VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 1414 times.

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #20 on: 25 Feb 2021, 02:31 am »
I am posting some pictures below. If anyone wants any specific picture while I am taking the speakers apart, testing etc, let me know.

A couple pictures of the bass bin crossover. Interestingly, I didn't put those screws there. I suspect they found there way there during assembly many years ago.




How the RS225-8 looks when installed into the speaker.



How much stuffing is in one woofer enclosure (there are two per bass bin)




A couple of pics comparing the stock woofer to the RS225-8





A picture inside the enclosure. I believe the wood glued and screwed to the sides and bottom are to reduce cabinet vibrations. The cabinets are pretty solid and HEAVY!



A picture of my testing setup. I swapped the speakers from side to side a couple of times.



When I took some acoustic stuffing out. I exposed the port and tried to move the stuffing away from the woofer a little bit. I liked the way this sounded better.


Kevin_X

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 37
  • It's just me
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #21 on: 25 Feb 2021, 03:05 pm »
Pictures aren't showing up for me.   :cry:


EDIT:  I'm at work, duh... if it's 3rd party hosting it might be blocked by firewall.  I'll let you know if they show up when I'm home.
« Last Edit: 25 Feb 2021, 06:48 pm by Kevin_X »

Kevin_X

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 37
  • It's just me
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #22 on: 26 Feb 2021, 12:19 pm »
Yes, I could see the pics at home.  Great work! 

Tom Bombadil

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 177
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #23 on: 27 Feb 2021, 02:25 am »
I've gotten very used to the lack of a bass bump in the 80Hz region from my modded VR-4s.  They are so flat through that 70-100Hz region, unlike most other speakers.  The original VR-4 was very clean through there, the modded VR-4 with the official VR-5/7 upgrade even more so. 

When I listen to familiar music through other speakers, I almost always hear that extra bass and I don't like it at all.  I find that accurate, articulate bass line to be one of the defining attributes of the VSR sound. 

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #24 on: 28 Feb 2021, 12:41 am »
Yes, I could see the pics at home.  Great work!

Thanks! I am glad you were able to see the pics. I did a bunch of measurements with the RS225-8 speakers. I am working on posting the results right now.

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #25 on: 28 Feb 2021, 01:05 am »
I've gotten very used to the lack of a bass bump in the 80Hz region from my modded VR-4s.  They are so flat through that 70-100Hz region, unlike most other speakers.  The original VR-4 was very clean through there, the modded VR-4 with the official VR-5/7 upgrade even more so. 

When I listen to familiar music through other speakers, I almost always hear that extra bass and I don't like it at all.  I find that accurate, articulate bass line to be one of the defining attributes of the VSR sound.

What you are saying must be true. I don't have any real significant bass issues in my room. This may be why I am missing the bass bump more than others. Maybe I have a null around the frequencies that he cut in order to make a flat room response. I am going to try them in another room after I get them all sorted out.

Do you have any pictures of the 5/7 upgrade by chance?

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Success?
« Reply #26 on: 28 Feb 2021, 02:45 am »
Okay, so I did a bunch of measuring. I don't have a ton of experience with measuring speakers but I think I got some conclusive results.

I used a Firstwatt F6 amp with the signal coming straight out of the headphone jack on my laptop. While the amp would work well, I know that the laptop DAC is probably not the best at least for fidelity. I decided to test them outside to create a more anechoic environment and avoid room reflections messing up the results.

-I took 3 measurements 37.5" from the front and repeated the same measurements from the rear of the speaker (due to the ports)
-I averaged the front results of each speaker.



This is what I got



The Daytons seems to go a bit lower. I think this is mainly due to the fact that I took a bunch of stuffing out of the enclosure. The port can work and do it's thing.

I like the results. I feel as though if I had the cabinets completely stuffed again as it was from the factory, I would have similar results to the OEM driver. The Dayton does seem to be a bit smoother as well. I like it and feel as though it is a good fit. Let me know your thoughts if you guys have any. I have the files and would be happy to share them via Email. Just PM me and I will send it all over.

