[pinkfloyd4ever]

Hey all. So I'm looking at upgrading from my Chromecast Audio to something a little better sounding that supports gapless playback, but I don't have the cash for something like the Bluesound Node 2i. Even a used Bluesound Node 2 tends to be a little steep. And from what I've read the old Sonos Connects are not really worth the price for HiFi use, even used and when using an external DAC. Yes I know of the Wyred4Sound-modded Sonos Connect, but even the rare used examples of those that I've seen come up for sale are also way out of my price range. If anyone knows of other commercially produced plug-n-play streaming transports with optical digital out that offer reliable connections, a simple user interface, and great sound for $200 or less (including used models), let me know cause I'm all ears.

I currently feed my Chromecast's stream to an external DAC via the optical out which I plan to continue doing with a new streamer if/when I upgrade.

I also keep thinking about John Darko's videos and articles talking about how great the Raspberry Pi based streamers sound. I do have a good bit of DIY audio experience, and I consider myself fairly tech savvy. I'm no programmer but I think I could handle downloading and copying an RPi OS iso file to a microSD card.

Darko's video is good for what it is, but it's a high-level overview of RPi streamers to give you an idea if it's something you might be interested in. I'm looking for something more detailed and in-depth for those who've decided to make the plunge. I've googled till my face is blue but I can't find one comprehensive guide for beginners that's up to date and explains well how it all works together and what exactly each piece of software does, and how something like Volumio compares to its alternatives, and how you actually use it with Tidal, Spotify, or other streaming services.

I would only be using this streamer for cloud-based streaming services. I'd like to avoid the added monthly fees of Roon and Volumio if possible. In fact I'm not sure what Roon or Volumio would even do for me if since I don't have any local ripped music files to worry about. But then again, I've never used either Roon and Volumio and so I'm not familiar with all of their functionality.

Right now I just use Spotify Premium for my streaming music, but I'm looking at upgrading to either Tidal, Deezer, or Qobuz. Any thoughts or recommendations among those 3 services? Do any offer a HiFi family plan similar to Spotify's Premium Family plan? And do any of them have a catalog as big as Spotify's or an interface that promotes new music discovery as well as Spotify?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

[Tyson]

I was going to do the Raspberry Pi path too but ran into the same issues you did.  So I ended up just getting an Auralic Aries for a lot more $$, but I'm still curious to see what everyone says here.

Re: streaming services - you should try each of them.  They definitely don't sound the same.  For me, since Qobuz dropped their price to $15 per month for unlimited hirez, that was a kind of no brainer, and they do have quite a bit more hirez than the other services.  Plus over the past 6 months the sound of the service improved, IME they sound better than the others.  That wasn't true always, but it is now. 

[mboxler]

I've been using the Squeezebox Touch for years, running LMS on my Windows 10 PC.  I thought I'd try an Rpi based system, since I could run LMS on the Rpi, allowing me to shut off my computer and still listen to streaming music.  Spotify, Tidel, Radio Paradise.

I use PiCoreplayer.  I know little to nothing about Linux, but the installation wasn't too painful.  People on the forum are very helpful.

Do you really want to use your own DAC?  The Rpi's output digital stream is i2s.  You can get a HAT to convert this to spdif, and connect that to your DAC, or use an i2s DAC HAT like the Allo DAC Boss, which converts i2s to analog.  Connect this to your amp and you are done.

I control mine using iPeng on my phone.  Took a while to get used to no screen on my player.

For fun, here is an Rpi, running LMS (music server) and Squeezelite (music client), connected to an $8.00 PCM1502 DAC (next to the quarter).  I can connect my amp to the headphone jack and listen to many streaming services.  Not practical, but a great learning experience.

Mike

[Steidl Guitars]

Hi Kevin,

...how great the Raspberry Pi based streamers sound. I do have a good bit of DIY audio experience, and I consider myself fairly tech savvy. I'm no programmer but I think I could handle downloading and copying an RPi OS iso file to a microSD card.

I'm thinking that you can handle it too, so I'm going to encourage you to jump in.  As you go through the process, you'll learn what to do, which will help you get out of jams in the future. 

