[JackStraw]

Mike N,

I am assuming you are next. PM me your address so that I can box it up and ship it to you soon.  

Cheers,

Sent a PM this AM. I'm looking forward to checking this out. For what it's worth, I haven't been reading audiocircle at all for the past few months. So, I'll be unbiased and comparing vs. a Tice Solo A/V.

Take care, JackStraw (aka Mike N)

[JoshK]

Ok,

Don't feel like making a long and drawn out review at this time because I have a lot to do for tax season right now but I'll give the overall summary.

The only AC devices that I have owned or own that I have as comparison at the Monster HTS-3500 (sold it a while back) and the Bolder Quantum Power Strip (QPS, hereafter).  It terms of performance I would rate the Dezorel as a 7.5.  It did protect my system from the annoying line pops and cracks that happen once in a while, especially on the weekends.  Neither of the other two products did.  In terms of listening performance, it made no real audible difference from the QPS and used together it seemed to add nothing (or subtract is probably more appropriate).  This might be a benefit as much as a deterrant.

Now the Value criteria is the harder to argue.  Through Audionut's site as we had discussed before the prices listed are outrageous and certainly not worth it from my perspective.  I would rather own the Monster at a $300 street price with more outlets and flexibility even if in theory it should be worse of a performer.  If we are talking group buy here and looking to pay in the area of $300/each from Serbia then I would say the value is fairly mediocre.  Say 7.  Certainly not bad in the sceme of things but super cheap either.

[DVV]

Ok,

Don't feel like making a long and drawn out review at this time because I have a lot to do for tax season right now but I'll give the overall summary.

The only AC devices that I have owned or own that I have as comparison at the Monster HTS-3500 (sold it a while back) and the Bolder Quantum Power Strip (QPS, hereafter).  It terms of performance I would rate the Dezorel as a 7.5.  It did protect my system from the annoying line pops and cracks that happen once in a while, especially on the weekends.  Neither of the other two products did.  In terms of listening performance, it made no real audible difference from the QPS and used together it seemed to add nothing (or subtract is probably more appropriate).  This might be a benefit as much as a deterrant.

Now the Value criteria is the harder to argue.  Through Audionut's site as we had discussed before the prices listed are outrageous and certainly not worth it from my perspective.  I would rather own the Monster at a $300 street price with more outlets and flexibility even if in theory it should be worse of a performer.  If we are talking group buy here and looking to pay in the area of $300/each from Serbia then I would say the value is fairly mediocre.  Say 7.  Certainly not bad in the sceme of things but super cheap either.

Josh, please don't take the following as any comment whatsoever on your above text, think of it as a small trigger which sort of fired me.

People, let's get one thing straight - if you want to FILTER 20 amps of current on a CONTINUOUS basis, and I remind you that this is equivalent to (20x120) 2,400 VA CONTINUOUS, you simply can't have it cheaply.

Now, throwing a pair of caps from the line to the ground is some sort of filtering, probably just enough to be able to call it a filter, but in my book, this is a toy, not a serious filter. I have seen power strips with a series attached capacitor which were called filters and people were asked to pay some $100-150 for them. I have seen filters from some well known names selling for $150-300, which did indeed offer many more output sockets than that small case you guys have (even up to eight), but which filtered from around 100 kHz upwards, i.e. after over 80% of all the junk had passed on to your audio already.

Serious filters, capable of say a minimum of -20 dB at say 20 kHz, and capable of handling enough power to cover at least 99% of all systems available out there, simply cannot be cheap, because they need quality components, sometimes also massive (depending on their design). I am not saying $300-400 is insignificantly low, but I am saying there are offerings out there providing similar performance at $2K and upwards, where in fact most of them start from for similar results. All you get extra there are more output sockets.

Before anyone asks, yes, you can have solid filtering curves for say $70-100 (European prices used here, I don't know US prices). You can have reasonable filtering, but at a price, in this case mean phase shifts. So, in the end, you get relatively clean, but also colored sound, which you may like or may hate. Certainly different. This then gives rise to discussions about differring performance in different systems.

But let's face it, well over 80% of all line filters/conditioners out there rely on the ground for effect. If the ground potential is at about 0.8V and less than 100 ohms (as specified by I think like 90% of international electrical standards), it will work; the only problem there is that in my life, I have never once measured that. A friend from Paris currently leads on my wow list - he says his ground hits 70V on occasions, and is rarely below 50V. It's mostly not as bad as that, but 10-20V seems to be the best one can reasonably expect under usual circumstances, which exclude professional installations, labs, hospitals, etc.