There are a few other things that I like about the RS225-8 for me personally.

-There are quite a few great DIY kits that use this driver. I want to build the Travelers by Speaker Design Works someday.
-They have been around for a long time, are cheap and highly regarded by a some terrific speaker designers.
-I have the Bordeaux speakers and will feel better knowing that I have backup woofers in case one ever fails
-Cast baskets, aluminum cone, good looking etc.
-Low distortion.

I am going to go ahead and purchase 4 woofers tonight.

-What I hope to also do to these speakers is veneer or wrap the bottom bass bin and make the woofers flush
-Look at the top cabinet crossovers and drivers to see what kind of shape they are in. I know I need one rearfiring tweeter which meniscus seems to have.
-Make a new top cap and wood trim for the rest of the speaker.
Replace the binding posts throughout. The two binding post on one of the top cabinets are missing the nut part that screws onto the post. The previous owner just zip tied the wires to the top cabinets. Lol.
-If I can get the crossovers out, I may change the wiring out. I have a bunch of low oxygen wiring laying around that would be suitable.

I do love the way mids and highs are voiced on these speakers. Von Schweikert did a great job of that. I just need to get used to the bass. What I do like about the lack of the bass bump is the room isn't loaded up with bass when the top cabinet is trying to produce it's magic. This helps with the imaging and spaciousness of the mids and highs.

Tom Bombadil

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 177
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #27 on: 28 Feb 2021, 03:03 am »

Do you have any pictures of the 5/7 upgrade by chance?

No, just a description laying around somewhere.  I purchased my VR-4s used circa 1996 and had them upgraded around 2002.  Except for the rear-firing tweeter, I've never seen any of the drivers except when shining a flashlight through the sock.  Albert told me that they replaced everything insider the speaker.  The drivers, the crossovers and the wiring.  Drilled out the bass module to accept the larger woofers.  Even replaced the sock with a material which he said was more sonically transparent.   So except for the cabinets it is a whole new speaker.  Or at least it was almost 20 years ago. 

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #28 on: 28 Feb 2021, 03:09 am »
I have heard that it was an expensive upgrade but had a pretty good value when compared to purchasing a whole new speaker. I think I remember reading that the whole part inside of the top module that the speakers are fastened to gets replaced.

I believe the woofers that the woofers they were suggesting as a replacements were either the aluminum cone Seas drivers or the Magnesium ones. Most likely what they used in your 5/7 upgrade kit.

If I take the sock off of mine, I will shoot some pictures of what is going on behind the curtains. Unlike you, I can't leave anything well enough alone... Lol

Tom Bombadil

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 177
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #29 on: 28 Feb 2021, 03:41 am »
I have heard that it was an expensive upgrade but had a pretty good value when compared to purchasing a whole new speaker. I think I remember reading that the whole part inside of the top module that the speakers are fastened to gets replaced.


The standard charge for the upgrade was $2500 plus shipping to and from California.  Albert told me that they made nothing from it, that once all processing and labor and overhead was included that this was about their cost.  I knew Albert from many interactions in various on-line forums and from seeing him at audio shows.  He made me an offer of doing the upgrade for $1500 with him covering shipping back to me and that he would personally sound the speaker and tweak it to his preference.  A very generous offer.  I took him up on it. 

$1500 for replacing 4 woofers, 2 midrange drivers, 4 tweeters, all of the crossovers, internal wiring, fabric sock, the internal mounts for the mid & tweeters, and drilling out the four woofer mountings, plus shipping it back to me.   One of the best deals I ever made.  Albert was a very generous and gracious man.  Unless living circumstances prevail, I don't expect to ever sell them.  But I doubt they let me bring them into an assisted living facility, should that be in my future. 

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #30 on: 28 Feb 2021, 05:24 am »
Wow, that is a cool story. That was very generous of him. I read that Albert was very fond of this model hence the upgradability etc.

I wonder what he tweaked. Was he tweaking the crossover values a bit? Pretty cool.