The hardware side is pretty trivial.  Get a Raspberry Pi, power supply, and a couple of SD cards -- small ones, maybe 16 GB.  The cards are cheap and having a few will let you try a few different OSs.  You're going to feed an external DAC, which is what I do too.  You can do that straight away through through the Pi's USB (assuming your DAC can take USB), but I feed mine through the i2s as @mboxler mentioned.  To do that, you'll need to purchase an add-on board (HAT) to extract the signal.  I use one from Allo, but there are lots of them out there.  Find one that suits your needs and price point -- to install it, you pretty much just line it the pins and press.

Of course, Allo will sell you one already assembled and with an OS:  https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-player.html

The software side is more complicated, but one great thing about computers is that when they piss you off you can unplug them!  You'll need to download an OS then install it onto the SD card, so you need access to a card reader.  I use Win32DiskManager to write to the card but there are other options.

I think the OSs are more alike than different, but since you have specific needs, those will help you decide which ones to try.  I also happen to run PiCorePlayer, but that's mostly because I've been using the Squeezebox system for years.  I've used Moode too and found it a bit easier to set up.  They offer a setup guide, which is sparse, but covers everything. 

https://github.com/moode-player/moode/blob/master/www/setup.txt

If you can connect the RPi directly to your router with a cable during set up, that's 'Ethernet mode,' which is a bit easier (even if you ultimately want to use WiFi).  If you can't connect with a cable, Moode has an 'Access Point (AP) mode' that allows you to get connected to your network through WiFi. 

Once you're that far, you'll need to tell it what signal you want to use (USB or i2s) and which hardware you have attached to the Pi.  I'd probably put a few music rips on a thumb drive so you'll have something to play right away to make sure everything is working as expected.  There are steps you can take later to make things more convenient (like assigning the Pi a fixed address on your network), but one giant step at a time.

I'm a relic, so I actually own physical music, which means I have never set up one of these to use a service -- but I am sure you can find help with that.

I'm sure I missed stuff, but hopefully that'll encourage you to get started.

Good luck!
Bob

[Rusty Jefferson]

Kevin,

I'm fortunate that have a friend who likes to tinker with this stuff. He purchased Rpi 3s and 4s and configured them in slightly different ways with OSs. The pi 4 with a particular OS sounded superior to the others tested including the 3 which for some reason some folks on the web say is better.  Don't know what they're listening for. I'll try to find a which OS he loaded. He put one together for me the same as his for my secondary system and it is set up for Qobuz streaming though it'll be another week or 2 until I sign up. We also use ours as a DLNA renderer to send files from a NAS.  We're both hardwired to a network. If you have to go Wireless, you need the type (booster I think) you can plug in near your stereo and assign channels to, then run ethernet from it to the pi. One of my friends is doing this approach with almost indistinguishable quality as hardwired, though set up is too nerdy for me.

Adding hats is not desirable audibly. We both use stand alone dacs via (quality) usb cable. It's the easiest/best sounding configuration.  2 weekends ago we demoed one of our pi4s for a friend running a 3b with the s/pdif hat and he bought a 4 and usb cable that day.  Be sure to use the usb 2 jack on the pi. Many dacs don't play well (or at all) with usb 3. We use BubbleUpnp to control from a tablet. Not like using Roon, but fine and only $5.

I'll report back when I get some answers from my friend, or feel free to reach me by pm.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

To all, yes I've been planning to go with a HAT that converts the I2S to S/PDIF with a Toslink output to my external DAC.

We're both hardwired to a network. If you have to go Wireless, you need the type (booster I think) you can plug in near your stereo and assign channels to, then run ethernet from it to the pi. One of my friends is doing this approach with almost indistinguishable quality as hardwired, though set up is too nerdy for me.

Wait, so are you saying that these RPi based streamers require a wired Ethernet connection? Man, if that's the case that may be the end of my exploration of these.

