What kit here beats this?

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EcksDee

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What kit here beats this?
« on: 26 Apr 2020, 01:32 pm »
Hello everyone. I have been reading and following threads here for awhile but just made an account!

I need to ask two things.

1. I have a friend who says DIY speakers CAN'T compete. I mean that guy rocks a B&W CM9 S1. Powered with a 200 watt Stereo Amp. I have heard his setup. Super good. But also expensive side of things.
So. What kit here would best that? I am sure something like the LS9 would probably defeat it easy, but I am asking what's the LEAST amount you can spend and get VERY close or beat it? Can something like the Enclose MTM Towers do it?

2. I am also looking for a kit.

My requirements are to play LOUD. My preference of music is Rock/EDM. I don't listen to jazz or classical so if that matters for sound preferences. My room is not too big. It's about 14x16. I have a subwoofer. But i'd like the speakers to dig down to 40hz atleast if possible, if not, that's fine aswell!

What kit would be recommended for me? I really liked the sound of the B&W I heard if that helps decide!

corndog71

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #1 on: 26 Apr 2020, 03:39 pm »
I think a fully upgraded pair of X-MTM Encore would be very competitive for a lot less money.  Add a servo sub and you’ll get full extension to 20 Hz.

orientalexpress

Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #2 on: 26 Apr 2020, 03:49 pm »
It's really simple ,find someone in your area to Audition GR research and decide for yourself .you can't beat Denny speakers for any price ,especially with Jay pre cut wood .

Captainhemo

Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #3 on: 26 Apr 2020, 03:57 pm »
Yes, you  could  do as Rob suggests   and build both    the X-MTM's and  the   sealed servo sub for  far less money and I'm beting  yyou  and your  friend  will be shocked.
By  upgrades,     he's saying  Sonicaps,  Mi-Flex bypass caps, Gortz foil inductors, Mils resistors,  and of course,  the  tube  connectors.

These speakers will compete with, and in many cases oout perform,   speakers  at many , many times  the cost\


jay

EcksDee

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #4 on: 26 Apr 2020, 04:05 pm »
That's great!

Has anyone experienced a comparison vs a similar commercial alternative?

FullRangeMan

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #5 on: 26 Apr 2020, 04:11 pm »
What is your amp? You like tubes, transistor etc?
It will be a permanet amp or you will up-grade?

EcksDee

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #6 on: 26 Apr 2020, 04:13 pm »
I have a Denon AVR-X2400H that puts out 100 watts @ 8 ohms.

I am not really looking to upgrade the AVR/amp.

mlundy57

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #7 on: 26 Apr 2020, 04:25 pm »
Yes, you  could  do as Rob suggests   and build both    the X-MTM's and  the   sealed servo sub for  far less money and I'm beting  yyou  and your  friend  will be shocked.
By  upgrades,     he's saying  Sonicaps,  Mi-Flex bypass caps, Gortz foil inductors, Mils resistors,  and of course,  the  tube  connectors.

These speakers will compete with, and in many cases oout perform,   speakers  at many , many times  the cost\


jay

This would be my recommendation also. The X-MTM Encores will easily get to 40Hz and with room gain could  get down to the mid to low 30s. The subs can get you flat to 20Hz and -3 in the mid teens.

Mike

nickd

Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #8 on: 26 Apr 2020, 04:44 pm »
The X-Statik’s will play loud and embarrass the CM-9 in dynamics and the vocal ranges.
I owned DM-7’s years ago. The crossover was smooth, but they had some mild colorations in the mid range. No dynamics at all compared to Danny’s designs.

I would think his studio monitors will easily sound better than the CM-9. But the added pair of 6” woofers of the CM-9 will play louder in the 60hz to 200hz range. Three ways just have an advantage there.

You might be surprised how loud the studio monitors will play if properly crossed over to servo subs at 80hz. A high pass crossover would be needed for your amp to save the 6” mid woofers from heavy bass duties. The servo subs will hit plenty hard for the critical 40-80hz rock & techno ranges.