Rocket

Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #31 on: 28 Feb 2021, 11:39 am »
Hi,

Are you going to redesign the crossover in the speaker because if they aren't direct replacements they may or may not work well? Millersound supposedly does great work restoring drivers and might be an option instead of buying new drivers which aren't drop in replacements.

Cheers Rod

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #32 on: 28 Feb 2021, 02:23 pm »
No. These drivers play well with the existing crossover. After a few hours of listening and another few hours of measuring, I am happy with the results. The RS225-8's work better to my ears and with my measurements. I bought 4 drivers from Parts Express last night to put in the VR-4s. The nice thing about the VR-4 design is that the crossovers are extremely low on the woofer bin. A lot of drivers can work within the parameters of that.

The original woofer drivers are not the greatest quality. Their age is showing. The magnet structures and surrounds are fragile, both problem I could address but I wanted to find something new.

The upgraded woofers would have been $1200. The four of these cost $225+ shipping. I believe the upgraded woofers are probably a fair value as I think Von Schweikert uses SEAS drivers. However, these Daytons are known for punching way above their weight class.
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2021, 04:44 pm by Mikerodrig27 »

Kevin_X

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 37
  • It's just me
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #33 on: 1 Mar 2021, 03:11 pm »




This is what the top looks like unmasked (upside down, mind you).

There is almost no slack on the tweeters.  You are practically certain to destroy them if you try to pull them out (voice of experience speaking).  The leads are soldered on.  I think the proper way to access them is by disassembling the whole enclosure and de-soldering the leads from the inside, then removing the tweeters.

Also, the wires are solid copper.  I don't think you'll get a whole lot of improvement only with new wiring, versus refurbishing the crossover itself.

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #34 on: 2 Mar 2021, 01:46 am »
Very cool! Thanks for sharing the pic!

My idea was to replace the wires in the bass bin if I happen to pull the crossover out, I would replace the wires there. I would also take the time to organize and check the caps etc. I wouldn't replace the wires for a sonic improvement, I would do it to tidy things up.

I have yet to replace the rear tweeter that doesn't seem to be working. I will likely take the top cabinet apart to see what is going on, check caps, see if the tweeter is burnt out (most likely the case). It looks like there is a replacement available for it that is relatively cheap. If the caps are low values, I will buy some nice caps for the crossover if they aren't already films.

Kevin_X

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 37
  • It's just me
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #35 on: 11 Mar 2021, 05:35 pm »
Looks like your friend on ebay has halved the price and has an opening bid of $100 OBO.  He should've taken the bird in the hand.   :nono:

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #36 on: 15 Mar 2021, 05:26 am »
Oh well. What can you do. I hope he sells them. I bet someone out there has woofers that are coming apart. I am pretty happy with the RS225-8's however. If his woofers go down in price, I may grab them just to help with resale on the speakers in case I need to make room for the next best thing. Speaking of which, I just picked up a set of Klipsch Lascalas so my head has gone to those for a little bit! I promise I will get back to these sometime soon.

On the VR-4's, I want to make the woofers flush and put a wood veneer on the bottom cab. I am thinking Mahogany as it is inexpensive to purchase but looks really expensive. A little bit of a tall order but the cost will be similar to purchasing a new sock (old one has some tears) plus my labor (spending time in the shop AKA fun.).

Ola

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #37 on: 16 Mar 2021, 11:30 am »
I follow your work with the greatest pleasure when I myself plan to go through my VR 4. Waiting with excitement until you get to the crossover filter and hope that you can measure the values of the various components. How did you remove the fabric covers? Do you know if it is possible to buy these from the VSA or does anyone else here on the forum know?

Mikerodrig27

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 24
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #38 on: 16 Mar 2021, 12:47 pm »
No reason to mess with the crossovers as far as I can tell. The drivers work well as is. I am going to leave my crossover alone.

If you unscrew the wood bottom or the wood square from the top, the fabric can be pulled up. It is just glued. If I were going to put it back, I would likely just staple it.

Ola

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: VR-4 WTB Woofers and Rear Firing Tweeter.
« Reply #39 on: 19 Mar 2021, 02:13 pm »
Ok thank you for explaining how to best take off and on the fabric covers