That DeZorel filter's greatest two virtues are that it neither needs, nor influences the ground because it's fully floating, and that it combines what I would call outstanding filtering specifications right where I need them most, within the audio band, in combination with prodigious power handling. While testing it, I connected my entire electric stove via that little box (actually, it's older version, LF-H2), turned everything on to the max (approximately 14 kilowatts) and switched it on. It worked, everything was on, but as you would expect, in about 60 seconds from cold it blew its fuse (as should be). Try that test with something else.

Eventually, I discovered that it will actually sustain a power throughput not of 10, but of 12.4 amps, where the thermal switch blows.

Try finding another line filter which you can put on your TV set, or your FM tuner, under full load, and observe/hear no disturbance whatsoever.

Lastly, try finding another filter manufacturer at around its price who delivers equivalent specifications, which I must remind you, when measured were all about 5 dB (+78%) better than specified.

But it remains a fact that the ultimate effects cannot be known beforehand. If your audio has a poor power supply, no filter can ever salvage your sound, it's as simple as that. If on the other hand your audio has a good power supply, a line filter will indeed surprise you. Some manufacturers actually rely on line junk for tjheir sound - French high end company Jadis is a good example. I tried connecting the filter to it on three separate occasions, and every time I got back a sound which had become more detailed, but also cold and sterile, more fitting of $200-300 integrated amps than $5K and upwards components. Audio Research and Krell are the exact opposites - run them through the filter and you will be surprised, and pleasantly too. But then, take a look at their power supplies...

Point is, no filter can improve your sound as such, all it can do is liberate your audio to do its best, but ultimately, you will still be limited or unlimited by your audio. And you can't make this happen for peanuts money, no matter how you tweak it.

Cheers,
DVV

[JoshK]

Dejan,

Very good points indeed and no offense taken.

[DVV]

Dejan,

Very good points indeed and no offense taken.

Thank you, Josh, none intended. The point is, there are limits to everything, limits you just can't bypass without seriously thwarting the initial purpose and function.

As for its actual price, I haven't spoken to Miki yet, I am waiting for you guys to do the entire round, and make up your minds. I did promise to support you, and I stand by that promise 100%, no matter what it is. The last time I did speak to him regarding your group purchase, the standing was that no matter what kind of deal they made with no matter whom, you guys go direct, because the whole process was initiated BEFORE they made any deals.

I have no idea what their prices are at this time, but I would imagine the units you guys might want to buy shouldn't cost more than $300-350 per unit all told, i.e. at your front door. But we'll get back to this once I have a specific list of what you guys want.

Cheers,
DVV

[JackStraw]

I received a package from JoshK yesterday. I haven't opened it yet, but I assume that it's the DeZorel. I'll play with it some this weekend, but I'll be away the bulk of next week. I'll wrap up my time with it after Easter.

Take care,
JackStraw

[JackStraw]

Ok, I'm writing a brief review and ready to send this on to the next victim. Please send the address... somebody.

[DVV]

Ok, I'm writing a brief review and ready to send this on to the next victim. Please send the address... somebody.

If I'm not mistaken, it goes back to Jerry now, I think that's it. But of course, Jerry knows better.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

Josh:

I would use the Bolder strip plugged to the DeZorel.

My opinion...

[DVV]

Josh:

I would use the Bolder strip plugged to the DeZorel.

My opinion...

I second that.

Cheers,
DVV

[JackStraw]

I haven’t been following this thread, so I apologize for any redundant info.

For background info, I have fresh, clean suburb power. My system is plugged into a standard outlet on a non-dedicated circuit. I’ve thought about putting in a hospital grade outlet, but I haven’t bothered. I evaluated the DeZorel vs. my Tice Solo A/V. The Tice has 3 circuits, one specifically intended for power amps (two outlets), one circuit for analog sources (four outlets), and one for digital (two outlets). Prior to this exercise I had my amp plugged into the Tice, my transport and DAC plugged into the digital circuit, and other assorted equipment plugged into the analog circuit.

The Tice claims to clean up AC when it’s plugged in, regardless of whether the components are plugged into it. I accounted for this claim during my evaluation by making sure that the Tice was unplugged when I wasn’t evaluating it.

On the cosmetics/features front, the DeZorel has one circuit and two outlets vs. what I previously described for the Tice. Clearly we’re talking apples and watermelons here, so I don’t consider this to be a negative – but it’s worth having here for the record. The DeZorel has three rubber feet (two in front one in back). I have a pretty cramped setup, and I found it necessary to reach in with two hands to plug/unplug in the back of the DeZorel (one hand for the plug, one to prevent the DeZorel from tipping). This is not true for the Tice, which is a heavier unit. I’d like to see 4 feet for stability and a heavier case. Stickier feet might help too. The weight might even help sound, who knows. Minor negative for the DeZorel.