Someone needs to talk Jay into making flat packs for the X-Statik’s. Easy DYI build with A flat pack and crazy value in the high end world.

Sonicjoy

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #9 on: 26 Apr 2020, 05:08 pm »
nickd I would caution that the NX-Studio Monitors will not be ideal for those that like it loud. I am currently running them with stereo Vandersteen 2wq subs with the matching M5-HPB High pass filters before the main amps that relieve the monitors of the low end load. Even with this set up they don't have the dynamic punch of larger speakers (in the mid bass and lower mid range) with much more displacement. (more and/or larger drivers)  They are wonderful at low to moderate volumes but start running out of gas as the volume goes way up. I am running them with 275 watt class D mono's so power is not the issue. Now in a small room maybe?

EcksDee

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #10 on: 26 Apr 2020, 05:11 pm »
That's what I was thinking.

the CM9 will have an advantage of moving more air since its 2 6" drivers and its a 3 way on top of that!


So Encore MTM or the X Statik?

Will the X Statik sound fine for hiphop/rap? I thought open baffle speakers are better suited for vocals/acoustics. Am I wrong?

Tyson

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #11 on: 26 Apr 2020, 06:13 pm »
NX-Ottica towers will crush the B&W's. 

Wind Chaser

Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #12 on: 26 Apr 2020, 06:16 pm »
NX-Ottica towers will crush the B&W's. 

I didn't know they were that heavy.  :lol:

Sonicjoy

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #13 on: 26 Apr 2020, 06:35 pm »
NX-Ottica towers will crush the B&W's. 
I have no doubt that they will Tyson. I had a set of B&W CD9NT's which are similar to the CM9 S1's. They didn't last long in my system so I have some idea.

EcksDee

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #14 on: 26 Apr 2020, 06:41 pm »

I have no doubt that they will Tyson. I had a set of B&W CD9NT's which are similar to the CM9 S1's. They didn't last long in my system so I have some idea.

That's great you have reference to B&W sound and similar speakers. What speakers from GR Research have you had or heard? And which do you think would compare WELL against the B&W CM9?


NX-Ottica towers will crush the B&W's. 

NX-Ottica are out of budget for me!

RonP

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #15 on: 26 Apr 2020, 06:59 pm »
1. I have a friend who says DIY speakers CAN'T compete.

I mean there's nothing stopping someone from putting out their shingle to sell craptasic DIY audio gear. The key is to find well-designed gear with a high level of performance. It sounds like your friend hasn't run across the good DIY stuff available. Quality DIY isn't very mainstream and takes some searching to find. So it's not really surprising someone would have this perspective.


The good news is, you are in the right place!  :thumb:


nickd

Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #16 on: 26 Apr 2020, 07:46 pm »
Quote
nickd I would caution that the NX-Studio Monitors will not be ideal for those that like it loud. I am currently running them with stereo Vandersteen 2wq subs with the matching M5-HPB High pass filters before the main amps that relieve the monitors of the low end load. Even with this set up they don't have the dynamic punch of larger speakers (in the mid bass and lower mid range) with much more displacement. (more and/or larger drivers)  They are wonderful at low to moderate volumes but start running out of gas as the volume goes way up. I am running them with 275 watt class D mono's so power is not the issue. Now in a small room maybe?

Sonic Joy,
I would defer to your opinion of course as you have built and rocked a set of Danny’s monitors.
That said, I tried to find the crossover slope of those M5 in line units. Not much info on them at all. One thing I know for sure. Line level crossovers are best if active. My amp uses DSP, the CR-1 from JL is also very good. Might make quite a difference with a 18 or 24 dB per octave slope in a circuit that actually drives the amp input with high current. The M5 looks like a charge coupled circuit with some impedance compensation. As Richard is quite fond of first order slopes, I would think the 6” woofer is still seeing almost full range signal, and your amp has a few caps in front of the input buffer that might limit the preamp drive. Like you said, OK for smaller rooms. Maybe not ideal for loud rock.  :drums:

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #17 on: 26 Apr 2020, 09:13 pm »
Well, just a quick look on paper at the B&W you said you heard and liked:

3-way, 200W power handling, 89dB sensitive, 8-ohm load (more like 4-ohm with a pair of narrow frequency peaks at what looks like the crossover points if the graph I found was accurate https://audio.com.pl/images/9/2/0/20920-max_bw_cm_lab.jpg), aluminum dome tweeter, kevlar 6" midrange, 2x6.5" kevlar woofers.

