VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.

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Mikerodrig27

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VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« on: 10 Feb 2021, 04:22 am »
Hi,

I just picked up a set of VR-4 speakers in disrepair. They mostly work but have a few issues. Two woofers are damaged where the voice coils are tight in the grooves and one rear firing tweeter doesn't seem to be working.

I know quite a few people seem to have upgraded their VS speakers. I was hoping if anyone had the old drivers sitting around that they may be interested in selling them.

Please reply or send me a PM if you do! Thanks!

Mike

Kevin_X

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #1 on: 10 Feb 2021, 05:47 pm »
Those woofers are unobtanium, good luck, I hope you can acquire some spares!

Amazing speakers, and I'm still kicking myself for selling mine 10 days ago.   :duh: :duh: :duh:

NoDisco

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #2 on: 10 Feb 2021, 08:36 pm »
Talk to Madisound. Let us know how you do.

Tom Bombadil

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #3 on: 10 Feb 2021, 09:19 pm »
If I remember correctly those woofers were an off the shelf driver which was then coated with some kind of varnish.  At the time they weren't very expensive.  But have been out of production for some time now.  Madisound may help you get something which is close. 

Most of the upgrades were performed by Von Schweikert, people shipped them back.  So few would have the old drivers.  Even most of those were done many years ago.   Up to at least 3-4 years ago, Von Schweikert was still selling replacement woofers, they still might.

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #4 on: 11 Feb 2021, 06:18 am »
They still do have drivers but they are quite expensive. They recommend to replace all four which would total out to $1200. Much more than I want to spend on these speakers. I may try to take some Theile small measurements of one of the good drivers and see how it looks. I have two projects lined up that could use some measurement and design work so time to purchase the Dayton Audio DATS V3.

I am crossing my fingers that a Dayton Audio RS225-8 would work as I used that driver in another project and love both it's sound and the way it works. I know that is a shot in the dark though and highly unlikely.

I will chime in if I make any progress. As of now I think everything you guys have said so far seems quite reasonable. I agree that I don't think I will find someone with used drivers. One thing I am thinking of doing is veneering the bottom cabinet which would mean the drivers would be exposed. The old stamped steel drivers with the epoxy covered cones wouldn't look very nice.

Still in the brainstorming phase. Thanks for your responses!

Tom Bombadil

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #5 on: 11 Feb 2021, 10:30 pm »
$300 a driver!  That is an expense.   But it is a good thing that original driver replacements are still stocked by VSA.  Kudos to them for still having them. 

Albert once sent me an email with information about those original drivers.  Exactly what driver to purchase, what materials to use and how to coat it.  That was about 20 years ago and I have long since lost it.  As I had my VR-4 upgraded, it was no longer relevant to me.  I did take a few minutes today to search for it, but no dice.   As I remember back then the drivers sold for less than $50.   

Although as you have the woofers, you know what they are. 

The VR-4.5 and VR-6 used Eton 8-800 8" woofers.  I believe those are out of production and Eton drivers are also pricey.   Maybe an Eton 8-612 would be close???
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2021, 02:13 am by Tom Bombadil »

kernelbob

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #6 on: 12 Feb 2021, 01:52 am »
You might call or email VSA.  I'm sure you're not the first wanting to renovate these.  I expect VSA would know what drivers now in production can most closely match the originals as well as other valuable info for your project.

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #7 on: 16 Feb 2021, 05:20 am »
Tom Bombadil, I agree. $300 is very expensive. They are an expensive company though. A heck of a lot more than I want to spend on these speakers at the moment. I just received a Dayton DATS 3 that I will use to hopefully pull the theile small parameters off of one of the good woofers. Then I can search around a little bit.

I talked to someone on the phone. They didn't mention any other drivers that would work. I am not sure how invested they are in designs of this vintage now-a-days. I suspect that the new woofer is slightly different (hopefully better) which explains the suggestion to replace all four.

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #8 on: 17 Feb 2021, 04:26 am »
Okay, so I took some measurements today. Sadly, I don't think the RS225-8 will work. I am going to start my hunt and see what I can come up with.






Rocket

Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #9 on: 17 Feb 2021, 01:13 pm »
Hi,

Just a suggestion have you thought about having the drivers repaired/refurbished? I've heard miller sound do a very good and it might be just the trick for you.

http://www.millersound.net

Cheers Rod

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #10 on: 17 Feb 2021, 01:17 pm »
If I cannot find something that fits well, I will try cutting the spider off and the surrounds, pull the cone out and see what is going on with the voice coil. Well, I should actually test the ohms of the voice coils against a good one first... Lol.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Gearguy

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #11 on: 20 Feb 2021, 03:21 pm »
Mikerodrig27 - I am writing on behalf of my colleague, Gil Schumaker, who cannot yet post. He has two VR-4 woofers and will sell them if you are interested.
Please let me know and I will get you connected to him

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #12 on: 20 Feb 2021, 05:01 pm »
Mikerodrig27 - I am writing on behalf of my colleague, Gil Schumaker, who cannot yet post. He has two VR-4 woofers and will sell them if you are interested.
Please let me know and I will get you connected to him

Absolutely! Please have him get in touch with me. I will send you a PM with my information. Thanks!