I listened to a variety of combinations, and arrived at the following conclusions:

1) I’ve gotta plug my amp into the wall rather than into the Tice. Several people have told me that compression isn’t a problem with the Tice unit, but what I heard (or think I heard) during this evaluation contradicts that. The change is kind of like a veil has been removed (albeit a thin veil) – more sound is getting through and the pace is improved. Some might interpret this as brightness and prefer the conditioned power, I suppose, but I like it better. I wonder whether I should be concerned about not having my amp on a surge protector, though… Any comments?

2) The DeZorel did a better job with the amp than the Tice. The veil that I mentioned above was barely noticeable with the DeZorel. But, if I had a 1 circuit, two outlet unit, I’d use it for digital and plug the amp into the wall. Of course, one of the multi-circuit DeZorel units could accommodate the amp as well.

3) The DeZorel did a better job on digital than the Tice. I determined this with the amp plugged into the wall. Mids and highs were clearer and more dynamic – more like real instruments and voices than a recording. The sound was more natural and lifelike. The difference was not jaw dropping, but it was not hard to notice either.

To sum it up, the DeZorel beat the Tice for both an amp and digital power – no debate. I think that these products are in different leagues. Pricing is dramatically different also. I won’t suggest that the DeZorel is “Major League” at this point. I haven’t heard it vs. products like BPT, PS Audio, and the like.

And, to be clear, the Tice is not garbage. I’m planning to continue to use it and I’m getting satisfying sound as my system stands. But, since I have the Tice I could imagine getting a two outlet unit one day for my digital front end only. The DeZorel would be a candidate for sure.


Performance – 7.5
Value – 6

[DVV]

... This is not true for the Tice, which is a heavier unit. I’d like to see 4 feet for stability and a heavier case. Stickier feet might help too. The weight might even help sound, who knows. Minor negative for the DeZorel. ...

Jack, I have to take issue with this. Any mechanical engineer will tell you three points is IDEAL for distribution of lateral forces - hence, most antennas, for example, are anchored at three, not four and more points (or, if exceptionally large, a multiple of three, typically 6 points).

In other words, there are three feet ON (TECHNICAL) PURPOSE, not for saving's sake, but because it's the best mechanical solution for least vibration. And they are not alone in doing this; for example, the high end French company YBA also does it this way.

As for sticky, point taken, not that I need it. About a year ago, I suggested to them they offer some optional upgrades on their models, one of them being Norwegian made SoundCare spikes/feet (they LOOK like standard feet, but are in fact spikes). They didn't take me up on thet because it would add around $50 per case to the price, but after reading your piece, I think I'll suggest it all over to them. Heck, I use that for improved effect, why shouldn't others at least have the option if they want it?

As for weight improving the sound, I guess it might, but I think using a larger model with multiple sections, such as the one I have, will help both by electrical isolation and increased mass (mine weighs in at around 18 lbs, about 2.5 times that one there).

Cheers,
DVV

[JackStraw]

... This is not true for the Tice, which is a heavier unit. I’d like to see 4 feet for stability and a heavier case. Stickier feet might help too. The weight might even help sound, who knows. Minor negative for the DeZorel. ...

Jack, I have to take issue with this. Any mechanical engineer will tell you three points is IDEAL for distribution of lateral forces - hence, most antennas, for example, are anchored at three, not four and more points (or, if exceptionally large, a multiple of three, typically 6 points).

Three points is better theoretically, but this unit rocked so much when I plugged into it that the back corner hit the surface of the shelf. Maybe it would be more stable with the two points in line along the long side of the rectangle. In this case, they're along the short side (the front of the unit) -- maybe that's the issue.

[Psychicanimal]

Jack:

I did own a Tice A/V Solo for over two years, as it was my first line filter.  It is a very effective unit at what it does and my friend Tony and his wife, who purchased it from me, are very happy with it (great performance and WAF).

Now, the Tice is an inductor based design and therefore suffers from inductive effects.  Plugging in a power amplifier on the amplifier outlets (which do not filter, BTW) will cause a loss in bass response.  The power amp is better off by itself on a cryo'ed outlet.  Another thing to take into account is the "TPT" treatment George Tice did on his products.  Being an owner of Tice power cords and interconnects I can tell you that the TPT treatrment affects the bass response and messes up the extreme high frequencies.  I had a set of Tice ICs and a power cord cryo'ed at Jena Labs and after proper burn in, I got much better results: cleaner, smoother, more neutral presentation.

