Rookie questions about BDP2 and Pi

Northman · « **on:** 10 Dec 2019, 11:51 pm »

Hello! I've lurked here for a while and I now have a couple beginner questions. In fact, I posted my questions on another forum and was cheerfully told to pack my bags and head over here. Voila!

I'm new to digital music and my ignorance is impressive--but I'd like to take the digital dive. I'm interested in streaming (I have Tidal and perhaps eventually Idagio or Primephonic); maybe Roon; I also expect to use a hard drive with a range of music files, none of them obscure, many MP3s, AAC, Apple Lossless. That's it for now. No multiple rooms, no NAS, no DSD, just streaming and some music files.

I would like to prioritize: 1) audio quality, including Tidal MQA; 2) ease of use, in terms of the interface but also in terms of avoiding technical issues; 3) reliability--I know it's Bryston (I have a Bryston amp and preamp) but I'm going to ask about used equipment.

With all this in mind, I would greatly appreciate any advice about picking up a BDP. I can't afford a BDP3, so I'm looking at a used BDP2 (with or without the IAD upgrade) or a Pi (possibly used, possibly new). Based on my criteria, any thoughts? Specifically: does the BDP2 sound better than the Pi? Would a used BDP2, perhaps 6-7 years old, be outdated? How important is the IAD upgrade? Also, I've read somewhere that the Pi can't handle the Tidal MQAs but the BDP2 can--is that true? Finally, the Pi would be under warranty, the BDP2 likely not; how much should I care?

I'm not necessarily looking for answers to all these questions (though the mqa question might determine my direction), but I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what people would recommend for a novice to digital music who wants the best sound possible with the fewest issues. If it were you, and you have degrees in literature but not computer science, which would you choose?

THANK YOU!

James Tanner · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Dec 2019, 11:59 pm »

Hi Northman

I will let others chime in with their thoughts on your other questions but I would like to make it clear that none of our products will work with MQA. Here are my thoughts on why that is the case.

MQA “TRUTHS”

1.   MQA is not "lossless" high-resolution.

2.   The "deblur" claim appears to be without merit and the company seems to be distancing itself from using that terminology these days.

3.   The idea of needing to compress hi-res streams down to a 24/44.1 or 24/48 container is moot in the wake of Qobuz and Amazon HD capable of up to 24/192 FLAC.

4.   There is no rationale for why MQA-CD would sound "better" than regular CD as claimed by MQA. In fact, MQA-CD is anything but hi-res (worse than standard CD resolution) since the system robs bits and hence resolution from 16/44.1.

5.   When the MQA blue/green light/indicator goes on and the DAC says it's playing 176.4 / 192 / 352.8 / 384kHz, realize that this is not true 4X or 8X resolution. This is all upsampling from lossy reconstructed 88.2/96kHz.

6.   If we shave off lower bits of audio data, the DAC blue light would still turn on! "Authentication" is at best partial and hence compromised. If they can't guarantee that something is "authentic", then clearly the name "Master Quality Authenticated" is a terrible misnomer.

7.   The digital filters used are questionable yet mandated for "full" MQA decoding.

James
Bryston

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 12:03 am »

I don’t own a BDP nor Pi, so I can’t answer questions related to them. But I have a question for you... do you have a DAC? The streamers you mentioned don’t have an internal DAC, therefore you’d need an external one.

Northman · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 12:38 am »

Okay, and thank you!!! The hell with MQA then! Seriously: I didn't know that, I'm entirely vulnerable to impressive-sounding claims, and I appreciate the correction.

And yes, I'm set with a DAC.

Thank you both for responding. I remain curious about the advantages/disadvantages of a used BDP2 vs a Pi.

gbaby · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 01:16 am »

Northman, what is the rest of your system? If you are striving for musical excellence, and are trying to build a quality sound, I would not get less than the BDP-2 with the new sound card if you can find one.

Northman · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 01:33 am »

My system is a work in progress. I recently said goodbye to some beloved ancient equipment (Maggies, CAL cd player, etc). Right now I have a 2B ("vintage" as they say ... but still chugging along); BP-17 with DAC; PSB Imagine B. I'll likely go back to Magnepan in the next year, wife permitting. I realize this system may be modest by the standards out here, but I'm happy with it. I was thinking about getting a new cd player or transport but, as mentioned, I think I'm going to go the streamer route for now.

Anyway, I appreciate the question. Perhaps one of those BDPs (2 or Pi) would fit better with what I have?

CanadianMaestro · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 02:22 am »

northman, I have a BDP-2 with IAD, bought used. I spend more time with it than with my CDP (a BCD-1), simply because I can play what I like, in whatever order I want. No disc flipping. However, if you can have both, then go for it. Maximize your system's compatibility with various media formats. Not all digital downloads are available as CD, and vice versa.

