[flavo]

TLDR: In reviews I hear monitors frequently being called small sounding. Is this because they don't have the lower frequencies properly covered and with good subs, would sound "large"?

In general, in my head, it makes sense to keep the boxes separate.  A quality sub and a quality monitor should sound better then your average Hifi tower, no?

And, my story.

I'm putting together a new set of speakers for my unusually shaped room.  Photo proof here. The highest point in my room is 6.5' https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163796.msg1741364#msg1741364
 
I built and sold the above GR Research speakers because in my room and set up they sounded a bit bright for me and didn't image as well as I would like. After talking to Danny (after I sold them) he explained to me why they were bright and they could have been easily fixed. And I'm no expert on set up, so the imaging was likely my issue as well. I say that as not to disparage GR. I will most definitely be buying from him again.

While I had the open baffle set up, I also had a set of the Tekton Double Impacts. They imaged much better for me in my room, with lack of knowledge on set up and I really liked the mid and treble response I got from them. The bass was horribly bloomy in my room with them though. Unlike the GR OB bass, which was wonderful.

This leads me here. I bought new GR woofers and amps to build new subs as they performed so well for me. My plan was to put Tekton monitors on them as I liked the  upper sonic signature  on them. But am worried the monitors will be bass heavy as well. As they have been called in reviews.

So I'm looking at other monitors to put on top of my subs. Assuming I'm thinking accurately, I should be looking for a monitor that doesn't try to do everything because my subs will pick up the low end.  Should I be looking for specific HZ and KHZ ranges?

I'm also thinking about trying Danny's new monitors
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163940.0

Hopefully the above makes sense, I'm feeling a bit spazzy right now.

[TJHUB]

I used to run speakers with subs for my main audio rig with fantastic results.  The main benefit of subs is that they can be more optimally placed for bass performance, and easily EQ'd to perform near perfectly for the room/listening position.  The main thing is to get the right sub for music performance. 

I now run full range towers with 10" bass drivers in them, and with LOTS of tweaking with speaker position, I was lucky to find a great spot that has great imaging AND balanced bass sound.  I'm very happy, but I'm very lucky things worked out.  If I had subs, I could place the main speakers where they image and sound best, then place the subs where they sound best and EQ them to be even better.

As far as your main speakers, if you like them, then keep them.  If they produce too much bass where you place them, you can used a slick little device I used to use on my mains.  They are Harrison Labs FMOD RCA in-line cross-overs.  Basically you can use them between your preamp and amp as a bass blocker.  They are nearly transparent, and perform very well.  Google them...

Also, based on your pic, that low ceiling is really going to affect your sound and imaging.  I would suggest you try something creative to treat the reflections to your listening position. 

[Letitroll98]

It's not a speaker problem, it's an acoustic problem.  Treat the room then worry about speakers, especially that low ceiling.  I'm sorry, but that foam on the front wall does absolutely zero for your issues.  You're being swamped with early reflections, drop over to the Acoustics circle and talk to the well versed experts there, then come back and ask about speakers.  But since you're here now, your room is a walking talking advertisement for the swarm theory of subwoofer placement.  Check Audio Kinesis and Dick Lajuene for explanations.

[flavo]

Thank you both!
And letitroll, Nothing to apologize for at all.  I appreciate the help. I posted over there a few years ago. Literally everyone that posted gave me different advice.
That's too much and overwhelming for me. If I could hire someone for the day to come over and figure this room out I would do it in a heartbeat.
I will give that page a try again though. Maybe I'll have better luck this time.

[JackD]

If your plan is to put the monitor on top of the sub you are not solving the problems you had with full range floor standers just changing up the parts.  You should look at a pair of monitors that use lower stand heights like the Harbeth's and other BBC monitors do to increase the distance to the ceiling.  Place the monitors first and then put the subs in their best location and it won't in your room be under the monitors in place of stands. 

[ricardojoa]

Why not try to plug the ports of the tekton and see how they sound?

[JLM]

Yes, treat the room first.  Talk with GIK (here at Audio Circle) and be ready to send them full room details including dimensions.  I use ten 244 panels in my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft room.  Throw out those apparent open cell foam panels on the front wall, they're red herrings and worse than useless. 