I would only plug very few components to the A/V Solo and if you want my suggestion, get a small used ONEAC isolation transformer (1-2 amps) from eBay to plug to the Solo.  Plug your digital component to the ONEAC.  In such a way you will minimize inductive interactions between components and further improve noise reduction in a musically benign way.  I have found that the Absolute Power Cord has the ability to "correct" most of the adverse effects caused by the TPT treatment (even more so if cryoed).  I see no problem for video applications but for audio is not so good.  So if you have a TV the Tice will be very good.  What I would suggest is to rig a ONEAC with a male IEC and hook up a cryo'ed Absolute for digital.  This is a rather inexpensive way to use what you already have, especially if you have video applications.  You could use the DeZorel for hooking up a power amp only.

Last but not least, there is no such thing as "clean" suburban power.  There is always noise no matter what.  You'd be surprised...

[DVV]

Jack:

I did own a Tice A/V Solo for over two years, as it was my first line filter.  It is a very effective unit at what it does and my friend Tony and his wife, who purchased it from me, are very happy with it (great performance and WAF).

Now, the Tice is an inductor based design and therefore suffers from inductive effects.  Plugging in a power amplifier on the amplifier outlets (which do not filter, BTW) will cause a loss in bass response.  The power amp is better off by itself on a cryo'ed outlet.  Another thing to take into account is the "TPT" treatment George Tice did on his products.  Being an owner of Tice power cords and interconnects I can tell you that the TPT treatrment affects the bass response and messes up the extreme high frequencies.  I had a set of Tice ICs and a power cord cryo'ed at Jena Labs and after proper burn in, I got much better results: cleaner, smoother, more neutral presentation.

I would only plug very few components to the A/V Solo and if you want my suggestion, get a small used ONEAC isolation transformer (1-2 amps) from eBay to plug to the Solo.  Plug your digital component to the ONEAC.  In such a way you will minimize inductive interactions between components and further improve noise reduction in a musically benign way.  I have found that the Absolute Power Cord has the ability to "correct" most of the adverse effects caused by the TPT treatment (even more so if cryoed).  I see no problem for video applications but for audio is not so good.  So if you have a TV the Tice will be very good.  What I would suggest is to rig a ONEAC with a male IEC and hook up a cryo'ed Absolute for digital.  This is a rather inexpensive way to use what you already have, especially if you have video applications.  You could use the DeZorel for hooking up a power amp only.

That cables do make a difference is a fact of life to me. It seems that the boys in DeZorel agree, because when I spoke to them last some months ago regarding that sample over there, they said they would be changing input power from captive cable to IEC socket as standard, with their own power cable as an option and possibly another extremely high quality cable as another option.

It seems a lot of people were asking for the IEC socket because like Francisco, they already had a power cable they thought was very good, and possibly very expensive.

Last but not least, there is no such thing as "clean" suburban power.  There is always noise no matter what.  You'd be surprised...

You said it, Francisco. There's no "clean" power anywhere, that's just a fiction, a theoretical assumption. True, it's not polluted to the same extent and/or way everywhere, but clean it is not.

Cheers,
DVV

[JackStraw]

Jack:

Last but not least, there is no such thing as "clean" suburban power.  There is always noise no matter what.  You'd be surprised...

You said it, Francisco. There's no "clean" power anywhere, that's just a fiction, a theoretical assumption. True, it's not polluted to the same extent and/or way everywhere, but clean it is not.

Thanks for the suggestions, Psychic.

On the suburb power comment... what I meant was that I don't have crazy pops, etc. that people who live in more industrial areas might have. A more accurate comment would have been reliable suburb power.

[JackStraw]

ok, Who has them now?

A new audioner on the list, Lak; welcome the fun

9. Mark C, Ontario
10. JoshK, NY
11. Mike N.
12. Briley, Greensboro NC
13. Lak, Perrysburg, Ohio

Ok, it seems like Jerry is on vacation. Briley, can you please send me your address in a PM? I'd like to keep this moving.

Thanks.

[audiojerry]

Briley,
We've been trying to contact you (email and pm) Since you are not around at this time, Lak will be next.

Lak are you around? If so, pm Jackstraw.

[Wayne1]

Jerry,

Briley is another name for Hantra. Try PMing him that way.

[JackStraw]

Briley,
We've been trying to contact you (email and pm) Since you are not around at this time, Lak will be next.

Lak are you around? If so, pm Jackstraw.

I got email from what's his name (Briley/Hantra) the other day. I have his address, and will ship on Saturday.