Adding hats is not desirable audibly. We both use stand alone dacs via (quality) usb cable. It's the easiest/best sounding configuration.  2 weekends ago we demoed one of our pi4s for a friend running a 3b with the s/pdif hat and he bought a 4 and usb cable that day.  Be sure to use the usb 2 jack on the pi. Many dacs don't play well (or at all) with usb 3. We use BubbleUpnp to control from a tablet. Not like using Roon, but fine and only $5.

Hmm really? John Darko says the opposite in his video on the subject. But odds are the two of you were probably using different HATs and different DACs, so that could very well be the reason for the difference in your opinions.

[Rusty Jefferson]

Wired from the extender (which is plugged in near the stereo) but wireless from the router to the extender. I have  no experience with a completely wireless configuration on a pi. Here's what my friend is doing.

"The wireless bridge is TP-Link AC2600 RE650 Range Extender, which I am using in bridge mode with ethernet cable from the bridge to the RPI. I was having problems with using it initially, probably because I did not get clear wireless channels and therefore could not get reliable connection back to the router. Once I worked on my router wireless configuration, I was able to setup clear 2.4G and 5G channels that the range extender could connect to, but by that time, I was already using the powerline adapter in my system and moved it to my basement. When I discovered the hum issue with the powerline adapter, I just swapped the wireless range extender back in and it worked flawlessly. BTW, I set up the unit with its own SSID, so made sure than nothing else on my network connects to the range extender, by default it uses the same SSID as the router, which caused alot of problems initially with devices randomly disconnecting and reconnecting based on the strongest signal. I have had it running now for a few weeks now, and it is solid."

I can confirm this setup sounds virtually as good as hardwired from the router/switch.

USB coming out of the pi to the dac is preferable to optical or s/pdif if sound quality is a driving force. If you need flexibility, that's fine.

[Rusty Jefferson]

...Hmm really? John Darko says the opposite in his video on the subject. But odds are the two of you were probably using different HATs and different DACs, so that could very well be the reason for the difference in your opinions.

We did our experiments on a couple of very high quality 2 channel systems in dedicated rooms, with good quality gear including Aqua, Lampizator, and Chord dacs mostly to compare against dedicated servers we use. The pi4 was quite capable in these systems, I was surprised. I don't know if I'd hear some of the differences in my second system, I didn't bother to experiment. I put the pi on the network, and am running usb to the dac.  It's very possible that in a desktop or headphone setup, some of these differences will be negligible.

[Steidl Guitars]

I'm sorry to be a contrarian because I know we're all here to help...

If you have to go Wireless, you need the type (booster I think) you can plug in near your stereo and assign channels to, then run ethernet from it to the pi.

That's not true, at least in general.  The built-in WiFi on the 3b and 4 works fine out of the box.  That said, if the Pi is far from the router or the signal has to pass through a number of solid walls or if you're using a metal case, then you might need to do something like what you described.  But WiFi on the Pi works just fine.

Adding hats is not desirable audibly.

It's well established that passing the audio signal from the Pi to a DAC over USB is inferior to pulling the i2s signal through a HAT, so long as the HAT is well implemented.  That's because the USB bus in the Pi handles multiple functions.  How much of the difference is audible is anyone's guess. 

[Rusty Jefferson]

No worries.  I know very little about the configuration of these, I was just there for the listening. As I mentioned, we never tried purely wireless, but I would be surprised if the extra power and processing necessary would sound as good as hardwired, but again, how it's being used makes this subjective.  The 3b with s/pdif hat was considerably inferior to the 4 via usb into any dac we used.

I believe my friend told me the usb is not sharing power on the Pi4, but I honestly don't know.  We powered the Pis independently with either a battery supply or LPS, and powered the usb cable (YFS split cable) with a LPS.

[JohnR]

It's well established that passing the audio signal from the Pi to a DAC over USB is inferior to pulling the i2s signal through a HAT, so long as the HAT is well implemented.  That's because the USB bus in the Pi handles multiple functions.