Kevin_X

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #13 on: 22 Feb 2021, 12:23 pm »
This might be the poster mentioned above, not sure.  Just saw it this morning.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174646348777

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #14 on: 22 Feb 2021, 01:40 pm »
Yes that is him. We talked for a while about gear etc. He seemed like a nice guy. He said they were $100 a piece and I pay shipping. I wanted to buy one of them. He said he was happy to help a fellow audio guy out. I told him I would pay Paypal fees etc which he said wasn't necessary. I also said to pad the shipping to account for his time which he again tole me not to worry about. A couple hours later he texted me and told me he only wants to sell the pair or nothing. I messaged saying I could do 200 shipped. He never got back.

I suppose he decided not to help a fellow audio guy out anymore...

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #15 on: 22 Feb 2021, 02:13 pm »
One thing that I noticed with the old drivers is the glue on the magnet structures come apart. He had two come apart and I have had one. Once the glue comes apart, the magnet shifts off center which traps the voice coil in the gap.

I am going to look for a replacement as replacing these old woofers with the originals seems to be risky. They also aren't the best drivers. They don't measure consistently etc. Lastly, they have foam surrounds which are degrading. They are almost to the point to where they all have to new surrounds installed.

If someone has the originals, I would suggest putting a bead of 5 min epoxy or something around the seams where the magnets sit on top of each other. If anything, the bead will act as a reference for positioning when putting the magnets back together if needed.

I had taken my woofer apart thinking there was an issue with the voice coil or gap which was a mistake. I could have likely centered the magnet and glued it back together. There are no dowels etc to keep the 3 pieces aligned.

Kevin_X

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #16 on: 22 Feb 2021, 05:52 pm »
I was really surprised to see that the surrounds were foam.  It's not even a sealed/acoustic suspension enclosure.

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #17 on: 23 Feb 2021, 01:56 pm »
I did some listening with the Dayton drivers last night. I am going to write up my thoughts tonight. I am happy with the results so far.

I also took a few pictures of different things so people can use them as a reference for later.

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #18 on: 24 Feb 2021, 04:45 am »
The cabinet volume of the two woofers (I measured each of their internal dimensions) is the same as my Bordeaux speakers (80L). I have taken two RS-225-8's out of my Bordeaux to test in the VR-4's. I did some basic listening impressions last night and tonight, no measurements so far. One speaker had the OEM speakers and the other had the Dayton RS225-8 drivers so I could A/B test them. My first impressions are good. I like the way the RS225-8 sounds vs the originals. The upper bass register seems to fill in a little but which I like. I felt like they were really missing before. This is a minor difference though. You really have to listen in order to hear it.

If I had to find something negative to say about the sound of the RS225-8 as a direct replacement, I would say they sound over dampened with the stock acoustic stuffing. However, I was hearing the full bass range and slightly more of it which is a plus on both fronts. The VR-4's speakers seem to lack bass stock especially compared to my main DIY speakers. Maybe I am acclimated to too much bass. Who knows. Most speakers seem to have a lot more bass in their voicing than the VR-4's. I may take some time to check the capacitors on the crossover boards.

You have to make the hole larger by 1/8". Not a big deal with a sanding drum in a hand drill. The holes are still small enough to easily put the stock drivers back in. It takes around 5 minutes of sanding per hole. I took the opportunity to extend the wires and put spade connectors on the ends. The woofers are not a direct swap but still a good replacement with just using my ears.

Just for kicks, I took some of the dampening material out to expose the rear of the woofer to the port and got the dampening material a few inches away from the Dayton woofers. This seemed to work well with the RS225-8. It made the bass a little stronger. I could see if someone wanted to replace the woofers with the RS225-8 to remove the acoustic stuffing and replace it with acoustic dampening foam.

Again, I have only been using my ears up until now. I plan to take the speakers outside and measure with a calibrated mic. I won't be able to get them up off of the ground to high (maybe around 3') but I can do a A/B between the stocks and Daytons and hopefully omit a lot of reflections. A lot of manufacturers seems to test bass outside even though they have Anechoic chambers. Bass is a tricky devil.

Here is a set of sanding drums similar to what I used. They go in the chuck of a hand drill. There is a 1/8" round-over on the on the mounting hole of the VR-4. I used that as a gauge to keep my sanding even.

https://www.amazon.com/WEN-DS164-20-Piece-Sanding-Presses/dp/B07DB2JYB9/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Sanding+Drum+Set&qid=1614088031&s=hi&sr=1-4

I think this (below) may be the SEAS driver that you see in the newer von schweikert vr4sr. The cabinet shape of those seems to be similar to my Bordeaux speakers which makes me think that the cabinet volume may be almost the same.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/seas-prestige-l22rn4x/p-h1208-8-aluminum-cone-woofer/

The cabinets are almost right at 40l per woofer enclosure (80l total). The ports are 8 1/4" long. Diameter is 3"

Mikerodrig27

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Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #19 on: 24 Feb 2021, 04:46 am »
I will post some pictures of different things so that people can use them as a reference. Either tonight or tomorrow some time.