The X-MTM you mention are a 2-way, about 90Db sensitive, 8-ohm impedance (and knowing something about Danny's designs in general, this is probably a more honest 8-ohms and a pretty flat curve, meaning these should be easier to drive if you don't have some hefty amps feeding them), and use a fabric dome and a pair of treated paper 6.5" woofers.

Both speakers seem to get down around where you want to be in terms of low end extension, but I'd think they are going to sound noticeably different from each other.  I'd agree that the X-MTM are probably the closest to an apples-to-apples kit by comparison (in terms of sensitivity and the amount of air moving on the low end), but considering the above saying they are similar by comparison is really a bit of a stretch.

I think I'd agree with others here that for what you're after, a pair of these (or the monitor X-CS cousins) and a pair of subs would be the way to go, but I guess a better question to ask would be how loud is loud?  I can't doubt the X-series speakers would be at a disadvantage as far as sound quality (albeit different), but I have to wonder if they would run out of gas in terms of sound quantity before the B&W assuming the B&W have a big/heavy enough amp behind them.

Two alternatives from Danny worth mentioning, I think

If you've heard or could get behind the idea of horns, Tyson just had Danny put together an upgrade kit for the current model Klipsch Forte III, which I think would be right up your wheelhouse in terms of maximizing a setup for the music you like.

Also, I did a quick search on the B&W C9 and found the current comparable model is the 703 which seem to retail (new MSRP) at about 4K a pair.  I don't know exactly what your budget is, but there are a couple of really solid deals on folks selling used LS6 right now (the "little brother" to the LS9, although calling the LS6 "little" is again a stretch), and if you can swing around $3K to pick up a pair of those (and can arrange your room to sit far enough back from them) I think you would end up with a speaker for your music tastes that you would have to spend A LOT more money to try to better, and even then there is upgrade room to build up the stock crossovers and internals of a stock set of LS6 to get even more out of them before you'd be at considering a whole-speaker upgrade.  Even further, again, specifically thinking about your music tastes (I did an extended demo years ago with a selection of similar music on arguably the most decked-out LS9 ever built with a stupid amount of Raven audio tube amplification to drive them), I'm at a loss off the top of my head as to what you might change these out for that could decidedly better them on the market today; at this level of speaker, a lot of times you're looking at lateral moves in terms of the little details than decidedly "better" speaker upgrades.

Welcome to AudioCircle!

EcksDee

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #18 on: 27 Apr 2020, 12:09 am »
Well, just a quick look on paper at the B&W you said you heard and liked:

3-way, 200W power handling, 89dB sensitive, 8-ohm load (more like 4-ohm with a pair of narrow frequency peaks at what looks like the crossover points if the graph I found was accurate https://audio.com.pl/images/9/2/0/20920-max_bw_cm_lab.jpg), aluminum dome tweeter, kevlar 6" midrange, 2x6.5" kevlar woofers.

The X-MTM you mention are a 2-way, about 90Db sensitive, 8-ohm impedance (and knowing something about Danny's designs in general, this is probably a more honest 8-ohms and a pretty flat curve, meaning these should be easier to drive if you don't have some hefty amps feeding them), and use a fabric dome and a pair of treated paper 6.5" woofers.