Hi, the Pi 4 is a different architecture to the earlier Pis, you can't say that what applied to the 3 applies to the 4. The 3B+ is actually a bit of a disaster in this regard, as using the Ethernet port with a USB DAC on the 3B+ will giltch with high-res audio - you basically have to use a HAT if you're using the Ethernet port, or conversely if you are using a USB DAC with it you have to use Wifi. This is not the case with the 4.

[Steidl Guitars]

John and Rusty, thanks for clarifying my comments about the USB bus, which apply only to the 3B+, not the 4.  Sorry if I mislead anyone. 

[pinkfloyd4ever]

Cool thanks guys, this definitely helps. 
In Googling the differences between what seem to be the 2 most popular I2S-to-S/PDIF HATs (Allo DigiOne and HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro), the widespread consensus seems to be that the Allo Digione sounds significantly better.

So I think I've got a handle on the hardware side. 

Any recommendations on the OS to use for cloud-based streaming services only? (no Roon and no local ripped files)

Or any other thoughts on Tidal vs Deezer vs Qobuz?

I started a free trial with Qobuz yesterday and was disappointed to find how much of their catalog is NOT Hi-res. And I can definitely hear a significant difference between the CD quality and Hi-Res quality content, even with my entry-level headphone setup. Upon some Googling it looks like this is also the case with Tidal? Maybe also with Deezer as well? I guess I assumed (incorrectly) that since you're paying a little more for the HiFi tier that ALL the music would be in HiFi.

[Tyson]

No streaming service has a huge amount of hirez.  But Qobuz definitely has more than Tidal.

[Rusty Jefferson]

Kevin,

My friend who set up our Pis says he used Ropieeexl, not Raspian with upmpdcli. His comment was: "There may have been a difference between the full setup of raspian compared with the light version, with the light version coming out a bit ahead.  Ropieexl takes all the pain out of setup and sounded as good as the better raspian setup." https://ropieee.org/xl/

I will reiterate that we found the Pi 4 via usb with a good cable will deliver compared to the hat via s/pdif.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

So I was able to get a gently used Allo Digione for $150.

Set it with Volumio. It was actually pretty easy using the setup guide on Volumio’s site.

Holy crap. Sounds sooo much better than the CCA. Huge improvement. Also no more dropouts so far. And man I didn’t realize how much I missed gapless playback.

[KC2020]

Or any other thoughts on Tidal vs Deezer vs Qobuz?

I started a free trial with Qobuz yesterday and was disappointed to find how much of their catalog is NOT Hi-res. And I can definitely hear a significant difference between the CD quality and Hi-Res quality content, even with my entry-level headphone setup. Upon some Googling it looks like this is also the case with Tidal? Maybe also with Deezer as well? I guess I assumed (incorrectly) that since you're paying a little more for the HiFi tier that ALL the music would be in HiFi.

Try all 3 and see who has the music you want as well see how the streams sound. I'm a Tidal user on a pretty high end system and even their HiFi quality sounds good to me.

Music really is about the Musical performance > Recording quality > Playback quality

Congrats on the Pi set up. It'll server you well for years.

[Mortsnets]

John and Rusty, thanks for clarifying my comments about the USB bus, which apply only to the 3B+, not the 4.  Sorry if I mislead anyone.

I got a Rpi4 and tried it with a Halide HD and Schiit Modi MB via USB.  Results were disappointing -  my Rpi2 with Allo Boss HAT DAC sounds much better to me.

[osullis]

Basically a very similar question I have:

so long it's run through a quality dac, is the streamer hardware irrelevant to the sound? Or does that matter, too? Can't seem to find a definitive answer for that.

For example, would the Lumin T1/2 and TEAC nt-505 have better sound than a RPi connected to a kick ass DAC?

Thanks!

 

[Steidl Guitars]

so long it's run through a quality dac, is the streamer hardware irrelevant to the sound? Or does that matter, too? Can't seem to find a definitive answer for that.

Answers as to whether changes in gear affect sound quality will depend somewhat on the resolution of the system.  In my experience, yes, the streamer hardware matters.  Not only that, but the power supply used on the streamer matters!  In general, these were not night-and-day differences, but small ones.  Still, I found them noticeable.  YMMV.