Second plan on adding a third (or fourth) small sub after reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition, the layman's consummate guide for in-room acoustics.  Your room appears to be long/skinny and will act like a giant pipe (the length of the room will be the primary bass resonance).  Multiple subs carefully positioned should help.  Note that the subs don't have to be matching.  I have the 1st edition and use 3 subs.

Also recommend using REW (Room EQ Wizard) or Dirac with calibrated microphone to adjust room response, but only after treating the room and adding a 3rd or 4th sub.  Be careful not to try over boosting narrow bass dips as that can push amplifiers to clip and blow speaker cones.  (A 20 dB boost equals 100 times the power and 30 dB boost equals a 1,000 times the power as wattage versus dB's is a logarithmic relationship.)

Agree with above that sub and monitor locations should not coincide for the best performance of each and with your lower ceiling lower monitor positions would be good (get it away from that sloped ceiling!).  In my room speakers are 35 inches from side walls and 59 inches from front wall in a 78 inch equilateral triangle setup and the subs are staggered away from the corners.  Based on the work of Toole, full range tower speakers are dinosaurs.

In general don't like MTM, which forces you to listen in exactly mid-height but with your low ceiling could be a benefit as surfaces above and below are somewhat cancelled out.  Attended a demonstration years ago of expensive MTMW speakers and went forward to snap a picture of the gang while listening.  Their heads were bobbing up and down trying to find that mid-height spot, it was actually comical but sad.  Note that most MTM is done to balance the higher efficiency tweeter with the lower efficiency mids/woofers.

I'd lower the TV to get it closer to the speakers so the picture and sound coincide.  I go between listening to the TV with and without the 5.1 system and even with good positioning of the LF, center, and RF speakers get better blending of picture and sound with the TV.

[flavo]

Lot's of good info in there. Thanks JLM. I definitely will be getting the next set further away from the ceiling.

As for the closed cell diffusers, for one, I'm using the one on the right to sort of cover up the hole that is created by the "cubby" behind the speaker.
Here in lies the problem. Those are considered to be pretty good diffusers and depending on who you ask they are or aren't great where they are.
I'd considered putting something similar at the first point of reflection on the ceiling as well.

I've also got DIY Owens bass traps in the corners and my large area rug starts right where the photo starts.

You're absolutely right about the pipe shape of the room. roughly 14x28 I think. I've already got 2 other subs in here for the 5.2 set up. I wish it were easier to utilize those for the swarm effect.
But I have them set up rather heavy in the rumble department for action type movies. I don't want to fiddle with them every time I listen to music. I'm assuming I'm SOL on that one? 

I'll contact GIK again. I feel I need I professional help over here. The last time I contacted them I feel like I got lack luster care.
I wonder if there is someone I can email specifically so I know I'm dealing with someone who know's their stuff?

[Rusty Jefferson]

Lots of good comments.  I like the idea of the new GR monitors with his subs. Those really intrigue me. I would build/buy stands like the Mapleshade Gibraltar (https://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerstands.php) that are lower to the floor and tilted back.

Most importantly, I'd turn everything 90 degrees and put them on the long wall.  With that double angled ceiling, having the speakers on the wall to the right side of your picture and chair/sofa on the left wall would likely be a huge improvement in all respect.

[JLM]

[quote author=flavo link=topic=166065.msg1764196#msg1764196 date=1572030026}
As for the closed cell diffusers, for one, I'm using the one on the right to sort of cover up the hole that is created by the "cubby" behind the speaker.
Here in lies the problem. Those are considered to be pretty good diffusers and depending on who you ask they are or aren't great where they are.
I'd considered putting something similar at the first point of reflection on the ceiling as well.

I've also got DIY Owens bass traps in the corners and my large area rug starts right where the photo starts.