Also, I've tried streaming. The SQ didn't come close to satisfying me as did physical media, like discs and attached USB drives (BDP-2). YMMV.

cheers

pdkm · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 03:46 am »

I have been the happy owner of a bdp-pi for a bit. I bought the pi used, and for me, it has been a great device. I use Roon 100% of the time (for both Tidal and my CD rips). I thought it was pricey for for a Pi+hifiberry based system, but after rolling my own for a while, and never being quite happy, one popped up on hifishark for the right price and I have been super happy with it. It's a good value when you consider the dependability, aesthetics (especially if you have other Bryston gear), functionality with a screen, and controllability (from a bryston remote) compared to DIY solutions. That said, I am saving up for a bdp-3 because:
1. I'd rather have a simpler display that's readable from afar. The bdp-pi's screen is very tiny. 2. I rip CDs on my mac with xld and I'd love to automate that whole process and the bdp-3 is faster than the Pi with a BOT/the right external cd drive. and 3. I hear good things about the sound quality, though I haven't compared them in person.

I think all 3 of those reasons apply to the bdp-2 as well, though, I cannot speak to the sound quality improvements first hand.

Since you mention Roon as something on your horizon, I wanted to mention one of the biggest values I did not expect moving to a file-based system with Roon: built-in room correction DSP capabilities. Granted, it takes a little time and effort, but for me, it has had a huge impact after the initial setup with REW and a microphone.

Hope this is helpful.

Northman · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 12:23 pm »

Thank you all so much. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows ... which is to say that I'm hearing the gist out here and I'm excited to take this dive!

gbaby · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 06:40 pm »

Quote from: Northman on 11 Dec 2019, 01:33 am

My system is a work in progress. I recently said goodbye to some beloved ancient equipment (Maggies, CAL cd player, etc). Right now I have a 2B ("vintage" as they say ... but still chugging along); BP-17 with DAC; PSB Imagine B. I'll likely go back to Magnepan in the next year, wife permitting. I realize this system may be modest by the standards out here, but I'm happy with it. I was thinking about getting a new cd player or transport but, as mentioned, I think I'm going to go the streamer route for now.

Anyway, I appreciate the question. Perhaps one of those BDPs (2 or Pi) would fit better with what I have?

I think you're working with great equipment from the past. You are no rookie so my recommendation still stands. At a minimum, get the BDP-2 with the new sound card. You don't necessarily need a BDP-3. By the way, I have the 2.5B for my mains.

gbaby · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 06:43 pm »

Quote from: CanadianMaestro on 11 Dec 2019, 02:22 am

Also, I've tried streaming. The SQ didn't come close to satisfying me as did physical media, like discs and attached USB drives (BDP-2). YMMV.

cheers

I agree with you as this is the same sentiment I had after trying streaming. My only problem is it keeps me buying CDs like I have an addiction. I buy them, rip or import them, and store them without ever having played them.

But, after having heard Amazon HD, I may change.

CanadianMaestro · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 07:14 pm »

Quote from: gbaby on 11 Dec 2019, 06:43 pm

I agree with you as this is the same sentiment I had after trying streaming. My only problem is it keeps me buying CDs like I have an addiction. I buy them, rip or import them, and store them without ever having played them. But, after having heard Amazon HD, I may change.

Nowadays, it's mostly downloads for me. Lots available.
CDs. I buy maybe 10 per yr now, rip them like you do, then gift them to others.
Feels good.

Northman · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Dec 2019, 11:11 pm »

I want to thank you all again for your guidance and kindness. I hope to pick up a used BDP2 soon and I'll report back! I have a feeling I might have a question or two...

gbaby · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Dec 2019, 04:25 pm »

Quote from: CanadianMaestro on 11 Dec 2019, 07:14 pm

... I buy maybe 10 per yr now, rip them like you do, then gift them to others.
Feels good.

You may want to reconsider giving away your CDs after importing them. Suppose you have a hard drive failure. I found myself having to re-rip or re-import all my CDs as they were imported using the free iTunes. But, I have since purchased dbpoweramp and I reimported all my CDs and now I get cover art and a much better sound in the form of better imaging, separation and overall more depth and slam to the music. Its hard to articulate the sonic improvements, but its there.

CanadianMaestro · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Dec 2019, 05:21 pm »

^ no worries, gbaby.
It's all fine at my cave. Lots of backups here.
And SQ never better.

gbaby · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Dec 2019, 06:42 pm »

Quote from: CanadianMaestro on 12 Dec 2019, 05:21 pm

^ no worries, gbaby.
It's all fine at my cave. Lots of backups here.
And SQ never better.

I am sure you are getting great sound with those Vienna Acoustics. These are the speakers I auditioned with my SP3.

I just couldn't afford them.