Both speakers seem to get down around where you want to be in terms of low end extension, but I'd think they are going to sound noticeably different from each other.  I'd agree that the X-MTM are probably the closest to an apples-to-apples kit by comparison (in terms of sensitivity and the amount of air moving on the low end), but considering the above saying they are similar by comparison is really a bit of a stretch.

I think I'd agree with others here that for what you're after, a pair of these (or the monitor X-CS cousins) and a pair of subs would be the way to go, but I guess a better question to ask would be how loud is loud?  I can't doubt the X-series speakers would be at a disadvantage as far as sound quality (albeit different), but I have to wonder if they would run out of gas in terms of sound quantity before the B&W assuming the B&W have a big/heavy enough amp behind them.

Two alternatives from Danny worth mentioning, I think

If you've heard or could get behind the idea of horns, Tyson just had Danny put together an upgrade kit for the current model Klipsch Forte III, which I think would be right up your wheelhouse in terms of maximizing a setup for the music you like.

Also, I did a quick search on the B&W C9 and found the current comparable model is the 703 which seem to retail (new MSRP) at about 4K a pair.  I don't know exactly what your budget is, but there are a couple of really solid deals on folks selling used LS6 right now (the "little brother" to the LS9, although calling the LS6 "little" is again a stretch), and if you can swing around $3K to pick up a pair of those (and can arrange your room to sit far enough back from them) I think you would end up with a speaker for your music tastes that you would have to spend A LOT more money to try to better, and even then there is upgrade room to build up the stock crossovers and internals of a stock set of LS6 to get even more out of them before you'd be at considering a whole-speaker upgrade.  Even further, again, specifically thinking about your music tastes (I did an extended demo years ago with a selection of similar music on arguably the most decked-out LS9 ever built with a stupid amount of Raven audio tube amplification to drive them), I'm at a loss off the top of my head as to what you might change these out for that could decidedly better them on the market today; at this level of speaker, a lot of times you're looking at lateral moves in terms of the little details than decidedly "better" speaker upgrades.

Welcome to AudioCircle!


Thankyou so much!

Atleast I learned how to compare speakers atleast a little. I like how you noted the specs of both and compared them!

So all in all. Encore MTM is what I should go for? I say this, because I don't have the budget for LS6 or the NX-Ottica towers that were mentioned here.

I am willing to go around 500 USD for the pair, without cabinets included. So I guess my budget stretches as far as the X Statiks. But if the Encores/or the Classic MTM is better suited for my music style, which is hip/hop rap rock EDM. Then I guess i'd go with that.


So am I right to assume it has come down to X-Classic MTM and X-Encore MTM based upon everyones recommendations for me?

What type of MAX SPL can I expect from both of them before they run out of gas? I know i've seen specs of speakers saying "MAX SPL = 105db @ 40hz and up at 1 meter"

Do we have such a number for these?

FullRangeMan

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Re: What kit here beats this?
« Reply #19 on: 27 Apr 2020, 01:19 am »

Thankyou so much!

Atleast I learned how to compare speakers atleast a little. I like how you noted the specs of both and compared them!

So all in all. Encore MTM is what I should go for? I say this, because I don't have the budget for LS6 or the NX-Ottica towers that were mentioned here.

I am willing to go around 500 USD for the pair, without cabinets included. So I guess my budget stretches as far as the X Statiks. But if the Encores/or the Classic MTM is better suited for my music style, which is hip/hop rap rock EDM. Then I guess i'd go with that.


So am I right to assume it has come down to X-Classic MTM and X-Encore MTM based upon everyones recommendations for me?

What type of MAX SPL can I expect from both of them before they run out of gas? I know i've seen specs of speakers saying "MAX SPL = 105db @ 40hz and up at 1 meter"

Do we have such a number for these?
Seems you are in a spl competition, these GR Research speakers are Hi-End speakers intended to sound good with a refined performane that home audio deserve. Hi spl and hi wattage speakers are requeriments of pro-audio speakers, woofers with 1000Wrms or more are common in that market.
« Last Edit: 27 Apr 2020, 09:30 am by FullRangeMan »