You're absolutely right about the pipe shape of the room. roughly 14x28 I think. I've already got 2 other subs in here for the 5.2 set up. I wish it were easier to utilize those for the swarm effect.
But I have them set up rather heavy in the rumble department for action type movies. I don't want to fiddle with them every time I listen to music. I'm assuming I'm SOL on that one? 
[/quote]

Don't confuse diffusors with absorbers.  Diffusors scatter sound (above 1,100 Hz typically via non-absorbent "teeth" of ideally differing depths).  Absorbers work farther down the frequency range.  Sorry don't know anyone at GIK, but professional advice will direct you to which you need.  Those open cell foam panels are functionally neither, they're sold to look like whichever you think you want.  And they're useless for "covering up" a cubby hole.  Note that room irregularities aren't necessarily bad.  By your stated room dimensions you have bass echo at 40 and 80 Hz, and multiples thereof (160, 240 Hz) until sound behaves in rays versus waves (read Toole).  Unfortunately a 1:2 room dimension ratio is very bad as they reinforce each other at those multiples.  Shortening the room by building a wall to create a 14ft x 22.68ft space would be an excellent move.

GIK absorbers use Owens Corning 703 high density fiberglass, a highly effective material that can work well into bass frequencies.  They even sell "range limiter" 244 panels to emphasize absorbency below 200 Hz (4 of my 244 panels are such). 

Confused by your response that you have two other subs for a 5.2 system.  Wouldn't that make a 5.4 system?  If that's the case, again read Toole and position accordingly.  I'm more of an accuracy kind of guy, so would want tight/deep bass for everything.  But if you use REW or Dirac you can switch between settings if you want to go "movie mode".  Have you considered a butt rumbler for movies?

[gab]

  Based on the work of Toole, full range tower speakers are dinosaurs.

JLM - so exactly what do you call the JBL speaker in his living room then? see the link that follows.....

https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/2019/03/06/The-Ultimate-Real-World-Home-Theater-and-Listening-Room

[Brettio]

Dinosaurs in a tastefully decorated room vs Tooles fugly room?  I’ll take my dinosaurs every day.  Want ‘being there’ sound? Get out and go to a concert. 

[JLM]

JLM - so exactly what do you call the JBL speaker in his living room then? see the link that follows.....

https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/2019/03/06/The-Ultimate-Real-World-Home-Theater-and-Listening-Room

Thanks for the link.  Working for Harmon International (owner of JBL and Revel), I'm sure he got the Revel Salon 2's (very good dinosaur speakers) for very cheap.  And with 4 subs in his setup, I'm sure most of the 3 woofers each are coasting.  Previously he had a pair of JBL's (unknown model).  I have 15 year old floor standing speakers but bass wise they coast with 3 subs in the room. 

The point being, the ideal in-room place to generate bass is nearly opposite that of midrange/treble and bass output should be adjustable to the room.  Large full range speakers are expensive to build, ship, and resale.  They work best in very large rooms (bigger than residential).  Bass behaves as waves, up to the "cross over" (Schroeder) frequency which is roughly 120-200 Hz (room dependent) so should be generated from near corners.  Above that sound behaves as rays and defines imaging and should be generated away from walls in a symmetrical layout.  Side-by-side bass generators double the standing wave echo in the room perpendicular to their setup, the frequency being determined by that room dimension (speed of sound in air = 1130 ft per second divided by room dimension). 

Those bass peaks, even in a well treated room, can be 20 dB.  A pair of simple full range speakers alone has no way of adjusting those peaks, it's simply a function of room dimensions and the laws of physics.  But by using properly placed multiple subs, in-room bass response can be somewhat tamed.  So room shape should be the first step, followed by effective acoustical treatments and use of multiple subwoofers.  The final step is applying room correction DSP in the form of REW (Room EQ Wizard) or Dirac.  As Earl Geddes says, deal with physical problems by physical means first, then apply DSP. 

[JLM]

Dinosaurs in a tastefully decorated room vs Tooles fugly room?  I’ll take my dinosaurs every day.  Want ‘being there’ sound? Get out and go to a concert.

Aesthetic tastes aside, don't know what Toole would have for a strictly stereo setup.  I own 15 year old floor standing speakers too, but hardly consider them a tasteful way to decorate a room, they make a clear statement that it is a purpose driven listening room.

What sort of concerts are you thinking of?  Most small ensembles nowadays use PA speakers in in auditoriums, big concerts in arenas  that have horrible acoustics use brutish speakers, neither are ideal and only allow you to compare your setup versus someone else's.  The only gold standard is unamplified live performances. 