CanadianMaestro · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Dec 2019, 07:11 pm »

Quote from: gbaby on 12 Dec 2019, 06:42 pm

I am sure you are getting great sound with those Vienna Acoustics. These are the speakers I auditioned with my SP3. I just couldn't afford them.

Thanks! That's quite a compliment. I've heard nothing but praise from people who auditioned them. My dealer sat me down and let me hear them, in his showroom (not ideal), after listening to me describe my goals. Gotta thank him lots. Been a loyal fan of his dealership since.
Haven't felt any urge to "upgrade". They now sell in Canada for a very steep 7-8K, and getting them shipped to N.A. is a real PITA, apparently. I got them for 3.5K a pair, back then. I'm really lucky.
cheers

Jozsef · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Dec 2019, 05:31 am »

Hi Northman. If your 2B has not been serviced for fifteen or twenty years, the first thing to do is get it checked and have all the electrolytic caps replaced by Bryston. As these things age, the dialectric absorption eventually increases resulting in measurable and audible distortion of a highly unpleasant nature. It is in no way subtle.

As has been said, streaming, for all its convenience will not sound as good as an uncompressed or lossless local file by any means. The only CD player worth buying is the BCD-3. It's expensive but worth it. Otherwise, it's a BDP all the way. As for which one, a look through this very forum will show that the BDP-2 was a feature and speed upgrade which was not intended to replace the BDP-1 but eventually did because everyone wanted the "latest and greatest" at any price. Similarly, the PBP-3 offers an even more powerful CPU which will allow for some new features in the future but that's about it. If you're primarily interested in sound quality as I am, don't worry about it. As for the new sound card in the BDP-2, it was originally a response to supply issues with the one Bryston was purchasing and as usual, when they make something, it's better than what it replaced. As for how audible is the slightly lower noise floor and whatever else that I don't now recall, I didn't bother with it and I'm something of a fanatic for sound quality. Maybe someday, or I'll eventually just get a BDP-4 or maybe BDP-5 or 6. We shall see. The Cubed series units are unbelievably clear and lifelike so a plan to get those is worth formulating, starting with the amplifier in your case. Assuming your BP-17 is the original, it's still pretty recent.

At this point I should pass on some relevant information about human perception that was already old when I studied it at Carlton more than 40 years ago. If any of us compare two pieces of equipment that work reasonably well but we believe that one is vastly superior, we will hear a huge difference in sound quality when we think we are hearing the better unit. It doesn't matter what is actually playing because we hear beautiful sound when told that the good device is in the system and it will sound rotten when the inferior device is what we believe is playing. I've been caught out myself, more than once, but the reality is that this is how we are made so embarrassment is pointless. It's not entirely stupid to listen for sound quality but controlling all the variables that you can first is always a good idea. Start with solid information and then if the system doesn't sound great then you can look for the problem. (It in all likelihood will be badly recorded music.) Good luck and have fun!

TJ-Sully · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Dec 2019, 11:29 am »

Quote from: James Tanner on 10 Dec 2019, 11:59 pm

Hi Northman

I will let others chime in with their thoughts on your other questions but I would like to make it clear that none of our products will work with MQA. Here are my thoughts on why that is the case.

MQA “TRUTHS”

1.   MQA is not "lossless" high-resolution.

2.   The "deblur" claim appears to be without merit and the company seems to be distancing itself from using that terminology these days.

3.   The idea of needing to compress hi-res streams down to a 24/44.1 or 24/48 container is moot in the wake of Qobuz and Amazon HD capable of up to 24/192 FLAC.

4.   There is no rationale for why MQA-CD would sound "better" than regular CD as claimed by MQA. In fact, MQA-CD is anything but hi-res (worse than standard CD resolution) since the system robs bits and hence resolution from 16/44.1.

5.   When the MQA blue/green light/indicator goes on and the DAC says it's playing 176.4 / 192 / 352.8 / 384kHz, realize that this is not true 4X or 8X resolution. This is all upsampling from lossy reconstructed 88.2/96kHz.

6.   If we shave off lower bits of audio data, the DAC blue light would still turn on! "Authentication" is at best partial and hence compromised. If they can't guarantee that something is "authentic", then clearly the name "Master Quality Authenticated" is a terrible misnomer.

7.   The digital filters used are questionable yet mandated for "full" MQA decoding.

James
Bryston

Nicely said James! Thanks for this.

TJ

TJ-Sully · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Dec 2019, 11:35 am »

good points Jozsef. I am still using my BDP1 and love it. BDP2 is arriving soon, can't wait!

Northman, I might still have my BDP1 for awhile if you are interested.
Also, for your system, I would look to upgrade your amplifier as a fist step! You can get a used BDP1 for less than $1G. and use the extra cash to pick up a 4B!:). lol.

cheers
TJ