the items sold in hifi boutique shops...no matter if it's speakers, amplifiers or preamps.  Most of the stuff out there seems like it's made to simply get a sale.  But your amps have surely left a favorable impression upon me...and they just so happen to be DIY.  Perhaps some people just tend to pre judge DIY components without giving them the consideration they deserve.  Too bad.


   I'll try and stop my rambling.  (whew...it's getting late )

    Bottom line...
 If you continue to make amplifiers which excel in sonic performance in a community that you frequent quite often and help out with tolerance...then you'll continue to have a growing number of salesmen out there.  In case your wondering...I'm referring to us.  Your happy customers.


   dan[/quote]

[sica]

Being a diy dummy and yet interested in an Aksa amp, I agree that a video of "How to assemble an Aska amp" is a great idea!!  

[rabbitz]

Hi Hugh

My ASKA 55N+ is extremely good value and I don't consider it expensive at all............. the price of an arm full of CD's. This amp has given me the chance to own a hi-end amplifier that I could normally not afford, is a long term investment and has and will provided so much pleasure over the years.

The first hurdle is always that leap of faith and discussed it with Hugh prior to purchase of a ASKA 55 (stock) and his answers were honest and straight forward..... rare these days. There was another product I was interested in but Hugh advised me that it wouldn't be suitable for my application. A sale lost but gained heaps of credibility (not that there was none before) and a leap faith is not an issue. Hugh then suggested the N+ advising me of the benefits....... he was right again. When you buy an ASKA, you get more than just an amplifier kit.

I've made several amplifiers and will never buy one again that doesn't come with the components. I played around with a competitors amp only to find one made with less than ordinary components sounded much better than another one made with better, but not exotic components. For me an amp supplied with components that gets the best performance possible, chosen by the designer after much R&D is the best way to go. I can't see how you can build an amp and expect it to perform as designed unless the components are supplied. It's hard to put a value on that but worth hundreds to me. Hugh is entitled to recoup these costs and try to earn a living. These other amps still cost a considerable amount to make and would be 50%-70% of the price of the ASKA but don't sound as good IMO, caused much heart burn trying to choose and source components and then wade through minimal instructions that do require a reasonable amount of knowledge. I want a kit I can assemble (great instructions BTW), plug in and enjoy.

How do you put a value on Hugh's support? I did something stupid (don't ask) and destroyed some transistors in one channel. 30 minutes going through the diagnostic instructions I had an answer...... an email to Hugh and new parts on the way at an extremely low cost and Hugh even covered the postage...... no wonder he can't make a living.

Bottom line......... ASKA worth every cent.

Peter

[Rod]

Let us say that it's a given that it's a great DIY amp and that market is sown up with a good reputation and solid customer base.

I think the issue is that the AKSA does not have a retail market. It's place in that market would definitely be boutique (at least everyone agrees on that one).  In this market people are more concerned with the quality of the sound which we are all agreeing is competitive.  It's also agreed that this is really only where you'll be getting a monetary return on your hard earned development hours over the years.

The only way to break into this market while avoiding the 'stigma' of being a kit amp is to make a new (retail) company name, some nice cases, a good quality system of production and reinvigorate your sales channels in that area.  The sales channel is really the key, this is going to require several (more!) years of foot slogging and brown nosing to get your units on shop shelves. Once there the excellent sound and quality should look after itself.

The risk here is that one needs to invest more time and much dollars with little to no expected return in at least a few years in a market that is already quite saturated.

[fajimr]

Being a diy dummy and yet interested in an Aksa amp, I agree that a video of "How to assemble an Aska amp" is a great idea!!  

yes, one of the issues is making it more accesible to us DIY dummies and I like the idea of the video althoguh figuring out how to make the video accesible to the masses might be difficult- I don't know if you and/or those you are targeting have the bandwidth.  CDs are easy but require you to send them all over the world


Here are a couple of ideas to throw into the mix that might be easier than doing video:

1) Add some pictures to the assembly directions.  For example when I read:
 
STEP 4 - Fit the 15 resistors and one preset (bias) pot
Fit all resistors except R13, R14 and R15. These are R1 through R12 on the component (non-copper) side. R13, R14 and R15 are fitted on the COPPER side at completion of step 6 and not before. Note that these three resistors require no lead holes. Note that R6 (82K), R7 (2K2), and R8 (120K), are mounted vertically on the component side;  the top lead is bent around with the finger from the lead end so that it is 5mms separated from, and parallel to, the bottom lead.

I have NO idea what this might entail... a picture of the PCB and resistors would add some context.  (of course, maybe the DIY dummy who doesn't know a resistor from his/her %&# shouldn't be attempting this although I have been motivated through others' comments to learn!)  (another issue may be intellectual rights- I am not sure what someone might be able to glean from photos)

2) With your AKSA gallery have the owners post where they sourced their materials/components.  I spent a few hours the other day looking at all the sources for cases trying to match up what I liked in the gallery to what I saw in the various websites.  I'm still not sure if I could find what I liked.  I know there is a thread on that but those who contributed didn't always have a photo.  Of course, this is something that the AKSA community would have to step forward to do.

Boy, its sure easy to come up with all these ideas, isn't it?  Putting them into action is another thing.

[Seano]

I'm with everyone else.........bang for buck I don't reckon you can do much better than an AKSA for the dollars.  Kit or factory.

That aside.........

Blimey, we are a rabid (but eloquent) bunch of fans!!    

A goodly proportion of AKSA owners certainly get in and express themselves when some-one from outside takes even a mild tap (let alone a God Almighty swing) at AKSA product..........at least we're polite about it though!

S'funny though.......I thought NAD too when I first fired up the 100. Open, full, rounded, minimalist......but still better.