[Brettio]

Unlike Lewbowski’s rug, my towers don’t tie the room together.  Rather they are tolerated by my better half for me to enjoy music, acoustic warts and all (no acoustic treatment, pushed back close to the back wall, etc).  They’re no doubt noticeable but then hopefully forgotten/forgiven by most in the big picture of the room. 

I am the first to admit that any stereo equipment in our living room is a compromise and that’s by choice.  I do have a much better space for dedicated listening but it’s a room away from my young family and with my limited time each day I’ll take family every time.

Regarding concerts.  Having attended many live performances and concerts, the things I’ve taken one thing away from each are the experience and memories of not only the sounds but the people I attended with.  To me music is all about that.  Getting out to concerts fills the memory bank.  When I come home and listen in my home it’s a way of tapping into those (mostly good) experiences.

Do I have upgradetitis trying to get equipment that imitates instruments the way I think they ‘should’ sound? Yep, but I’ve explained my tolerance for compromise and the enjoyment my dinosaurs bring.  And a room like Dr Tooles will always make me laugh.

[Rusty Jefferson]

This thread is starting to go sideways, we should bring it back in.

TLDR: In reviews I hear monitors frequently being called small sounding. Is this because they don't have the lower frequencies properly covered and with good subs, would sound "large"?.... 

....So I'm looking at other monitors to put on top of my subs. Assuming I'm thinking accurately, I should be looking for a monitor that doesn't try to do everything because my subs will pick up the low end.  Should I be looking for specific HZ and KHZ ranges? ......

Rereading your post, there are a couple points.  Small woofers shouldn't be asked to play low frequencies if your music will be played at high sound pressure levels, and especially if being used in home theater if you like it loud. Small woofers trying to play low frequencies (even if they can't do it) are distorting and could easily be damaged trying to reproduce program material with extremely low frequencies like a movie soundtrack or orchestra crescendo.

 If you electrically crossover the monitors at say 200hz so they don't reproduce low frequencies, you'll likely have directionality issues with the subs trying to play up that high, though I know some will disagree. My experience has been you can hear the hole in midbass between monitors and subs in most cases.

Floor standers do have the advantage of a 3rd (or more) driver to play between the midrange and sub, now frequently called a midbass coupler.  Maybe an 8" or 10" woofer (or several smaller woofers) playing between say 250hz and 60hz.  More power handling and less distortion/power compression, i.e. the reason small speakers don't sound large even with subs. 

A narrow floorstander with T/M/W/W may be a better option in that room since you're doing home theater also.  Ideally one that isn't ported (or can be blocked) to better mate with the subs.

[JLM]

Personally I prefer 6 inch mid/woofers as they provide mid-bass body that many speakers with smaller mid/woofers lack.  IMO a 3-way (especially with multiple woofers) would be overkill with subs.

[AJinFLA]

The point being, the ideal in-room place to generate bass is nearly opposite that of midrange/treble

No sir.
There is no science to support such an assertion. The ideal place to generate stereo, is 2 points, full spectrum. Bass~treble.

Bass behaves as waves, up to the "cross over" (Schroeder) frequency which is roughly 120-200 Hz (room dependent) so should be generated from near corners. 

All frequencies behave as waves, bass no different. "Room" > "speaker" transition area is several hundred Hz in small rooms.

Corners are a great place to maximize bass loading for LF output...and simultaneously maximize driving/exciting all modes...and often bad idea.
The reason why Toole uses full ranged floor standers, is because he understands this all too well. He chose those because they can acheive high levels without severe compression down to his subs XO of 80hz (+/-). Having the mains correlated with lowest frequencies becomes easier the lower you go. But that's still no guarantee. Using a full ranged speaker all the way down, does guarantee this.
His setup is for both HT and music, a key distinction vs a 2ch stereo music only.
Integrating subs with small mains can be tricky unless knowledge and measuring capability are part of the endeavour. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

[Letitroll98]

Interesting insight AJ.  I too use full range tower speakers and find integrating subs above the 40-50hz range to be problematic at best.  I'm not presently using any of my subs because I don't need them for the music I listen to and low bass frequencies cause more problems than I'm willing to solve now.  But when I had huge bass traps and measured everything my subs never crossed over above 50hz.